14-03-2003 19:12									#151
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To clarify, I'm not saying Saddam didn't try to have Bush Sr. assassinated, just that there is not a viable case for it, certainly not enough to be used as a justification for war. Frankly, however, it seems like a completely irrational thing to have tried to do. To attempt to assassinate a former U.S. president a year after a ceasefire ended a war that devastated your military would be pretty damned stupid. I think it's unlikely Bush was an intended target of assassination.

Even if it were proven, it's a piss-poor justification, because the incident occured 10 years ago and we responded then (by killing Iraqi civilians, no less). To even bring it up reeks of grasping at straws.

Speaking of desperation, anyone hear the news this morning that the documents Bush cited in his State of the Union Address as showing Saddam trying to acquire uranium for nukes from Africa are obvious, unquestionable forgeries?

	14-03-2003 19:14									#152
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Im intrigued. Have a link on that?

	14-03-2003 19:29									#153
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Certainly, sunshine:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm..._elbaradei_dc_5

	14-03-2003 20:19									#154
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One curious thing that was missing from Blair's six demands: a demand that Hussein must account for his nuclear weapons program. Given the care that went into crafting this compromise, it can't be a mere oversight that Blair forgot to include this. Do the dynamiting duo no longer believe that Hussein has a nuclear weapons program?

	14-03-2003 20:57									#155
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quote: Drake - good. Go cry. You make no arguments, you regurgitate a few spoon fed propoganada snippits, and tell others that they are wrong with airtight logic like "France is a dumb nation" Just piss off already. Jesus Christ...

This is rich, Orange. I haven't heard you make anything other than hysterical doomsday pronouncements for the past few weeks...

You keep going down this path and you'll be no better than Frogger...

	14-03-2003 21:00									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You keep going down this path and you'll be no better than Frogger...

Frogger is one of the most rational, respectable posters on these forums. I know you don't like that he voices different opinions than you, but I don't think you should resort to ad hominems.

	14-03-2003 21:03									#157
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quote: Frogger is one of the most rational, respectable posters on these forums. I know you don't like that he voices different opinions than you, but I don't think you should resort to ad hominems.

My distaste for Frogger has nothing to do with his opinions and everything to do with his constant refusal to admit he is wrong, even when presented with incontrovertible evidence. I have no respect for intellectually dishonest people...

	14-03-2003 21:05									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten My distaste for Frogger has nothing to do with his opinions and everything to do with his constant refusal to admit he is wrong, even when presented with incontrovertible evidence. I have no respect for intellectually dishonest people...

Even if this were true (I haven't seen it), it would be a case of pot, kettle, black and all that jazz.

	14-03-2003 21:35									#159
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Boris, you really have no idea what's going on between Frogger and I, so why don't you just mind your own business? I apologize for bringing it back up, as no one needs to hear about this. It's better for all involved if we just let this die...

	14-03-2003 21:52									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Boris, you really have no idea what's going on between Frogger and I

I imagine it's a stormy love-hate relationship that will culminate in a passionate kiss. But I have a vivid imagination.

And if it's nobody else's business, then don't bring it up to another poster in another forum, because that makes it everyone's business. Problem solved.

	14-03-2003 21:55									#161
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quote: And if it's nobody else's business, then don't bring it up to another poster in another forum, because that makes it everyone's business.

I already apologized for bringing it back up. My bad...

	14-03-2003 23:35									#162
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Wierd thread. I never knew that we had so many people in favor of keeping troops in Saudia Arabia and an indefinite continuation of sanctions.

	14-03-2003 23:37									#163
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Who said anything about keeping troops in SA? I say, pull them out and slap the Sauds with sanctions as well.

	14-03-2003 23:41									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Who said anything about keeping troops in SA?

Where would you move them?

quote: I say, pull them out and slap the Saudis with sanctions as well.

For what reason and how would you propose keeping them from having more leaks than the one we slapped on Cuba or even Iraq?

	14-03-2003 23:45									#165
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Where would you move them?

Home. Maybe Turkey, if they agreed.

quote: For what reason

SA's gross Human Rights violations and their government's support of terrorism. It was good enough for South Africa, and even the initials are the same.

quote: and how would you propose keeping them from having more leaks than the one we slapped on Cuba or even Iraq?

There will always be leaks, but it's about taking a moral stand against an evil regime that doesn't involve partaking in an aggressive war.

	14-03-2003 23:58									#166
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The stated reason France did not support the British initiative were two:

1. The French do not want what amounts to an ultimatum.. make what you will fo that.

2. They wanted a reasonable time table... Britian set out these benchmarks but no time in which to do them..they had still to ask for any extension.


I find this whole: "France won't attack cause of their business connections" to be the opposite side of "War for oil strategy. After all, if it was all aboutt he business connections only, then just go along with the war and claim an even bigger piece fo the pie later! No, the whole notion that France opposes a war simply for bussiness makes as muchs ense as the notion we are fighting this war for control of Iraq's oil.

Also, enough with the "wars of aggression crap". I challenge anyone here to quote us a 1980's newspiece not from Iran that actually blames Saddam more for that war than Khomeini..specially as it wore on.

Also, how come no one has noted that the UN now believe sht edocument which backed Nush's assertion during his State of the Union speech about Iraq trying to buy uranium from Niger was a fake?

	15-03-2003 00:03									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Home.

How would that serve to contain Iraq or even protect the nacent Kurdish state we accidentally created in Northern Iraq if we are interested in "taking a moral stand against an evil regime?"

quote: There will always be leaks, but it's about taking a moral stand against an evil regime that doesn't involve partaking in an aggressive war.

Funding alternate energy programs like fuel cells or developing the domestic oil supply would be of a greater benefit to us than a short sighted sanctions regime that would only serve to harm the American economy while SA goes about its usual routine.

	15-03-2003 00:10									#168
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Sensible post gepap

I always thought that these business relationships just mean that the French have a bit more empathy for the Iraqi people and are more likely to accept things the Iraqi government might say.


As for the war being " all about oil", that never made any sense. For the amount being invested in war preparations, the US could have invested in Canadian oilsands operations and had a MUCH more secure supply than they can ever have in the ME.

Now a cynic might suggest that the war is a handy diversion from the fact that the US economy has been crappy since Bush took office

	15-03-2003 00:11									#169
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Also, how come no one has noted that the UN now believe sht edocument which backed Nush's assertion during his State of the Union speech about Iraq trying to buy uranium from Niger was a fake?

Hey, I did on the previous page!

DD:

When did I say we shouldn't be exploring alternative fuels? I've ALWAYS favored that as a means of weening ourselves off Saudi oil.

However, I think we should take a stand on Saudi behavior, and I think sanctions like we hit on South Africa are morally justified.

As for protecting the Kurds, I believe we could do all we needed to from Turkey.

	15-03-2003 00:19									#170
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I doubt saudi arabia would care. the ppl in power would still have money, the ppl w/o it would just have less.

sanctions really work best against guess waht, a democracy. where the ppl who get dumpd on cuz of them have atleast some of the power.

	15-03-2003 00:27									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov However, I think we should take a stand on Saudi behavior, and I think sanctions like we hit on South Africa are morally justified.

What does moral justification have to do with anything, especially in this case? If we are going to slap sanctions on a country merely on the basis of them violating human rights there are several that I would put on the list ahead of Saudi Arabia (ie China to name one).

Options like exploring alternate fuels would be better for our long term strategic interests than the short sighted actions you advocate.

quote: I believe we could do all we needed to from Turkey.

We already have troops in Turkey. I assumed from the "Home" retort that you wanted them all sent back the US. The military appears to have decided that we need two fronts for containment to be effective.

	15-03-2003 00:35									#172
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From another site, I'll just stick here.
It fits.

Is it possible that we are all too hard on the French? - 14th March 2003 01:17 PM

no! From an email...

"France has neither winter nor summer nor morals. Apart from these
drawbacks it is a fine country. France has usually been governed by
prostitutes."
---Mark Twain

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one
behind me."
--- General George S. Patton

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your
accordion."
--Norman Schwartzkopf

"We can stand here like the French, or we can do something about it."
---- Marge Simpson

"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure"
---Jacques Chirac, President of France

"The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is
sitting in Paris sipping coffee."
--- Regis Philbin

"The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any
better, on average, than the citizens of Baltimore. True, you can sit
outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more
stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I
don't
know."
--- P.J O'Rourke (1989)

"You know, the French remind me a little bit of an aging actress of the
1940s who was still trying to dine out on her looks but doesn't have
the
face for it."
---John McCain, U.S. Senator from Arizona

"You know why the French don't want to bomb Saddam Hussein? Because he
hates America, he loves mistresses and wears a beret. He is French,
people!
---Conan O'Brien

"I don't know why people are surprised that France won'thelp us get
Saddam
out of Iraq. After all, France wouldn't help us get the Germans out of
France!"
---Jay Leno

"The last time the French asked for 'more proof' it came marching into
Paris under a German flag."
---David Letterman

How many Frenchmen does it take to change a light bulb?
One. He holds the bulb and all of Europe revolves around him.

Next time there's a war in Europe, the loser has to keep France.

	15-03-2003 01:43									#173
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Thanks SlowwHand for the definitive French post!

	15-03-2003 02:24									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I imagine it's a stormy love-hate relationship that will culminate in a passionate kiss. But I have a vivid imagination.

	15-03-2003 02:24									#175
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quote: Prior to Saddam taking over you are correct...they did have one of the highest living standards in ME. All downhill since then.

Before Saddam the Iraqi economy wasn't much because British oil companies got the VAST majority of Iraq's petrodollars. In the 70s when Saddam was either dictator or the power behind the throne Iraq had MASSIVE economic growth because Iraqi oil was nationalized which allowed huge amounts of money to be funneled into education etc. Things went downhill in the 80s and the US kept things from getting worse because it allowed Kuwaiti ships shipping Iraqi oil out of the region to fly US flags and protected them against the Iranians who wanted to blockade Iraqi oil.

	15-03-2003 03:06									#176
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I think the only person that Bush can blame for France and Germany's stonewalling is himself and maybe Rummy. I'm absolutely sure my dog could do a better job at gaining support, her barking would much better than the constant stupidity coming forth from Bush's mouth. I guess Bush's vaunted strategy of 'name-calling/badgering your allies' has failed him. Who would of guessed?

	15-03-2003 03:27									#177
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Hasn't this thread gone way OT?

Isn't the current situation that the US and UK are aiming for a "moral victory" in the SC if the French veto it?

All I can see here is the US and UK changing their position yet again because events have come out against them. First they wanted this kind of resolution, then that one, then they wanted it passed, now they don't. Blah blah blah.

And as for the "Chinese and Russians are coming around", haven't we heard this sort of story numerous times over the past few weeks? First the press claim that the anti-war crowd are "coming around" or that taking an anti-war stance in this situation is "politically unthinkable". Then it comes to the crunch and the anti-war crowd are as resolute as ever. This is quickly becoming boring - the sooner Bush leaves the UN the better for him.

What's changed now? - Nothing.

The new "compromise" resolution is no such thing. If adopted it will be an effective ticket to war since it will be vague enough that Saddam can always be found guilty.

Now the US and UK are attempting to blame the French for all this and are claiming that they are "isolated". This is so funny I cant laugh hard enough. It is Bush, Blair and their coalition of the bribed that are isolated both from world opinion and from in most cases the opinion of their own people.

	15-03-2003 03:39									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Add the hundred thousand civilians that were killed by the United States in Gulf war one and cynical labeled as "collateral damage."

Yeah! If we'd just left those Iraqi bastards alone in 1990-91, those 100,000 — fascinating number that is, since reputable sources I've followed over the years have *never* been able to pin down an exact number of deaths — people, plus all the folks in Iraq's 19th and 20th provinces (the former nations of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia) would be living peacefully and prosperously in a benevolent nuclear-armed country led by Saddam Hussein!

quote: A war in Iraq would (and will) make Bush and his poodles tenfold bigger murderers than Saddam ever was. http://www.ippnw.org/CollateralDamage.html

Yeah! Let's give Saddam more time to become the equal to the murderers that Bush and his "poodles" are! Woo-hoo! C'mon, Saddam, let's give you another decade or so ... then you can pull a "North Korea" on the outside world and demand economic aid (blackmail) and non-aggression pacts!

Right now, I think the United States should pull *all* its troops out of Kuwait and elsewhere in the Middle East. I'd love to do nothing more than sit back and snack on popcorn while watching the world beg Iraq to let Hans Blix, et al., do their job w/o the threat of U.S. military power. I bet the world would find an Iraq even more arrogant and gloating than it is now (thanks to France and Germany)!

Gatekeeper

	15-03-2003 03:58									#179
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yes the complete joke that weapons inspections will do anything without the immediate threat of war is not only silly. its already been proven wrong. and frankly I would not recommend the US keep 200 000 troops and a 3 week ready battle plan for invading iraq ad infinitum just to satisfy france's power play and knee jerk liberalism.

if france ran it hussein would have just kicked everyone out already. france would have said "hey look see saddam is a bad man" and then been satisfied and gone away showing its complete ineptness. tho hey, it spoke for the rest of the planet. just the voice was irrelevant cuz there was nothing behind it.

	15-03-2003 04:02									#180
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Let's see if I understand this thread: Che is happy because the liberals and commies forced Bush to listen to reason and not go to war. But I thought Bush was a trigger happy, cowboy, unilateralitist who didn't care what anyone thinks? Which is it???