15-03-2003 06:10									#211
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to agathon

its irrelevant if we were against it or not. its not gna exist inthe current climate. it could only exist in some future unnamed climate in which the US would probably not be the monopolistic military power it is now.

u'd really need to make the UN its own "nation" in that it could move w/o further consideration or need of support. but considering now if freedom fighters shoot at UN soldiers the UN pulls out of the region I must admit it takes quite a stretch to the day the UN becomes a place where laws are enforced.

	15-03-2003 06:11									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Anyway, the legitimacy of the UN would be in doubt were the French not to veto since the only reason that the US would win the vote is that they'd bribed or threatened members of the council, just like they tried and probably are still trying to bribe Turkey. There are laws against this sort of coercion in democratic countries because it is rightly recognised that it is destructive of democracy. Presumably the security council should in an ideal world follow the opinion of the uncoerced majority. Now you can't tell me that an uncoerced majority of SC members support a war against Iraq. If the US cares about democracy at all it should obey the UN - even when it is not in its interests to do so. In effect it is like this within democratic countries. All representatives to some degree act out of self interest (their own and their constituents') and often the losers have to put up with votes that go against their interests. That is democracy. The same goes for the UN - democracy isn't perfect but it is the least worst system.

If we waited for democracy to work we would still be waiting for Russia to approve a UN resolution to solve the problem we solved for Europe in Yugoslovia. And you are just exposing the farce of the UN. There is nothing done in the council without bribery and coercion of one sort or another. And the tyranny of the majority can be equally opressive if you happen to be a minority that needs some help.

	15-03-2003 06:14									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Rubbish. I favour the coercive inspections that the Germans suggested.

I didn't know you were a peacenik. I wasn't talking about you.

	15-03-2003 06:23									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The most arrogant and gloating country is not in the Middle East...

Spot on! Said nations are in Europe — namely, France and Germany, the so-called leaders of the enlightened European Union. With Iraq a close third, BTW.

Gatekeeper

	15-03-2003 06:28									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln If we waited for democracy to work we would still be waiting for Russia to approve a UN resolution to solve the problem we solved for Europe in Yugoslovia. And you are just exposing the farce of the UN. There is nothing done in the council without bribery and coercion of one sort or another. And the tyranny of the majority can be equally opressive if you happen to be a minority that needs some help.

Duh!

This doesn't count as a refutation. I don't think its any better when the Russians veto a resolution favoured by the majority than when the US does it.

And if democratic will had been followed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be long gone.

	15-03-2003 06:28									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Spot on! Said nations are in Europe — namely, France and Germany, the so-called leaders of the enlightened European Union. With Iraq a close third, BTW.

Yea, at least we can agree, that we hate each other. What would be not entirely true, what concerns me, I just can't stand the Bush regime. But I can't stand Schoeder and Chirac either.

	15-03-2003 06:30									#217
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon to agathon its irrelevant if we were against it or not. its not gna exist inthe current climate. it could only exist in some future unnamed climate in which the US would probably not be the monopolistic military power it is now.

It isn't a monopolistic miltary power and in any case if the US really cared about democracy and human rights they would be trying to strengthen the UN instead of riding roughshod over it.

	15-03-2003 06:32									#218
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Mutual hatred can be a good thing. Maybe all the arrogant nations will destroy each other and only the humble will be left to divide the spoils.

	15-03-2003 06:34									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Vastly overrated. Who will you all come begging to to help with the reconstruction.

Nobody. We did just fine helping to rebuild those fools in Western Europe following World War II with the Marshall Plan. If it comes down to it, we can do it again with the likes of Afghanistan, Iraq and Eastern Europe.

I'm not saying it'd be easy, BTW, because it wouldn't (particuarly if folks like you are busy sniping away at everything we do). But it is doable. What it needs are people with guts, patience and the wherewithal to look at things in the long term, rather than in three-month increments or less. It took years to rebuild Europe and Japan after World War II, and nothing less should be expected in the likes of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Call me naive, perhaps, but I'd rather be that any day of the week than some embittered old man who looks down on everything humanity does, or dreams to do.

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	15-03-2003 06:34									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And if democratic will had been followed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be long gone.

You really are a dreamer. But I admire your hope.

	15-03-2003 06:37									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Mutual hatred can be a good thing. Maybe all the arrogant nations will destroy each other and only the humble will be left to divide the spoils.

That would, btw, be not the worst solution, even though it would mean, that my nation disappears along with yours. But Gandhi is dead, IIRC... who is next?

	15-03-2003 06:39									#222
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there's no other way to ride. the UN takes so few actions that are so delayed. that unless ur country is always for non action. u simply have to do things w/o the UN. there's no other way to go.

and the US is pretty much a monopolistic military power. we have 12 carriers. france/russia are the ones behind us if u consider technology. pure #'s there's a bunch of non democratic nations that have tons of soldiers but that isnt that impressive in many situations.

france has 1 carrier and it dont work too well,and its smaller.

we dwarf other ppl in conventional military capabilities, including our flexibility, mobility and firepower.

	15-03-2003 06:39									#223
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I'm going to retire in Thailand. I will watch the mushroom clouds from a distance...

	15-03-2003 06:40									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln I'm going to retire in Thailand. I will watch the mushroom clouds from a distance...

Nice place. Would suit me too.

	15-03-2003 06:43									#225
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I'm off to bed. Maybe I will see you there someday...

	15-03-2003 06:59									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln If we waited for democracy to work we would still be waiting for Russia to approve a UN resolution to solve the problem we solved for Europe in Yugoslovia.

And you would have avoided a great mistake. What problem did you solve in Yugoslavia? Expell all Serbs from Kosovo?

	15-03-2003 07:13									#227
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A lot of these posts seem to assume that the UN is, or should be, a democratic institution of world government. It isn't, and it shouldn't be.

It is an international organisation intended to facilitate better relations among the world's nations and to coordinate international efforts to help populations in peril.

To criticise the United States for not behaving as if the UNSC were their political master is a bit bizarre. To criticise the French for persuing their own interests within that organisation is likewise bizarre.

For myself, I'm just baffled by what interests the French think they are protecting. From the POV of some others, I can see the sense of... betrayal (not a very good word for it) at the break precipitated by the French.

	15-03-2003 07:22									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Rubbish. I favour the coercive inspections that the Germans suggested.

Are those the same coercive inspections that were proposed by the United States approximately 1 1/2 years ago, but were rejected by our European friends at the time as too excessive?

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	15-03-2003 09:27									#229
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I still do not understand what France and the left think they achieved. Saddam is still in power. Is this it? Saddam will not cooperate. Is this what they wanted? North Korea and Iran and virtually everyone else can now simply ignore the UN because in the end, there is no THERE there. Is this what they wanted to achieve?

Did they want to force the US to act without UN sanction, now? Forever?

Are they trying to destroy the UN?

They cannot prevent war, but the certain can destroy the last chance to disarm Saddam without war.

The blood of dead Iraqi's will be credited to the duplicity of France.

	16-03-2003 01:14									#230
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Well on this topic - more protests again today. Not as big as they were last time in Canada, Australia, Britain and the US, but almost as big in Spain and bigger in other countries.

Probably due to less buzz this time because no international organised day of protest like there was on the 15th (esp in Britain). However, I was surprised to see that the Spanish remain undaunted putting out a million in Madrid acc to CNN. Since anti-war sentiment seems to have remained the same or increased in the last month I guess people are waiting to see what happens.

There were even some pro-US rallies in the states that attracted reasonable crowds, although they shot themselves in the foot by having speakers complain about the anti-war movement being a bunch of "lesbians". Way to go to make yourself look like a bunch of dumb rednecks.

	16-03-2003 04:25									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I still do not understand what France and the left think they achieved.

From my standpoint, we forced a little bit of democracy on that Texan bastard in the White House.

We'll see what comes out of this weekend's conference in the Azores, but Blair and Aznar are very vulnerable right now. If Bush pushes forward, Blair falls. I don't know how politics is in Spain, but I can't see Aznar really looking forward to the political consequences of so blatently going against the will of his nation. They need the blessing of the UN if they want to have a political future.

	16-03-2003 05:50									#232
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I'd put money on Blair falling, but I don't think it's a cert. He has a chance if the war lasts less than two weeks all up and has fantastic results. Even then I think its dodgy.

Looks like the protests have affected the SC though - there is no way the second resolution will get nine votes as of today.

	16-03-2003 06:30									#233
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara From my standpoint, we forced a little bit of democracy on that Texan bastard in the White House.

So, you sent Bush a message. But what good will come from this? I think even Democrats are going to have a hard time in the future arguing that we have to refer matters of national security to the SC. We are all going to remind ourselves on how Clinton simply acted when he felt it necessary - did not go to the SC and did not consult Congress.

Yes you forced democracy on Bush. But this has turned into such a giant fiasco that it will NEVER be repeated.

	16-03-2003 07:59									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I still do not understand what France and the left think they achieved. Saddam is still in power. Is this it? Saddam will not cooperate. Is this what they wanted? North Korea and Iran and virtually everyone else can now simply ignore the UN because in the end, there is no THERE there. Is this what they wanted to achieve?

If the UN is simply the international rubber stamp depository for the Wolfowitz doctrine, it's credibility is already destroyed.

quote: Did they want to force the US to act without UN sanction, now? Forever?

Why is it France forcing the US? Are you saying the US position is "give us your permission, we're going to do it anyway? - Gee, that is the US position. How is any credibility attached to a UNSC vote that effectively says "Given a choice between being your pets, or taking a different view on policy options, we'll gladly be your pets."

quote: Are they trying to destroy the UN?

No, the US is. The right in the US has loathed the UN and most everything it stands for. The right's perception is that the only proper foreign policy for other nations is to ask the US what the US expects of them. The notion of consensus, compromise, and adopting common policy based on those factors is considered ludicrous by Bush, Wolfowitz, et al. Which is great until you actually need cooperation from other countries, and it becomes half-assed to non-existent.

quote: They cannot prevent war, but the certain can destroy the last chance to disarm Saddam without war.

Nobody can prevent war when a belligerent party is determined to initiate it. And how is the UN refusing to authorize the US to invade Iraq destroying a chance to disarm Saddam without war?

quote: The blood of dead Iraqi's will be credited to the duplicity of France.

What duplicity? That the French dare to say they'll use the veto power they were granted, as the US has numerous times to protect Israel?

The blood of dead Iraqis will be on Bush and Hussein's hands.

	16-03-2003 19:53									#235
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I'm glad che was able to hack MtG's logon like that.

	16-03-2003 20:19									#236
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The value of the UN is as a meeting place to discuss and debate. When it comes to forming a plan of action, it is ultimately doomed to failure. The whole concept of UN SC resolutions is flawed and non-sequiture. The UN has NO authority.

It should be left to diplomats and other useless types (lawers) to debate and carry on whilst the nations of the real world get on with getting on together and making a living for their people.

	16-03-2003 21:43									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger I'm glad che was able to hack MtG's logon like that.

I just hate it when these right-wing nuts like Wolfowitz make me sound like a friggin' leftie. Occasionally, though, even the left is right.

	16-03-2003 21:50									#238
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I just hate it when these right-wing nuts like Wolfowitz make me sound like a friggin' leftie. Occasionally, though, even the left is right.

Bad pun.

	16-03-2003 22:32									#239
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"
If the UN is simply the international rubber stamp depository for the Wolfowitz doctrine, it's credibility is already destroyed."

The UN's credibility is nessecarily faltered when Iraq was allowed to piss on it. Iraq has sucsesfully defied the UN for 12 years. 1441 called for full, immediate, absolute disarmanent. That hasn't happened.

"No, the US is. The right in the US has loathed the UN and most everything it stands for."

The UN is a negative influence on our international affairs because it seeks to give hostile powers such as France, Russia, and China a veto over our foreign policy.

"Which is great until you actually need cooperation from other countries, and it becomes half-assed to non-existent."

We can get co-operation from other countries through other means then the UN. The US is not going it alone in this country and has a coalition of several powers willing to help the US. I think you are mistaken if you believe that foreign countries are going stop persuing their interests because the US isn't operating through the UN anymore.

	16-03-2003 22:39									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The UN is a negative influence on our international affairs because it seeks to give hostile powers such as France, Russia, and China a veto over our foreign policy.

Compare: "having to consider the interests of other people has a negative influence on my personal affairs because it gives other people the ability to prevent me from doing whatever I want, be that rob, cheat or steal."

Doesn't sound too good this way.