18-03-2003 21:24									#61
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Yahweh, given that map I've come up with, I believe 12 civs is the best option. There will be no "lucky player", since all the positions are fixed. It should be a fun and challenging game, in the spirit of the "Huge map" idea (I hope!).


Dominae

	18-03-2003 21:36									#62
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As long as there's enough civs close enough together to provide a challenge in the ancient era... (not to challenge your judgment)

	18-03-2003 21:37									#63
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[Edit: Cross-posted with the previous couple posts.]

16 civs on a huge map provides a little bit more land per civ than eight on a standard map at the same land/water ratio (16 civs on a 25600-tile map vs. 8 on a 10000-tile map). So 16 civs would probably be good on 70% water.

In case you missed it, Mountain Sage said in the other thread that he doesn't have PtW. That means we probably need both 1.29 and PtW versions (and if we go with 16 civs, we need input on what civ the 1.29 players want to play). I would have nothing against having some different opponents farther off in order to incorporate some PtW adversaries in the PtW version, but the nearer neighbors obviously need to be the same. Or we could use all standard civs as opponents, leaving all the PtW civs open for players to choose from. If we don't use all-standard opponents, it would be good to get feedback on what civs people want to play in the PtW version before setting up the map so Dominae doesn't give a civ someone wants to play to an AI. (No, I haven't decided which civ I'd most prefer on these settings yet.)

Nathan

	18-03-2003 21:41									#64
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If Dominae already has a good 12-civ map cooked up, that's fine with me.

	18-03-2003 21:47									#65
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay 16 civs on a huge map provides a little bit more land per civ than eight on a standard map at the same land/water ratio (16 civs on a 25600-tile map vs. 8 on a 10000-tile map). So 16 civs would probably be good on 70% water.

Nathan, I second that emotion.

quote: In case you missed it, Mountain Sage said in the other thread that he doesn't have PtW. That means we probably need both 1.29 and PtW versions (and if we go with 16 civs, we need input on what civ the 1.29 players want to play). I would have nothing against having some different opponents farther off in order to incorporate some PtW adversaries in the PtW version, but the nearer neighbors obviously need to be the same. Or we could use all standard civs as opponents, leaving all the PtW civs open for players to choose from. If we don't use all-standard opponents, it would be good to get feedback on what civs people want to play in the PtW version before setting up the map so Dominae doesn't give a civ someone wants to play to an AI. (No, I haven't decided which civ I'd most prefer on these settings yet.)

I have some suggestions as to some we should leave out:

China and the Ottomans.

The reason is that their UUs are so incredible, and on a huge map that extra movement point makes all the difference. It is easy for those two to dominate, and their UUs don't come too late to make the GA very useful.

On the other hand, maybe they should be included just to show their power...

...and finally, I think Carthage's inclusion is important, as on huge maps, they 66% of the time come to dominate utterly among the AIs.

	18-03-2003 22:05									#66
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I think it could be interesting to let people play the Ottomans to see how they compare. The Ottomans are definitely super-powerful once they get their UU, but how does that balance against the fact that their UU comes so late? Contrast that with Egypt, which has a UU that lets it gain a lot of size in the early game in order to bolster its research and production later, or with France and Carthage, which also have options to trigger GAs earlier using UUs and which have lower corruption, and I'm not so sure the Ottomans will prove to be the best choice of civs among all those available.

	18-03-2003 22:15									#67
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I did have a superb map cooked up, but I just remembered that I need to create it the stock Civ3 editor, so it's back to the drawing board for me.

This is fine, actually, as I get to incorporate some of the more recent suggestions that are popping up now.

I was planning on using 13 civs (12 AI, 1 human), but I could go up to 16.

I was going to use the following civs as AIs, for balance purposes: Chinese, Ottomans. I think we all agree about the Chinese, and a case for the Ottomans can be made as well. Since Huge maps necessarily take longer to play but techs proceeds still quite fast, I imagine the Ottomans could be piloted to an easy Cavalry beeline then ride to victory win.

Other than that, everything goes (unless someone tells me otherwise sometime soon).


Dominae

	18-03-2003 22:28									#68
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I think it could be interesting to let people play the Ottomans to see how they compare. The Ottomans are definitely super-powerful once they get their UU, but how does that balance against the fact that their UU comes so late? Contrast that with Egypt, which has a UU that lets it gain a lot of size in the early game in order to bolster its research and production later, or with France and Carthage, which also have options to trigger GAs earlier using UUs and which have lower corruption, and I'm not so sure the Ottomans will prove to be the best choice of civs among all those available.

Not the BEST, and sure, the Sipahi is not optimal in terms of timing... but it is very good. Egypt's UU is virtually worthless, IMO, on a huge world, unless you're very, very clever. It cannot use its War Chariot to seize a sizeable portion of land before the GA ends, and then the player would feel like a real idiot. The Sipahi, on the other hand, especially if put into play before Nationalism, can seize the Ottoman player a good portion of the globe.

The French and Carthaginians are both excellent choices for the huge world, and we might all see the power of Carthage in effect if we have a PTW huge map for this AU. They often amass a huge, unchallengeable empire, unless you cripple them early or get lucky in terms of where THEY get placed.

Not to say that the Egyptians don't have excellent TRAITS for a huge world... industrious and religious never go out of style.

	18-03-2003 22:32									#69
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The power of the Chinese on a huge map is truly undeniable, and the Ottomans can be a powerhouse as well.

Just make sure to include some limited civs: the Romans, the Celts, Babylonians, etc... ones with ancient-era UUs and not commercial as a trait. ...for balance's sake.

	18-03-2003 22:42									#70
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As long as the terrain doesn't get nasty, WCs continue to be useful as 2/3 cost horsemen all the way until AIs start getting pikemen. And while Egypt can't conquer a huge portion of the world with their UU, they can conquer enough to give them a very nice base for research and production through the middle ages, helping them get cavalry relatively early. Then they can really start stomping. Carthage and France can make better use of the land they have, but they don't have Egypt's advantage in terms of ability to go out and grab more land early. Don't underestimate Egypt as a huge-map civ, at least as long as they don't get stuck with too much jungle around them or Greece or Carthage as neighbors.

	18-03-2003 23:01									#71
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay As long as the terrain doesn't get nasty, WCs continue to be useful as 2/3 cost horsemen all the way until AIs start getting pikemen. And while Egypt can't conquer a huge portion of the world with their UU, they can conquer enough to give them a very nice base for research and production through the middle ages, helping them get cavalry relatively early. Then they can really start stomping. Carthage and France can make better use of the land they have, but they don't have Egypt's advantage in terms of ability to go out and grab more land early. Don't underestimate Egypt as a huge-map civ, at least as long as they don't get stuck with too much jungle around them or Greece or Carthage as neighbors.

Well, it is precisely because of cultural linking that I would be loathe to trigger my GA with WCs. It's hard enough as a militaristic civ, taking these bastards on.

Egypt up against, say, India, or even a militaristic civ such as a Mongols, I wouldn't be so worried about. But I'd still be loathe to trigger my GA so early. Sure, you can take an entire other civ out. But you might not have the infrastructure to take out a civ in the middle ages... but I digress. Let's just play this AU, and I'm sure we can both learn something.

Let's be sure to include Egypt.

	18-03-2003 23:13									#72
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One thought occurred to me - PTW version. I would like to play but am stuck at 1.14 until Infogarbage get a euro 1.21 patch out.

If it is a problem to set up using 1.14 then I will try the Civ3 1.29 version.

	18-03-2003 23:19									#73
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I usually play with culturally linked starting locations turned off so I won't have any idea in advance who my opponents will be. The situation with culturally linked starting locations turned on would be rather different, but that has more to do with the strengths of neighbors' UUs than with weaknesses in Egypt.

With Egypt, my current inclination is that the ideal time for a GA is after a near-beeline to Monarchy (stopping off for Pottery along the way). That gives the advantage of a non-despotic GA with a reasonably large civ, provides a fair-sized force of WCs when the wars start, and still leaves a reasonable amount of time to romp before WCs become obsolete. Not that I've tried that particular path on a huge map yet.

	19-03-2003 00:27									#74
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I usually play with culturally linked starting locations turned off so I won't have any idea in advance who my opponents will be. The situation with culturally linked starting locations turned on would be rather different, but that has more to do with the strengths of neighbors' UUs than with weaknesses in Egypt.

I would prefer we start with it on, as you're right, it is the strength of Greece and Carthage's UUs that make the difficulty, not Egypt or Rome's flaws. But I would also like to know how to deal with Greece or Carthage on a huge map.

They'll show up admidst the "Europeans" and "Mid-Easterners" even with cultural linking on, though. And it's good that they should, especially Carthage. I only play huge maps (not that I object to smaller maps, I just like a longer game), and the Carthaginians consistently present a challenge.

quote: With Egypt, my current inclination is that the ideal time for a GA is after a near-beeline to Monarchy (stopping off for Pottery along the way). That gives the advantage of a non-despotic GA with a reasonably large civ, provides a fair-sized force of WCs when the wars start, and still leaves a reasonable amount of time to romp before WCs become obsolete. Not that I've tried that particular path on a huge map yet.

Well, this will give you that shot!

I'd also give to give this approach a try. My inclination would be to believe that it would be difficult to make it work, but I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.

	19-03-2003 01:00									#75
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quote: With Egypt, my current inclination is that the ideal time for a GA is after a near-beeline to Monarchy (stopping off for Pottery along the way). That gives the advantage of a non-despotic GA with a reasonably large civ, provides a fair-sized force of WCs when the wars start, and still leaves a reasonable amount of time to romp before WCs become obsolete.

Yeah, that's basically how I play Egypt.

By the way, enjoy this fellas, but I'm gonna sit it out. Huge maps just aren't for me (or my computer). Plus, I'll be on vacation next week.

Have fun!

-Arrian

	19-03-2003 01:42									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian By the way, enjoy this fellas, but I'm gonna sit it out. Huge maps just aren't for me (or my computer). Plus, I'll be on vacation next week.

Come on, Arrian... this AU course is gonna last longer than a week... we'll be playing another one at the same time... this is just a "background" game...

Right, everyone?

	19-03-2003 02:28									#77
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Ppl need to take vacations off Civ 3 once in a while

	19-03-2003 02:32									#78
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quote: Originally posted by minke19104 Ppl need to take vacations off Civ 3 once in a while

NEVER!!!

	19-03-2003 02:38									#79
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quote: Originally posted by minke19104 Ppl need to take vacations off Civ 3 once in a while

Like maybe when Civ 4 comes out?

	19-03-2003 02:44									#80
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We'll see Yahweh. Maybe I'll try it out. No promises, though.

My vacation is in RL, not a self-imposed vacation from civ (hah, like that would work!). I won't have access to civ in the Caribbean, and if I did, and I played, I should probably be shot.

-Arrian

	19-03-2003 02:47									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian My vacation is in RL, not a self-imposed vacation from civ (hah, like that would work!). I won't have access to civ in the Caribbean, and if I did, and I played, I should

Yes, I think even the biggest civ-freak would have to agree with that analysis.

Still, I'd be very grateful if you'd join in the game, even if you spread your gaming experience over literally months.

I mean, I do think that should be the plan... we all have more pressing civ games to attend to after all... I'm still trying to win as every civ on a huge map, a commitment that I do not take lightly, but should for the sake of my job, my GF, and my health.

I think the huge map AU course is something that we can all look to from time to time... if it's stressing anyone out, it's sort of beyond the point.

Especially if the total war/despotism only/archipelageo/whatever AU course goes up around the same time! I want in on that one, too.

	19-03-2003 02:59									#82
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I've just finished the scenario. All I need now are the updated AU mod files and we should be ready to go.

The following civs are avaible to play in the stock Civ3 version: Egyptians, Russians, French and Aztecs.

For the Play the World version, the above civs are still available, and the Carthaginians and Spanish are added in.

I hope this is satisfactory. Each of these should make for an interesting game, not to worry.

I've attached a screenshot of the start location (which gets better once a bit of the darkness is revealed...).


Dominae

Attachment: au207 start.jpg
This has been downloaded 42 time(s).

	19-03-2003 03:17									#83
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Is that a hint that we move from the starting location at our own risk?

	19-03-2003 03:23									#84
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Edit: Let's leave the spoiler/hints stuff for another thread.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 19-03-2003 at 04:10

	19-03-2003 03:33									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae That's a good question: would you move in this situation, assuming you're not allowed a "peek" with either the Worker or a Scout? Dominae

What, do we not get a worker (and a scout as the Russians) in this mod?

	19-03-2003 03:49									#86
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Also, Dominae, does this mean we should (gulp) download your mod and start playing this AU course?

I've never done this before, so forgive my idiocy. I have a hard time even finding my way to the D/Ls section here at Apolyton...

	19-03-2003 03:56									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae That's a good question: would you move in this situation, assuming you're not allowed a "peek" with either the Worker or a Scout?

EDIT: Catt's thoughts on building in place or moving a tile from the start location edited out - to reappear later in a future spoiler thread

Catt

EDIT: Ditto.

	19-03-2003 04:03									#88
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Double-post.

	19-03-2003 04:03									#89
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Yahweh, any mod rules (if you wish to use them) will be included in the files I upload, so there is no need to download anything extra. You will also be able to play unmodded versions of the scenario, too. The AU mod we're using does not do anything drastic like remove Workers or Scouts, not to worry. I was just asking a hypothetical question.

Catt, I did not think about it in terms of not popping the Hut...good thinking! Maybe this should go in the spoiler/hints thread?


Dominae

	19-03-2003 04:07									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Catt, I did not think about it in terms of CENSORED. Maybe this should go in the spoiler/hints thread?

Good point. I edited mine - perhaps you can do the same for yours?