19-03-2003 04:10									#91
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Edit: If you aren't interested in my thoughts on opening moves on this map, don't read farther.

In the absence of additional information, I'd stick with the starting position. With the worker available, the two prime possibilities are to move the worker due north or due west (depending on which tile one wants to improve first), in which case something the worker sees could have an influence. The reasons North and West are attractive are (1) they uncover five extra tiles instead of the three a diagonal would, and (2) they put the worker on tiles amenable to quick improvement.

On a standard map, I'd probably move my worker west first on the theory that getting a granary built earlier will make up for the higher growth I could get working irrigated flood plains. But on a huge map, research tends to bottleneck how early granaries can be built (unless you either play an expansionist civ or get Pottery from a hut or AI), and that makes north rather attractive - not just for more food but also for more commerce to research Pottery faster. (Not that it makes sense to work the flood plains before it's irrigated, of course.)

By the way, Dominae, how in the world did you come up with Russia and the Aztecs as two of the playable civs? Neither of those would be anywhere near my list of favorites for these settings. And I assume we're using 13 rather than 16 civs (including the player) after all?

Last edited by nbarclay on 19-03-2003 at 05:02

	19-03-2003 04:21									#92
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Catt, I edited the post I think you were referring to. But why did your quote censor my post (does 'Poly not like the word 'p opping'?).

Nathan, we're playing with all 16 civs. 12 of the AIs are set in both stock and PTW versions (the 12 are different in both versions), while the 3 other ones are placed randomly in the pre-set start locations. These locations should not be critical to the course of the game.

Egyptians: Appears to be a favorite.

French/Carthaginians: Arguably the best Huge map civs.

Russians: The power of Expansionist scales with map size. Scientific should be interesting with the new patch. Cossacks will definitely see play on this map (I doubt I'm revealing much by saying that the game will be far from over come Military Tradition).

Aztecs: Jags double as Scouts even better on larger maps. Because of this, they can conceivably be played peacefully to great effect, focusing on Culture.

Spanish: Might as well throw in one "bad" civ to add a little flavor to the AARs. Commercial/Religious should not be that horrible either, considering the amount of space available.


Dominae

	19-03-2003 04:26									#93
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General hints (i.e. hints not tied to spoiler information) don't belong mixed in with a spoilers thread. They fit better in the game thread. And the question of what to do in one's first move is definitely not tied to spoiler information (except perhaps with regard to one's choice of civs), since what Dominae posted is no different from what we'll see when we load up the game.

I think some discussion of options for opening moves here would be worthwhile so people can have some time to think about their options and take advantage of each other's thoughts. It might mean most or all of us end up starting the same way (aside from the Russians/everyone else issue), but it would be a learning experience, and isn't learning what AU is supposed to be about?

Nathan

	19-03-2003 04:38									#94
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Dominae, I hope you're making the PtW version compatible with 1.14 since not everyone has (or can get) 1.21 yet. (Personally, I'd be pushed into having dual installations since I still need 1.14 for some PBEM games that haven't made the switch yet.)

Aztecs as peaceful builders??? They're religious/militaristic if I recall correctly, so a religious/expansionistic civ with real scouts would almost certainly do better in such a role.

Speaking of expansionists, if I were playing an expansionistic civ, I'd take America over Russia. Granted, America's UU doesn't do much good, but even in 1.21, I view Industrious as more useful than Scientific. Then again, since I'll be playing either Egypt or France (or maybe Carthage), it doesn't matter that much to me.

	19-03-2003 04:50									#95
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Having never put the effort into a Huge game I was thinking about going for a HOF game.

Can I use the MOD if this my goal? I seem to recall that you have to play stock to make the HOF.

	19-03-2003 04:59									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Catt, I edited the post I think you were referring to. But why did your quote censor my post (does 'Poly not like the word censored?).

I manually censored your quote (and did so again!) - so as not to defeat the purpose of the editing -- i.e., eliminating reference to one of the principal factors weighing in my decision to build or move, a factor which you hadn't considered and thought was interesting (and, consequently, was perhaps spoiler info?).

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay General hints (i.e. hints not tied to spoiler information) don't belong mixed in with a spoilers thread. They fit better in the game thread. And the question of what to do in one's first move is definitely not tied to spoiler information (except perhaps with regard to one's choice of civs), since what Dominae posted is no different from what we'll see when we load up the game. I think some discussion of options for opening moves here would be worthwhile so people can have some time to think about their options and take advantage of each other's thoughts. It might mean most or all of us end up starting the same way (aside from the Russians/everyone else issue), but it would be a learning experience, and isn't learning what AU is supposed to be about?

I'd rather not be exposed to anyone's moves or tactics *(and the reasons for such moves) until I've been forced to make my own decisions. My comments (since edited) were specific, and could influence others' opening moves. I do want to learn (and agree that AU is all about learning), but I want to learn by thinking on my own and then seeing how others came to different conclusions -- a "learn as you play" approach strikes me more as a form of a "succession game" than a compared-results AU game.

We experimented for a few AU games with 3 different threads: (1) game thread; (2) general hints and tips; and (3) spoilers. I prefer when the game thread is used just as a download location and a location to ask questions about game set-up, possible bugs etc. Although a "general hints and tips" thread might be appropriate for my since-edited comment, I would probably still have modified it to be more generalized than an advocation for a specific move; and I think having a general hints thread and a spoiler thread is overkill. My comments as posted -- my thoughts on build or move, and the reasons why -- strike me as quintessentially "spoiler info" -- they don't necessarily spoil the game by revelaing information about the map, opponents, etc., but they spoil the individual thought process that we all apply to each specific move.

Catt

	19-03-2003 04:59									#97
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Last I checked, you also have to play a random map for a HOF shot, so the fact that Dominae created the map for this game would disqualify it in any case.

	19-03-2003 05:07									#98
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If we don't want general tips in the game download thread, I think we need a "Hints and tips" thread separate from the spoilers thread. The idea of forcing people who want general hints and tips oriented toward, but not revealing spoiler information about, a specific game to read a thread with spoilers (including screenshots) in it makes no sense to me.

If we don't want a separate thread, people could include a warning (like I went back and added to my post regarding opening moves) so people who want to play without being influenced by the thoughts of others can avoid reading such posts.

	19-03-2003 05:20									#99
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If we don't want a separate thread, people could include a warning (like I went back and added to my post regarding opening moves) so people who want to play without being influenced by the thoughts of others can avoid reading such posts.

A warning works well enough, I suppose (in the absence of spoiling screenshots). I know how little I like being exposed to other's thinking before I play an AU game, so that I'll err on the side of caution (don't fear for me though in the face of your post, I think I came to a different conclusion than you did and your intervention hasn't yet swayed me ). Of course I really want to be exposed to others' thinking - that's why I play AU - but I want it to come after I've been forced to think through the issue as well. Nothing like the feeling of to drive home an important lesson, and I just don't get that feeling unless I have made a mistake (i.e., already acted).

I think we used a separate "hints and tips" thread for only a few AU games (Son of SVC rings a bell) and my impression was that they were underutilized -- most of the good tidbits came through in the related spoiler threads. I'm not opposed to them in any way, I just thought we'd largely abandoned the practice.

Catt

	19-03-2003 05:27									#100
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The "hints and tips" threads were never intended to be all that big in size because there's a limit to how much information can be provided without getting into spoiler territory. On the other hand, they were a good place to discuss ideas for using particular civs, playing particular map settings, and such, and I kind of miss them. I'm not sure how much they disappeared because a conscious decision was made to get rid of them and how much just because people didn't think about creating them.

	19-03-2003 05:27									#101
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Huge map... I'll have to respectfully decline

I'm already playing a huge map progressive game on the Spanish game and it's taking up waaay too much time on my poor P3...

	19-03-2003 05:30									#102
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Thanks nbarclay I should have been able to think that through on my own

With regards to the opening move. If you cheated on the 1st question of the test it would not neccessarily guarantee you a good grade on the exam.

However I want to know nothing going into a game. I'm often disappointed by discovering late game suprises in the spoiler (like oil in the Power of Comm.). Oh well, I should quit my job and only play civ

	19-03-2003 05:32									#103
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Catt, thanks for editing my posts (I think!). All this discussion will be irrelevent in a few hours when I get the game ready.

Nathan, I created the game under Play the World 1.14 rules. I do not anticipate any problems with providing a 1.21 version.

We'll just have to wait and see concerning the Aztecs! So as not to release any more "spoiler" information (quotes used because anyone can just get this info when they download the game), I'll just reiterate what I said above, namely that I believe Jaguar Warriors to be quite powerful on Huge maps. Maybe I'm wrong, but someone will have to prove me so! Another factor that I can mention is that the AI just wastes the Aztecs' potential, which I just hate to watch.

It's probably just me, but the Americans are too obvious a civ choice on a Huge map, since they have the best traits for this map size. Maybe Aeson's borg game scared me more than I thought...


Dominae

	19-03-2003 05:34									#104
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Cant wait to play it

	19-03-2003 05:39									#105
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If your teacher tells you a question will be on the test, is it cheating to discuss the question with fellow students before the test starts? Not by any standard I've ever heard. That's how I see discussion of the opening move of the game, especially with a map of the starting position already posted.

I can respect Catt's view that he'd rather make his own choices (and, possibly, mistakes) so that he'll perhaps remember the lessons better. But some people would rather do their learning before the test and make a better grade.

Nathan

	19-03-2003 06:02									#106
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If your teacher tells you a question will be on the test, is it cheating to discuss the question with fellow students before the test starts? Not by any standard I've ever heard. That's how I see discussion of the opening move of the game, especially with a map of the starting position already posted. I can respect Catt's view that he'd rather make his own choices (and, possibly, mistakes) so that he'll perhaps remember the lessons better. But some people would rather do their learning before the test and make a better grade.

You don't think I'm going to let you get the last word on this, do you?

I'd reject the implicit comparison of "spoiling" to "cheating." The starting position is what it is -- everyone will get to see it in the game thread or at the very least when they launch the game. I just don't want to have my virgin tableau of options regarding the opening move - and all the excitement such tableau holds - "spoiled" by outside advice and information from other players.

I'd also say that "making a better grade" is immaterial to AU games -- the point is to learn, not necessarily to do well.

I would welcome a Hints and Tips thread, but I just don't know that I would peruse it.

So, all that being said, I will also respect anyone else's view that differs from mine -- for many, I believe, that feeling of is not a pleasant one, and making a mistake early can make for a painful game.

Catt

BTW - all this is discussion over virtually nothing specific -- neither I nor Nathan has secret knowledge of "killer" opening moves for this game or "mistaken" opening moves (seeing as how the game hasn't even been posted yet ) -- wouldn't even be having this discussion if Dominae hadn't mentioned that what I wrote might be considered "spoiler" -- I hate spoliers enough that I edited it.

In other words, I am just enjoying the discussion.

	19-03-2003 10:43									#107
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AU207 should be up sometime tomorrow afternoon. It sure takes a while to run some debug tests on a Huge map...




Dominae

	19-03-2003 11:40									#108
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Dominae, I hate to put you to extra trouble, but would you be willing to include an AU Mod version without Alex's modifications to the costs of Mathematics and Map Making? The more I think about those changes, the more I smell potential for unintended consequences. And the last place I want to play guinea pig is on a huge map, both because of the enormous amount of time involved and because I have so little frame of reference against which to measure the effects of rules changes in huge-map games.

	19-03-2003 19:24									#109
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Dominae,

I agree with your proposal (just include the French )

PTW: I just orederd it from Amazon UK (Civ3 is going to bankrupt me ).

DON'T YOU DARE START IT WITHOUT ME (1 week delivery)

Godspeed to all.

	19-03-2003 19:47									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Spanish: Might as well throw in one "bad" civ to add a little flavor to the AARs. Commercial/Religious should not be that horrible either, considering the amount of space available.

Their traits aren't the end of the world, but with any expansionists around, Isabella might not be able to keep up. A good challenge though.

	19-03-2003 19:55									#111
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Wowza! Never knew how complicated AU could be!

Mountain Sage: I at the very least will wait for you to start. That is, if you promise to start as soon as you get PTW.

I think we ought to all play the game for a good long while, perhaps until the world map is revealed (trust me, this can take a LONG time on a huge map!). THEN we can reveal spoilers.

I can't wait for this to start... Catt and Dominae, you seem to have the greatest grasp of the mechanics of the various threads we need, so I think we ought to all follow your lead.

But for us idiots out there, can one of you include a LINK directly to what we need to DL?

Ok, thanks guys!

	19-03-2003 23:23									#112
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I think we should proceed as usual (i.e. opening a spoiler thread right away and posting whenever one feels ready to). I know I will be dying to know what the others have dome I probably won't be able to wait until the whole map is revealed...

Usually, Dom puts a nice zip file for us to download, you just have to unzip it into your scenario directory and enjoy! It's pretty simple to do...

--Kon--

	20-03-2003 00:52									#113
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We may want two spoiler threads for this one, one based on knowledge of the home hemisphere and another based on knowledge of the whole world. That way people can start posting early-game spoilers before they know the whole world map without worrying about seeing things they shouldn't.

	20-03-2003 00:57									#114
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay We may want two spoiler threads for this one, one based on knowledge of the home hemisphere and another based on knowledge of the whole world. That way people can start posting early-game spoilers before they know the whole world map without worrying about seeing things they shouldn't.

For simplicity sake, let's do one thread, and people who have discovered the other continent(s) can post "Are you all ready for the spoiler?" and after getting others' responses, can decide whether to post screenshots or not.

	20-03-2003 01:01									#115
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People are probably going to be at wildly different points in their games before long. Indeed, some may not start until others have been going a week or two. So I'm not sure how practical trying to coordinate timing for having the world map enter the results & spoilers thread would be.

	20-03-2003 01:22									#116
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Dominae, I hate to put you to extra trouble, but would you be willing to include an AU Mod version without Alex's modifications to the costs of Mathematics and Map Making? The more I think about those changes, the more I smell potential for unintended consequences. And the last place I want to play guinea pig is on a huge map, both because of the enormous amount of time involved and because I have so little frame of reference against which to measure the effects of rules changes in huge-map games.

Nathan, I replied to this some time ago, but I believe my message got lost while Apolyton was momentarily down. Here's the gist of what I said:

I've used the AU mod version 1.17 in its current state. I believe that keeping things simple here is a good idea, since it will increase AU community spirit (it would feel weird if everyone played their own version of the AU mod), and makes the AARs much simpler. I'm also not sure how much of a difference the changes will make on AU207's Huge map.

However, I'm willing to send you a copy of the scenario with the changes you would like to see implemented. There is no stopping you from making the changes yourself, so I might as well help out by not forcing you to look at the map in the process.

I understand that I can be frustrating to use rules you do not much agree with, especially in such a big game. But I think that creating multiple versions of the AU mod is not a good idea, since it would put focus more on the mod instead of the scenarios and the learning. As I mentioned to alexman, perhaps we could have a 3-person panel that votes on which changes make it into or out of the latest versions of the mod (everyone else would propose changes and offer arguments for and against them). Whatever the panel decides would be final. I think alexman has been doing a good job so far, but if there is going to be this much conflict around our little mod, something needs to be done.

I nominate the following 3 people for the panel:

alexman
nbarclay
Catt

What does everyone think?


Dominae

	20-03-2003 01:56									#117
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Dominae, when you played with the revised mod, were you playing a "compete with the AI in research" strategy or a tech extortion strategy? One of my big concerns (especially after seeing just how big Alex's changes were in the AU Mod description) is that it could be a whole lot harder to trade for Map Making at cost 16 than at cost 12. That won't necessarily have much impact on extortionists, but I very often try to compete without resorting to tech extortion.

I'd definitely appreciate it if you would send me a version of the game without the Mathematics and Map Making cost changes. At this point, it would take a lot of persuading (with supporting evidence) to convince me that Alex's revised values have a small enough impact on gameplay for me to be willing to use them.

And I guess I could serve on a review panel if people so desire. At least that way I could be sure there would be a conservative voice on it.

Nathan

	20-03-2003 02:15									#118
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Dominae, when you played with the revised mod, were you playing a "compete with the AI in research" strategy or a tech extortion strategy?

I have not yet actively played a game with the current changes to Math and Map Making. I only entered debug mode and checked out what the AIs were doing.

quote: I'd definitely appreciate it if you would send me a version of the game without the Mathematics and Map Making cost changes.

I'll have it to you soon. If we do go on with this panel idea, though, I hope that this "multiple mod" phenomenon will not repeat itself.

quote: And I guess I could serve on a review panel if people so desire. At least that way I could be sure there would be a conservative voice on it.

I think you're all conservative, just conservative about different things.

	20-03-2003 02:21									#119
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Well, I'm so conservative on this matter I'm a damn reactionary.

Can someone tell me where to go to check out the changes in the AU mod? I assumed we were going to be playing with the "same rules" as always... I don't mind trying something new, but I'd like some idea of what the changes entail.

	20-03-2003 02:25									#120
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Yahweh, check the thread for AU207 (it just went up an hour ago): you should find all the links you want there. Again, you do not need to play with mod rules if you do not want to; the zip file I included contains a normal Play the World 1.14 version.


Dominae