16-03-2003 22:40									#241
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MTG, Obviously, you do not care for the UN being an effective organ for security. If the UN is unwilling to act with such a extreme case as Iraq, it will never act. That is the only conclusion fair minded people can reach.

	16-03-2003 22:49									#242
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Why is this such a "extreme case"? Honestly, the only reason that the inspections regime lasted till 1998 and all those sanctions were passed were the insistance of the US and UK to keep such a course. The rest of the world, even iraq's neighbors would have just let the issue die.

They had a very interesting article in the times a few day ago (Friday). You know, it seems that in the Charter of the UN, the UN was actually supposed ot have its own forces, to be provided by member states and lead by a strategic council of General to make the decisions. Obviously that never came into being.

As long as states think they can get away with ginoring the UN (states such as NK, Iraq, the US), the UN will be unable to do much.

	16-03-2003 22:51									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The UN's credibility is nessecarily faltered when Iraq was allowed to piss on it. Iraq has sucsesfully defied the UN for 12 years. 1441 called for full, immediate, absolute disarmanent.

Isreal has defied it for almost 36 years, with US backing the whole time.

quote: The UN is a negative influence on our international affairs because it seeks to give hostile powers such as France, Russia, and China a veto over our foreign policy.

One of the purposes of the UN was to try and stop war. Since the US is attempting to be the aggressor here, the UN is attempting to fullfill its role. The problem is, the US is seen, rightly, as not even caring about disarming Iraq. The US treated the UNSC as merely some hoops it had to jump through in order to go to war, only to be surprised when the European countries take the matter seriously.

The problem isn't that the UN won't back up its resolutions, it's that the US has never respected it. If the US actually cared about disarming Iraq, we'd be more effective and creative and work with the international community to do it. No, the Administration has wanted war since 9/11, and it thought it could order the UN into backing it.

	17-03-2003 00:01									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon There were even some pro-US rallies in the states that attracted reasonable crowds, although they shot themselves in the foot by having speakers complain about the anti-war movement being a bunch of "lesbians". Way to go to make yourself look like a bunch of dumb rednecks.

**shrug** I heard that comment, too, while watching CNN. Insofar as I'm concerned, it just goes to show some folks — regardless of political leanings — can be foolish. I've heard stupid things from the right-wingers and from the left-wingers at these rallies.

Gatekeeper

	17-03-2003 00:30									#245
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I'm somewhat shocked that this development hasn't been discussed yet:Report: Germany Aimed to Block U.S. on War

	17-03-2003 00:42									#246
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Interesting, but irrelevent.

Bush has made his ultimatum. Blair and Aznar will fall. It's time to make America ungovernable.

	17-03-2003 00:46									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper **shrug** I heard that comment, too, while watching CNN. Insofar as I'm concerned, it just goes to show some folks ? regardless of political leanings ? can be foolish. I've heard stupid things from the right-wingers and from the left-wingers at these rallies. Gatekeeper

Fair enough, but the pro-war protest movement has now placed itself in an equivalent position to the anti-war camp. Perhaps it would have been better to have stayed quiet.

	17-03-2003 00:47									#248
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Interesting, but irrelevent.

Given the French race to reject the UK compromise before even the Iraqis, I'd say that it has a small bit of relevence at the very least.

quote: It's time to make America ungovernable.

Doubt that you'll have the time if the first war is any indication.

	17-03-2003 00:51									#249
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: It's time to make America ungovernable. Doubt that you'll have the time if the first war is any indication.

There are already plans in the works to shut down the financial districts of several major US cities.

	17-03-2003 00:54									#250
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There are already plans in the works to shut down the financial districts of several major US cities.

You're about as illuminating as a White House terrorism warning.

PS Why not comment on the other half of the post? I'd like to know why you consider it irrelevent.

	17-03-2003 00:59									#251
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You're about as illuminating as a White House terrorism warning.

I don't want to give anything away. Seriously, it's already been in the news, massive civil disobedience.

quote: PS Why not comment on the other half of the post? I'd like to know why you consider it irrelevent.

Germany's playing politics? That's news? All sides are playing politics, it's just that the current Administration is very bad at it, and is trying to use a claymore in a stilletto fight.

	17-03-2003 01:01									#252
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lots of anarchists (libertarians ) got arrested yesterday in SF at the march.

	17-03-2003 01:22									#253
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Che, you show vividly why you're screwed up.

None of the things you're proposing or advocating is of a positive nature.
You endorse anarchy, which is ignorant.

Hey. That's just my opinion.

	17-03-2003 01:23									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Vastly overrated. Who will you all come begging to to help with the reconstruction.

That's when we award all those juicy oil services and infrastructure construction contracts to American companies. You didn't think anyone else was going to get any of that action, did you?

	17-03-2003 01:29									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph If it was only to expel the invaders out of Kuwait, why was it necessary to bomb the **** out of Baghdad, which is 500km away, and kill thousands of civilians?

Because most of the command and control for the Iraqi units located in the KTO was in Baghdad, as well as reinforcements, resupply, air defense, airfields, etc.

The majority of civilians killed in Baghdad in the air campaign were were killed by the millions of rounds of AAA (up to 100mm size) ordnance fired off by the Iraqis.

I also challenge you to find evidence from a credible source as to the actual number of Iraqi civilian deaths from the air campaign. The worst (and only really large incident) was the targetting of an underground complex that was used as a Corps level C&C center by day, and a bomb shelter by night. Just to show what a nice guy Saddam is, the Baghdad southern air defense sector C&C center was located in the basement of the Al Rashid hotel, where the Iraqi government had foreign journalists stay.

	17-03-2003 01:46									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MTG, Obviously, you do not care for the UN being an effective organ for security. If the UN is unwilling to act with such a extreme case as Iraq, it will never act. That is the only conclusion fair minded people can reach.

Do me a favor and don't tell me what I obviously care for.

Economic sanctions are still in place, as is an inspection regime, the combination of which at least hinders Iraqi development, deployment and storage programs.

Iraq is not now, and in the near term will not be, a threat to the US.

Iraqi aggression has been contained at relatively little cost and relatively little risk.

A US invasion and forced regime change, with imposition on the Iraqi people (whatever they are) of a US approved government may well massively inflame anti-western sentiment throughout the Islamic world, and politically compromise many of the more or less western-friendly regimes in the region. Those leftist, know-nothing peaceniks that run the financial markets of the world are voting as to the risks involved with their dollars and Euros - the oil market is high and volatile, the stock market in the US is down substantially.

Perhaps, just perhaps, there are a few people out there who think that the US is undermanned for the task, and is taking a very high risk approach in a time where the overall global economy and US economy is less than robust. Maybe some of these people think that the US is undertaking this high-risk adventure when there are more critical threats to world stability, and when there is no need for immediate action wrt to Iraq.

	17-03-2003 02:08									#257
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I also challenge you to find evidence from a credible source as to the actual number of Iraqi civilian deaths from the air campaign.

That would be neither an American nor an Iraqi source, because both are propaganda infested and outright lie, at least those I can access here. The Pentagon doesn't talk about its heroic deeds, so I have to resort to numbers published by independent organizations, which of course can be only very rough estimates.

quote: Just to show what a nice guy Saddam is, the Baghdad southern air defense sector C&C center was located in the basement of the Al Rashid hotel, where the Iraqi government had foreign journalists stay.

Yes, war correspondent is a terrible dangerous, but excellent paid job.

	17-03-2003 03:13									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph That would be neither an American nor an Iraqi source, because both are propaganda infested and outright lie, at least those I can access here. The Pentagon doesn't talk about its heroic deeds, so I have to resort to numbers published by independent organizations, which of course can be only very rough estimates.

, there are no "American sources" for air war casualties in Baghdad - we weren't physically there to be able to do a casualty count.

quote: Yes, war correspondent is a terrible dangerous, but excellent paid job.

War correspondent doesn't equal foreign journalist. Nice to show your sympathies by excusing Hussein's use of foreign civilians as human shields. Don't get on too high of a horse talking about war crimes, because you'll fall right off.

	17-03-2003 03:20									#259
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat War correspondent doesn't equal foreign journalist. Nice to show your sympathies by excusing Hussein's use of foreign civilians as human shields. Don't get on too high of a horse talking about war crimes, because you'll fall right off.

A foreign journalist, who remains in a country facing air strikes is a war correspondent.

And I am not excusing Husseins deeds. He's a butcher and I'd like to see him hanging. But hanged by the Iraqui people, not foreign invaders.

	17-03-2003 03:36									#260
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat That's when we award all those juicy oil services and infrastructure construction contracts to American companies. You didn't think anyone else was going to get any of that action, did you?

Who's going to pay them? Looks like its going to be the US public. Sounds like corporate welfare to me.

	17-03-2003 03:39									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph A foreign journalist, who remains in a country facing air strikes is a war correspondent. And I am not excusing Husseins deeds. He's a butcher and I'd like to see him hanging. But hanged by the Iraqui people, not foreign invaders.

There's a legal and professional distinction. War correspondents are those who travel and move with (or by permission of) combat troops and forward combat areas. Baghdad's a very big place (no shortage of real estate), so the statistical chance of any foreign journalist there getting killed is orders of magnitude below what a real war correspondent will face.

	17-03-2003 03:41									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Who's going to pay them? Looks like its going to be the US public. Sounds like corporate welfare to me.

Bush told us he had a plan to fix the economy, remember?

I'm sure somewhere in there somebody will want to put a claim on Iraqi oil to pay off Halliburton and Bechtel, et al, but it should be interesting to see how far that flies before we get reamed in the propaganda war.

	17-03-2003 03:47									#263
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Bush told us he had a plan to fix the economy, remember?

Yeah but I can't see how he's going to do it by running up the deficit and forcing a run to other currencies. I hope he doesn't start effectively printing money or you're all screwed.

quote: I'm sure somewhere in there somebody will want to put a claim on Iraqi oil to pay off Halliburton and Bechtel, et al, but it should be interesting to see how far that flies before we get reamed in the propaganda war.

Doesn't look good.

	17-03-2003 18:28									#264
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The UN's credibility is nessecarily faltered when Iraq was allowed to piss on it. Iraq has sucsesfully defied the UN for 12 years. 1441 called for full, immediate, absolute disarmanent. Isreal has defied it for almost 36 years, with US backing the whole time.

One more example of a lefty responding to a point with an attack on the US or Israel. Never answer, just attack.

Utter garbage.

quote: One of the purposes of the UN was to try and stop war.

Mindless drivel. Another primary purpose for the UN SC is Security. Iraq is about disarming an aggressor worse than Hitler.

quote: The problem isn't that the UN won't back up its resolutions, it's that the US has never respected it.

Two examples of parying an argument with a stupid leftist attack on the US.

Can't you lefties ever change your style?

	17-03-2003 18:36									#265
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm somewhat shocked that this development hasn't been discussed yet:Report: Germany Aimed to Block U.S. on War

Although Bush indicated that he might ask the UN to supervise Iraq, there was a general concensus among the talk shows today that we should exclude the UN and particularly France, Germany and Russia, from any participation in Iraq.

I also know the leaders of the Iraqi opposition have made it very clear the do not want France or Germany involved in post-war Iraq.

Also, there was a poll conducted this weekend that showed France favorable rating dropping from 79% a year ago to 34% today, while its unfavorable rating has shot up from 19% to 69%.

Way to go lefties.

	17-03-2003 18:42									#266
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Economic sanctions are still in place, as is an inspection regime, the combination of which at least hinders Iraqi development, deployment and storage programs. Iraq is not now, and in the near term will not be, a threat to the US. Iraqi aggression has been contained at relatively little cost and relatively little risk.

As to the cost-benefit ratio, since that is all that seems to matter here, let's not count the 60 thousand a year that die from starvation in Iraq because of sanctions. Those are not costs to us - only to the Iraqi people. But, we should not be concerned about that because it is cheaper to let them die that to bring this nightmare to and end.

	17-03-2003 20:02									#267
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That problem might have been solved a long time if the sanctions oversight council wasn't used as a political tool by the US/UK.

	17-03-2003 20:19									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As to the cost-benefit ratio, since that is all that seems to matter here, let's not count the 60 thousand a year that die from starvation in Iraq because of sanctions. Those are not costs to us - only to the Iraqi people. But, we should not be concerned about that because it is cheaper to let them die that to bring this nightmare to and end.

I'm glad you're committed to invasion and regime change throughout Africa then, not to mention Myanmar, Cambodia, and any place else you care to name with a repressive government and people starving. (Since sanctions aren't the cause of the starvation, the regime is, so sanctions are irrelevant to that issue.)

Yes, it's about the starving people.

	17-03-2003 20:38									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Ned quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Economic sanctions are still in place, as is an inspection regime, the combination of which at least hinders Iraqi development, deployment and storage programs. Iraq is not now, and in the near term will not be, a threat to the US. Iraqi aggression has been contained at relatively little cost and relatively little risk. As to the cost-benefit ratio, since that is all that seems to matter here, let's not count the 60 thousand a year that die from starvation in Iraq because of sanctions. Those are not costs to us - only to the Iraqi people. But, we should not be concerned about that because it is cheaper to let them die that to bring this nightmare to and end.

Another example of someone responding to a point with another argument.
Can't you ever change your style?

Well, I suppose you admit then the fact that Iraq is not a threat to the US ?

And about the "starving people" reason...well, see MtG's post, couldn't have said it better...

	17-03-2003 23:04									#270
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quote: Yes, it's about the starving people.

Not really, but the starving people, when combined with the real security concerns, do make the case against Iraq that much more powerful. Iraq is one of those rare instances where realist and idealist concerns combine and complement each other...