15-03-2003 01:30									#31
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If you think I mind warmonger-ish, you've obviuosly forgotten my AU 206 AAR already.

I meant warmonger-ish scenarios, ones that force you to adopt a warmonger strategy (there have been a few of these since AU started).


Dominae

	15-03-2003 01:40									#32
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I voted for OCC but then I read the thread and saw Arrian's suggestion at the bottom:

quote: I was thinking about a real "island hopping" game... not a 'pelago map, since those give you long stringy (but still pretty big) continents. No, I'm thinking of a plethora of little islands. Maybe a few medium sized ones (room for maybe 5 or 6 cities, if building with 4 tile spacing) but nothing bigger. Exploration & Expansion are fun "builder" things to do. So let's lengthen that process. Lots of small islands (some reachable via coastal waters, some via sea, and still more via ocean) would do that, I think. Say a standard map with 4-6 civs, instead of the normal 8, or even a large with 6-8 civs. It would have to be a user-made map, of course.

I think this would be a great game, combining new builder learnings with a good chance to practice intercontinental invasions.

So this would be my first choice, my second would be OCC.

--Kon--

	15-03-2003 01:46									#33
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Arrian, how exactly would your suggestion be different from the original "Island Hopping" AU? Even if its mostly the same, I think it's a good idea, since most of the current AU "students" were not around for that game (msyelf included). Maybe we could even do the same map again.


Dominae

	15-03-2003 01:58									#34
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I have not actually tried an AU game before but...

the difficulties of overseas invasions are a challenge and I would like to try a game where this is unavoidable. How about a large map composed of islands which will hold a max of four or five cities so one has to do overseas conquest to progress.

Playing a commercial civ would help cope with corruption. Not the Vikings as that would be too easy.

(I have to confess I am in a PBEM along these lines and would appreciate some practice )

Also it could be set up so that the player has to expand to gain additional resources, maybe an island on which the Ironworks can be built, an so on.

	15-03-2003 02:02									#35
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Island hopping sounds fun..

I suggest giving Vikings a very crappy small tundra island to start with. Let's see if with hordes of beserkir they can successfully invade surrounding resource rich neighbours.

	15-03-2003 02:13									#36
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Or...

How about a No Luxury Watsoever game?

Anybody ever tried this? Create a map with devoid of any luxuries. This would force ppl to play with less representative governments, and micromanaging Entertainment slider bar.

We should see how the AI be without luxuries, how their aggression level be affected or whatnot. Wars would be much difficult to be waged and the less used Colloseum would have to be built more often.

Captured cities and citizens would be harder to please. Temples and Oracle Wonder would be a life saver in this game and so on. Of course, marketplaces would be less useful...

What do you think?

	15-03-2003 02:33									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 I voted for OCC but then I read the thread and saw Arrian's suggestion at the bottom:

Did the same thing. I voted for Huge Map as I generally play on one and could learn a great deal - then I read through the thread. Never tried an AU game prior to this, but the island hopping concept sounds like great fun and more balanced than one of the all/total war suggestions

	15-03-2003 02:40									#38
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No luxuries? Ack! Not my cup 'o tea. I'm fairly obsessive about keeping my people happy.

Dominae,

I suppose it wouldn't be all that different from the earlier island AU game, except that each map & civ choice offers different challenges.

Btw, I was thinking of leaving civ choice up to the player, instead of designating one.

Personally, I was considering a militaristic civ on a map such as this, for the cheap harbors (I'm serious). I'm not a fan of exp/mil as a trait combo, but I'll admit the Beserk throws an interesting variable into the mix. I'm debating with myself over what civ I'd choose... Rome, China, Japan?, France/Carthage...

-Arrian

	15-03-2003 02:44									#39
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quote: Have we ever done a "no fastmover units" game?

On a related note, how about a "no offensive ground bombardment units" game?

No Catapults, Cannon, Artillery or Radar Artillery allowed. Would put the player on a similar level as the AI since they use them so ineffectively.

JB,
who allows at most 6 of his artillery to be stacked in the same tile

	15-03-2003 02:46									#40
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I've done my wars without bombardment anyway so they dont really matter..

	15-03-2003 02:48									#41
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Jaybe,

That would have little to no effect on me. I only start using bombard units with the advent of artillery, and normally the game has been decided at that point.

I have used catapults in a limited fashion (bombarding units out in the open to make DAMN SURE my elite unit wins), but not against cities. Same with cannon.

At most, I might end up with 25 artillery pieces in my games. Hardly enough to be significant anyway. I could just have 25 more Tanks.

-Arrian

	15-03-2003 02:49									#42
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Note that the AI is hopeless with Naval units.. They hardly ever muster enough force and intellegence to send galleys of troops to ur island. So Island hopping is really not that hard, other than having the patience to move troops around the sea...

	15-03-2003 03:29									#43
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quote: Originally posted by minke19104 Note that the AI is hopeless with Naval units.. They hardly ever muster enough force and intellegence to send galleys of troops to ur island. So Island hopping is really not that hard, other than having the patience to move troops around the sea...

The AI doesn't seem to mount cross-water invasions in force very well. I wonder if a map of small islands and a ton of water might "force" it to use more naval transport?

	15-03-2003 03:46									#44
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These are all good ideas. I would say that "total war" should definitely replace "always war"... like Arrian said, I think many players tend to do "always war" anyways.

Since I'm pitching big for the Huge Map game, I just wanted to note that, yes, this AU "course" could go on for a LONG time, with no pending committment needed, so that experienced players who don't like the time required to play a huge map could get around to it when they feel like it... perhaps when they bored or frustrated with the "normal" AU course.

	15-03-2003 07:50									#45
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I like a bunch of the ideas expressed.

I'm probably closer to nbarclay's position than any -- games in which peaceful strategies are made moot hold less interest for me personally since I believe war is the "golden arrow" in the human's quiver -- it cures many ailments in many circumstances. I've played NIC and Total War, and there are lessons to learn from these games (IMHO), but lessons which probably do not produce an "Who woulda thunk it?" reaction (again, IMHO).

I would enjoy a "true" archipelago map challenge, because I think it would offer a viable peaceful approach and a viable warmongerer approach -- but offensive war would be a little bit harder with the necessary logistics. IIRC, the earlier "island hopping" AU games were Sir Ralph's Banana Isle and alexman's "Tourist Tina" games -- each offered some early isolation and small land masses, but neither was a archipelago map with chains of 4- or 5-city islands.

Though I am personally willing to play a huge map AU, I wouldn't campaign for it becuase huge maps can be very painful for those with less than a very powerful computer.

I didn't vote.

Catt

	15-03-2003 18:49									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Though I am personally willing to play a huge map AU, I wouldn't campaign for it becuase huge maps can be very painful for those with less than a very powerful computer.

But would you play it?

Pleeeze???

And I mean, hey man, Civ itSELF can be painful for those with less than 24 hours per day to kill, if you think about it.

	15-03-2003 19:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Catt since I believe war is the "golden arrow" in the human's quiver . Catt

If anyone is going to get a Pulitzer prize for posting its going to be Catt

IMO a huge map is still painful for someone with a powerful computer However a archipelago with lots of water would help reduce land area and in turn between turn waiting

	15-03-2003 19:44									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky IMO a huge map is still painful for someone with a powerful computer However a archipelago with lots of water would help reduce land area and in turn between turn waiting

True, but waging war on a huge map requires a considerable degree of consideration... what would be a wide front on a standard map because a narrow one... planning even a simple, one-front invasion can become a harrowing test of coordination... and the tiniest mistake can prove your undoing - just like in real life!

Of course, it depends how bad you've got it.

I can't deny that once the game is "in the bag," a huge map becomes INCREDIBLY BORING. But then, after a certain point, once everyone's railroaded up, all you need your workers for is pollution... so just fortify 'em and keep pressing that spacebar... if you've got a war to fight, that's always fun, even if you know you're going to win!

TO wander a little bit, I wanted to second someone's earlier recommendation of a "despotism only" game. This would be a bizarre challenge. Not even communism? Cold! This would test all our reserves, I'm sure. Anyone agree?

	18-03-2003 02:17									#49
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I'm all for the huge archipelago. I would hope it would be designed to minimize the human's ability to have successful suicide runs.

The AI seldom builds a worthwhile navy... but that doesn't mean they won't ever. In The Power of Randomness I was basically being dominated by Egypt's (who had eliminated Japan and Germany) overwhelming navy. Their land invasions were never coordinated... but the sheer bulk of the troops they sent had me sweating. I'd love to find out what makes the AI build a great fleet.

	18-03-2003 04:09									#50
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I'll go with huge archipelago, but with some islands large enough to fit large AI civs. The AI has big problems with intercontinental invasions, and with keeping any overseas colonies, so we should have large enough islands so that the AI doesn't have to invade to become a killer AI. Fortunately, with a huge map we can do that.

As one of the goals of the course, let us have to determine whether it's worth pursuing Amphibious Warfare and Advanced Flight. Do paratroopers, helicopters, and marines, make it worth the research of those optional technologies?

	18-03-2003 04:29									#51
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I volunteer to set up the map, for the simple reason that I doubt I'll play this course. Let me know if there are any objections/concerns with this. If not, I'll set up the game this week sometime (before the weekend).


Dominae

	18-03-2003 15:58									#52
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Hi everybody...

Now that I'm done with AU206, finally, I'm all for the next AU game. And while I've done the occasional large map I've never done a huge map before. I know that it takes a while on a large map and my biggest worry is that this AU will take to long. But I'll give it a try anyway, and maybe I'll move up from regent. with all that I learned with this last AU game and how far I was ahead I just think I may be ready.

BigD

	18-03-2003 19:24									#53
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My free 1 gold:

There is already a new thread by Yahweh Sabaoth about playing on a huge map. We can 'sponsor' him.

Now, 'island hopping' loooks fun. What about going after Duke Leto's strategy on Caladan 'ruling by sea- and airpower' alone?
Meaning we could restrict our Civ's ground forces to 1 unit/city. Since we'll have a small army, we'll have to reduce enemy units to 1 HP with ships, and later with ships and bombers, before going in for the kill, including capturing cities. Further, if our army is on another island, we'll leave our homeland defenceless. Nice diplomatic play also. The warmongers will be happy too: the more they conquest (interesting logistics!), the bigger their army.

Well, it's just worth 1 gp anyway.

	18-03-2003 19:31									#54
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Sounds good I'm in for Huge Map Arch.

Is it gonna be Random Civs? If you really want to have naval battles, why dont we use the mother of all amphibious civs, Vikings? Should make for some interesting naval battles..

	18-03-2003 19:43									#55
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I would suggest allowing players a choice of civs. Choice of civ traits and UU's could be quite important on a huge water rich map..

French/Carthaginians would both be good for their civ traits and starting with the initial techs towards mapmaking. Or the English with the useful commercial trait and a relevant UU. Or the Vikings whose civ traits are not especially helpful but have a killer UU.

Each choice of civ could lead the game to unfold in a different way. It would be best to fix the AI civs to limit the humans choice and ensure some similarity between different players experiences.

	18-03-2003 19:55									#56
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Please, let's keep the archipelegeo and huge map games separate (the huge map can go on "in the background" while the normal AU course - sea and air power only sounds great - proceeds apace)

	18-03-2003 20:01									#57
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Since no one has stepped forward, I will be doing the map for the next AU course. Here is the compromise of ideas I've come up with:

Huge map
80% water
Continents
12 civs
Civ choice open, but restricted by set AI civs

I also want to do this with PTW, since playing against the same old gang gets kind of boring. Let me know if there are any major problems with this.


Dominae

	18-03-2003 20:34									#58
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80% water....

Are you gonna make 3-4 Continents or just 2? Or is that a secret? :P

	18-03-2003 20:43									#59
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Playing with some maps, I feel that 70% water would be more in the spirit of a Huge map game. With too little water, either you've got pure island hopping, or basically a Standard or Large Continents map with more water between land masses (not that big of a deal once Navigation/Magnetism comees around, and actually bad for the AI).


Dominae

	18-03-2003 21:06									#60
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I would also add that we should play with all 16 civs.

12 civs will leave the lucky player with a lot of room to expand, which will take a considerable bit of the challenge away from the huge map game.

With 16 civs, the huge map is still "full." Wiping 1 other civ from the map is probably equally easy on any setting (assuming you have parity with your enemies, in terms of land, etc.), but on a huge map with 16 civs, your victory doesn't necessary put you in a place of Complete Dominance. You must wipe SEVERAL from the map!

Trust me, it can make a major difference, when you have less time to savor each victory before moving on to the next menace...