14-03-2003 09:16									#1
	Course description for AU207 Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

We should still leave some time for AU206 to finish up, but we can still start discussing what the next AU course will be. Please vote for your favorite option (and please throw in your own suggestion!).

1. Huge map: Self-explanatory. Should involve some different strategy.

2. Always war: There must always be a red line between your head and another leader's head in the diplomacy screen. This is not so hard, but might be worth checking out.

3. Total war: All lines starting at your head in the diplomacy screen must be red. This should be really hard, and would require a carefully tailored map, as well as (probably) a reduction in difficulty for most of us.

4. One City: Never build more than one city, but win the game anyway. We could turn all victory conditions on, but some would be more presigious than others (Conquest, then Spaceship, then Cultural, etc.). Personally, my favorite option. Edit: This is commonly known as 'OCC'.

5. No Improvements: Never build or control an improvement or Wonder. This could teach us a lot, but is somewhat boring. Maybe best for a smaller map (Tiny or Small). Edit: This is commonly known as 'NIC'.

6. Please post your suggestions!


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 14-03-2003 at 18:20

	14-03-2003 09:52									#2
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae 4. One City: Never build more than one city, but win the game anyway. We could turn all victory conditions on, but some would be more presigious than others (Conquest, then Domination, then Spaceship, then Cultural, etc.). Personally, my favorite option.

By this I assume you mean you may capture other cities (thus domination being possible).

quote: 5. No Improvements: Never build or control an improvement or Wonder. This could teach us a lot, but is somewhat boring. Maybe best for a smaller map (Tiny or Small).

Having given birth and playing out this one let me be the first to say, "For the love of God, don't do it, don't do it!!!" Maybe a tiny map would be less of a headache (talk about an early conquest game in the making), but I'm afraid using a tiny map would undercut the biggest lessons one learns from an NIC game.

I'm not going to vote, but my fav would be the Total war one. And what govt would you choose? Democracy? I think not!

	14-03-2003 11:09									#3
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I would suggest doing the huge map game outside the regular AU timetable, since not all AU regulars will play it and it's likely to take a long time for those that do play it. Of course it will take even longer if we're playing regular AU games alongside that one, but you can't have everything. Actually, having a huge map game and a OCC game (or variant thereof) at the same time would be just about the ultimate in contrasts.

	14-03-2003 12:25									#4
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The One City challenge seems rather fun

I would also go with the no improvements course, but I voted for 1 city.

Total war and always war?? that's what happens in all my games anyway

	14-03-2003 12:48									#5
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How about playing the game through without changing the government - thus staying at despotism all the time?

"The power (or weakness) of despotism"

	14-03-2003 18:18									#6
	Re: Re: Course description for AU207 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by badams52 By this I assume you mean you may capture other cities (thus domination being possible).

No, I messed up. You can never capture cities either (true OCC). Therefore Domination is not possible.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 18:20									#7
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Total War. "Always war" is pretty close to how I play normally, but I've never taken on everyone at once from the beginning.

-Arrian

	14-03-2003 18:22									#8
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo "The power (or weakness) of despotism"

Interesting challenge, but what would we learn from it?

Arrian (and others): Total War is really hard! Just a warning...


Dominae

	14-03-2003 19:07									#9
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If I had to pick from this list, I'd say total war... OCC and NIC are just so far from the norm that I don't see lots of useful comparison ("Hey, I built a temple right away and eventually won by culture TOO!"). My first choice would be Huge Map... I recently upgraded and I THINK I could handle at least until the late middle ages without breaking my monitor...

Barring that... what about a game where naval supremecy is a must? It could even be huge, I supposse, with lots and lots of water. Archipelago, anyone?

	14-03-2003 19:39									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Fosse what about a game where naval supremecy is a must? It could even be huge, I supposse, with lots and lots of water. Archipelago, anyone?

I voted for this idea


My 2nd choice would be OCC. I think if we did OCC we should have two courses: 207a and 207b. These games are short and very different from the norm. 2 games would encourage learning and AU is all about eduecation

	14-03-2003 19:46									#11
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Dominae,

I'm sure it is. No extortion.

Still, gimme China and a spot 'o luck, and I'll give you the world.

-Arrian

	14-03-2003 20:22									#12
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How bout:

7. Geonocide.

Basically close to total warring but you are NOT allowed to capture and assimilate any cities/workers. Every cities captured must be razed, and every foreign workers created/captured must be disbanded on site.

The main objective is Conquest and having your civ's native citizen as the sole survivor of the whole planet.

Last edited by minke19104 on 14-03-2003 at 20:33

	14-03-2003 20:24									#13
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Now THAT would be REALLY hard.

-Arrian

	14-03-2003 21:31									#14
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quote: Originally posted by minke19104 How bout: 7. Geonocide. Basically close to total warring but you are NOT allowed to capture and assimilate any cities/workers. Every cities captured must be razed, and every foreign workers created/captured must be disbanded on site. The main objective is Conquest and having your civ's native citizen as the sole survivor of the whole planet.

Make this a NIC w/ a barracks exception and you have extreme warmongering

	14-03-2003 22:33									#15
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How bout a Huge Map, Total War, Always in War, NIC, Geonocide game?

	14-03-2003 22:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by minke19104 How bout: 7. Geonocide. Basically close to total warring but you are NOT allowed to capture and assimilate any cities/workers. Every cities captured must be razed, and every foreign workers created/captured must be disbanded on site. The main objective is Conquest and having your civ's native citizen as the sole survivor of the whole planet.

Now THAT's a great idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I reconsider my vote??

	14-03-2003 22:45									#17
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Genocide is not that hard. When I played my NIC game, I assumed the NIC rules meant that you would always have to raze a city when you conquered it (otherwise you would get to sell the improvements, which did not feel right).

Again, this would be fun to try out, but what would we learn? I suppose I'm just being a wet blanket because I've done Genocide already.

I know I'm pushing this point, but Total War is going to be hard. Consider that the first civ you meet you have to declare war on immediately. This means that, if you're playing on Monarch/Emperor, the AI's free units are going to beeline for your capital. I cringe to think about trying it on Deity (4 free Warriors and 2 Spearmen, is it?). This effect is also present in Always War, but here you can pick and choose your enemy based on how threatened you feel once you meet multiple civs.

I voted for OCC, but Total War is the one I would prefer to play, by far. Arrian is right in that China would be the civ to be, unless you really wanted to beeline for the Great Library, in case a Commercial civ might do better (Carthage?).


Dominae

	14-03-2003 23:17									#18
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Always war is a moot point since you can just basically reduce a civ to 1 city, keep a ring of defender around it, and stay at war with that civ from beginning to end.

I guess you're kinda right with Genocide thing, Dominae. But in your NIC game, you did keep the captured workers rite?

	14-03-2003 23:36									#19
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Yes, I kept a few captured Workers (maybe around 15 total), but most of these joined my cities. I conquered many many Workers on the continents away from my home, but I never had the patience to ferry them back by Galley. So they mostly just went into a big foreign Worker stack of doom, which grew to size 50 or so by the time the game was over.

Anyway, I can see how not being able to capture Workers can be a big deal for some players. So Genocide sounds like a fine option after all (just not for me!).


Dominae

	14-03-2003 23:53									#20
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Personally, I have very little interest in games where peace and building are denied their proper place. The game is Civilization, after all, and while I'm quite happy to use warfare to bring additional people and cities into my civilization, I find flagrantly uncivilized styles of play distasteful. If people want to go for "always war" or "total war" or NIC or such, I won't stand in the way, but I seriously doubt that I'll participate either.

Nathan

	15-03-2003 00:10									#21
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What would people think of having a huge-map game in parallel with a couple back-to-back "bloodthirsty warmonger" type games? That would, admittedly, leave builders with slow computers in a bit of a predicament. But since both types of games have a bit more of niche audiences than most AU games, the flexibility of being able to choose which type of game people prefer to play could be nice.

Nathan

	15-03-2003 00:14									#22
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My vote goes for OCC. I think there's more to learn with it.

	15-03-2003 00:17									#23
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Let's wait another couple of days to see where the voting gets us. I would like all the AU games to occur sequentially (just my own preference), but I can see the merit of doing the Huge map one "in the background".

Nathan, exploring the various possibilties of Civ3 undoubtedly involves some very warmonger-ish games. Maybe we could try harder to come up with some more peaceful ideas? Like...OCC?




Dominae

	15-03-2003 00:24									#24
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Have we ever done a "no fastmover units" game?

-Arrian

	15-03-2003 00:32									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Have we ever done a "no fastmover units" game?

Not that I know of.

	15-03-2003 00:40									#26
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What would that be? Anything with 1 move only?

Does it mean you cant use Mech Inf, since its 2 move? And attack with Guerillas only in late game?

	15-03-2003 00:53									#27
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I would use Infantry/Artillery (especially with the AU mod). But I do that already, so the Industrial age would not be a problem for me...!


Dominae

	15-03-2003 00:56									#28
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Hmm... the late industrial -> modern age does present problems for that type of limitation, it's true.

Then again, I love fastmovers, so that type of game might end up annoying me.

-Arrian

	15-03-2003 01:03									#29
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I was thinking about a real "island hopping" game... not a 'pelago map, since those give you long stringy (but still pretty big) continents.

No, I'm thinking of a plethora of little islands. Maybe a few medium sized ones (room for maybe 5 or 6 cities, if building with 4 tile spacing) but nothing bigger.

Exploration & Expansion are fun "builder" things to do. So let's lengthen that process. Lots of small islands (some reachable via coastal waters, some via sea, and still more via ocean) would do that, I think. Say a standard map with 4-6 civs, instead of the normal 8, or even a large with 6-8 civs. It would have to be a user-made map, of course.

Just a thought.

-Arrian

	15-03-2003 01:18									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Nathan, exploring the various possibilties of Civ3 undoubtedly involves some very warmonger-ish games. Maybe we could try harder to come up with some more peaceful ideas? Like...OCC?

If you think I mind warmonger-ish, you've obviuosly forgotten my AU 206 AAR already. But that came naturally due to the nature of the map and the civ I was playing, not artificially due to special rules that said I had to fight whether it made sense to or not. There's a huge difference between the two. at least for me.