26-03-2003 01:24									#61
	Put an end to popups!

Zenon,
Already 8th city causes unhappiness under republic - it is an extra unhappiness caused by the size of the SSC. Unfortunately I don't know the exact mechanism of this phenomenon

	26-03-2003 11:17									#62
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I have replayed the start of this game about a dozen times and my admiration for Solo's effort has grown each time. I have not managed to get close to reaching the Republic in 1850 BC. The best I can do is 1650 BC. I calculate I've got to find about 40 additional beakers over the first 42 turns and I've no idea where they are going to come from. I look forward to seeing Solo's launch save .

RJM at Sleepers

	26-03-2003 20:39									#63
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

RJM,

1850 BC was possible for Republic because I made contact with the Spanish while studying Ceremonial Burial. The Spanish had this tech already, and I traded for it, allowing me to transfer shields accumulated towards CB towards the next research choice, Literacy. Without that trade, Republic would have taken longer.

I have finished typing up the log of my game, so will post it now, along with a save made the turn before landing.

Early Landing Comparison Game #2

BC years

3950 Zimbabwe
3800 Ulundi

Zimbabwe was located with access to three specials, and Ulundi turned out to be the SSC site, after my warrior revealed it had 2 silk, a wheat and a whale. Although it did not have any poor terrain, Ulundi needed a lot of lumberjacking to turn its regular forests into trade producing plains. Near the bottom of the map, it is sure to be at a good distance from most trading partners enabling good delivery payoffs. Emphasis will be on working trade tiles such as silk until Republic is discovered.

3150 Alphabet, Zim – warrior

This first warrior was sent exploring continent #1, which is probably a big one with several other AI.

3450 Code of Laws, Zim – warrior
3250 Zim – warrior
3050 Ulu – settlers, Writing
2900 Bapedi

Bapedi was to the west of Ulundi, with the idea that it might become a station city as well as a helper, but due to distance and the 0 meridian, the AI road and rail bonuses did not become available during this game.

2800 Zim – settlers
2650 Bap – warrior
2600 contact Spanish - peace, trade for Ceremonial Burial, they also have Map Making, Bronze Working and Masonry, all good techs I can trade for later.

Since I was researching Ceremonial Burial at this time, this saved a few turns of research allowing Republic a few turns earlier than expected.

2500 Hlobane

I went north until I found a port with a whale for more early trade and shields. Hlobane had 3 other specials, a fish, a silk and a pheasant, a great site.

2450 Literacy
2350 Ulu – temple
2000 Ulu – diplomat
1850 Republic, switch made
1800 Bap – temple, Zim – temple, barb attack, archer bribed for 61 gold, contact Sioux, peace, trade for Bronze Working, give tech, they have Horseback Riding and Pottery

Bribing that barb archer used up most of my emergency bribing fund, but I had to do this in order to keep my capital safe. His partner did not come with a leader, so I was back to almost zero gold. This meant the archer had to be supported to protect Ulundi until more gold was in the till. Later in the game, I was hoping that the barbs might capture Bapedi, so that I could set it up for the AI road and rail trade route bonuses, but the AI are like the cops, never around when you want them.

1750 Hlo – settlers
1600 Mysticism, Isandlhwana, Spanish - trade for Map Making, share maps, (utterly useless) alliance; Sioux – give tech, share maps, they are my key civ

Isandlhwana was just south of Hlobane and shared its pheasant and fish specials.

1500 Ulu – trireme

The dumb mistake, since the exploring warrior had been homed to Ulu, too. I disbanded that warrior, rather than deal with extra unhappiness, since I wanted the trireme assigned to my SSC later on during Democracy. Losing that explorer resulted in a big delay in meeting the Germans and Chinese, but I figured any useful techs they had might be traded to the civs I did know. Had I not met my key civ yet, I would probably have continued by building Marco Polo’s as my first wonder. The diplomat I kept sending west after this kept being expelled when trying to get past the Spanish to reach the Germans and the Chinese. Later on, I noticed how wide continent #1 was and ended up making contact with the Chinese by coming at them from the other direction.

1300 Currency
1200 Hlo – temple, Bap – trireme, contact Carthaginians - peace, give tech, share maps

It did not take long to find my best trading partner of the game, since they were on the part of continent #2 that was closest to me.

1050 Isa – temple, Zim – settlers
1000 Trade
900 Ulu – library, Intombe

Intombe was east of Isandlhwana and had two whales as specials. This game I’m focusing on science first, with a library in the SSC before a marketplace. I plan on earlier science wonders there, too.

850 Celts contact me – trade for Masonry, give tech, share maps; Hlo – beads, Bap – settlers

825 Banking
750 Zim – dye, Isa – hides
700 Ulu – silk
675 Mathematics, beads(d) Cardiff, 176g
650 Int – temple
625 Isa – settlers, Hlo – silver, Astronomy, dye(d) to Utica, 128g

These early payoffs are boosting research while providing gold to speed up builds of more commodity caravans.

525 Philosophy, University, hides to Utica, 104g
500 Hlo – settlers, Ulu – copper, Zim – copper, Celts announce they have Construction
475 Bap –dye
450 Ulu – marketplace, we love begins in Ulundi, silver(d) to Utica, 150g; Spanish – trade for Pottery, spurned for sniveling, alliance dissolved

I hated to have to make this trade for Pottery, since I can usually count on one of the AI for Seafaring, which I needed for Ulundi’s harbor. Later in the game, my SSC and other cities were supplying salt because I had Pottery.

425 Medicine
400 Int – beads, Ulu – hides, silk(d) to Carthage, 373g
375 Isa – dye, Ulu – salt, we love stops at size 7
350 Hlo – dye, Bap – wool, Ulu – hides, Zim – gems, Celts – trade for Construction; Sioux, give tech, share maps

325 Seafaring, Ulu – Shakespeare’s Theater
300 Ulu – we love resumes, copper(d) to Utica, 280g
275 Ulu – aqueduct
250 Mpondo, Ulu – size 8

Mpondo was the first colony and was located a bit northwest of the Celtic cities, and it had a fish, a silk, and a pheasant as specials. I planned the other colonies to be next to it, and finding the best place for colonies in this game was not very obvious, since the Celts and Carthaginians cities were not going to continue as great trading partners in the second half of the game when commodities changed. Since the SSC would also lack 3 roaded and railed routes to an AI city, I decided to place colonies at the end of the map for bigger payoffs to help make up for the lack of matching demands I was expecting later. The only good thing about having Pottery was that I was able to delay starting colonies a bit longer than usual, since granaries could be built to speed their growth to size 3.

225 Int – hides, Isa – dye, Carthaginians – give tech, share maps
175 Hlo – hides, Theory of Gravity, Zim – beads, copper(d) to Carmarthen, 384g
150 Bap – wool, Ulu – hides, size 12, Sioux – give tech, share maps
125 Ulu – Copernicus’s Observatory, Economics, dye(d) to Carthage, 256g

Usually I precede Copernicus with the Colossus, but I wanted to speed up my research earlier in this game. Now I felt I had to research Warrior Code and I count this event as the low point in my early landing career, since it was the first game I can remember when I was not able to get Iron Working by trade from one of the AI, which normally allows the postponement of Warrior Code.

75 Ulu – university

The rushed university kept the priority on science although this used up all the available gold. Finances were tight for the next few turns.

50 Warrior Code, Celts announce they have Engineering, trade for Engineering, share maps

AD years

20 Int – beads, Hlo – dye, Ulu – hides
40 Spanish – give tech, share maps, Iron Working, salt(d) to Carthage, 486g
60 Mpo – settlers, Isa – dye, Ulu – gold, Zim – gems
80 Bap – gems, Ulu – we love begins, Sanitation
100 Ulu- sewer system
140 hides(d) to Utica, 84g, Ngome

Ngome was the second colony founded a bit north of the first.

160 Int – hides, Hlo – salt, Bap – salt, Ulu – food, Zim – cloth
180 Ulu – Isaac Newton’s College, Bridge Building, Carthaginians – give tech, share maps, hides(d) to Utica, 502g

200 Ngo – temple, Mpo – diplomat, Isa – beads, Hlo – dye, Ulu – copper, Chemistry
220 Sioux – give tech, share maps, Ulu – gems, contact Germans – give tech, peace, share maps

240 Germans expel my diplomat, dye(d) to Caralis, 128g
260 Celts announce they have Polytheism, Ngo – settlers, Invention, Ulu – size 21, we love ends

280 Mpo – temple, Int – beads, Ulu – Colossus

All SSC wonders are now in place, and all it needs are a bank and stock exchange. By swapping SSC priorities to science before economics, I gained a lead of about 7 techs when comparing this game to the last one, but was hurting more for gold. Even though most SSC improvements have been built, work on its terrain is a bit behind schedule, so it is a race to Explosives instead of the usual choice of Democracy as the next research priority.

300 Gunpowder
320 Hlo – salt, dye(d) to Utica, 96g
340 Ulu – courthouse, Explosives, Zim – cloth, copper(d) to Malaca, 400g
360 Mpo – harbor, Int – Engineers, Isa – wool, Hlo – engineers, Bap – gems, Democracy, Swazi, gems(d) to Malaca, 600g, Carthaginians – give tech, share maps

The switch to Democracy had to wait for the second trireme to be rehomed to Ulundi, the SSC. This was not a problem, since city science was about 200 beakers short of 1 turn advances, anyways. This was mostly due to the lack of an AI road bonus for the SSC trade routes. Swazi was the third and final colony, built to provide easy access to the two largest Celt cities neighboring my first two colonies.

380 Ngo – granary, Ulu – engineers, Navigation, Zim – engineers, gold(d) to Malaca, 600g

This game required more engineers than usual due to the huge amount of work needed in the SSC. All forests had to be converted to plains, and then roaded and irrigated. The two silk were converted to wheat and irrigated to increase the maximum SSC size from 22 up to 27. Originally, I had planned to add farmland, too, but there was not enough time to accomplish this, too.

400 Swa – temple, Ulu – bank, Metallurgy, Celts & Sioux – give tech, share maps
420 Zim – harbor
440 Swa – granary, Ulu – wine, Physics, revolution
460 Isa – beads, Ulu – spice, government to Democracy
500 Isa – silver, Ulu – gems, Steam Engine
520 wool(d) to Mpondo, 60g
540 Bap – wool, Ulu – food, Railroad, Zim – silver
560 Int – harbor, Ulu – Darwin’s Voyage, Industrialization, Magnetism, Sioux – give tech, share maps

Now freights would become available on the next turn. Unfortunately, it was difficult getting many matches for supplies and demands during the second half of the game. Cities that were demanding goods produced were usually well inland and not worth the delay it would take to deliver to them. The demand for the commodities being produced by the SSC was very low, too, and a lot of the time it was making salt and beads. This lack of demand and of quality commodities slowed things down, since less income than usual delayed the rush buying of superhighways and scientific improvements in the helpers and colonies. This limited the number of chances for earning two techs per turn. The best was made of this situation by locating colonies far from home and by trading more with them than with the AI.

580 The Corporation
600 Swa – harbor, Ngo – harbor, Mpo – silk, Ulu – gold, wine(d) to Utica, 367g
620 Electricity, Ulu – stock exchange, we love begins for all cities
640 Refining, silver(d) to Carmarthen, 154g, gems(d) to Carmarthen, 708g, Sioux – give tech, share maps

660 Int – colosseum, Isa – harbor, Hlo – colosseum, Bap – harbor, Ulu – cloth, Steel, Zim – colosseum, spice(d) to Swazi, 340g

680 Ngo – coloseeum, Ulu – wine, Carthaginians – give tech, share maps, gold(d) to Malaca, 666g

700 Combustion, Mpo – colosseum, Ulu – temple, Zim – engineers, Hlo – transport, Isa – transport

720 Ulu – gold, silk(d) to Ulu, 554g
740 Swa – colosseum, Automobile, Mpo – transport, Int – transport, gold(d) to Malaca, 666g, we love ends for helpers and colonies

760 Isa – colosseum, Bap – colosseum, Ulu – superhighways, Electronics, wine(d) to Ngome, 832g

780 Swa – wine, Ngo – silk, Mpo – superhighways, Hlo – silver, Ulu – beads, Atomic Theory

800 Carthaginians announce they have Conscription, Bap – superhighways, Ulu – wine, size 27, we love ends, Mass Production, Zim – cloth, beads(d) to Leptis Parva, 708g

820 Int – oil, Isa – superhighways, Hlo – courthouse, Ulu – mass transit, Nuclear Fission, wine(d) to Bapedi, 397g, Sioux, give tech, share maps; contact Chinese – they demand gold, war

By this time the SSC was at full size and engineers had just completed converting all of its wheat into silk for maximum trade. The Chinese were finally contacted after several aborted attempts to get beyond other civs with my diplomat. This lack of contact had probably cost me time researching some techs earlier in the game. Without the knowledge of Chinese cities it was more difficult keeping track of city cycle turns, also. In a few instances, this lack of information kept me from delivering some cargos in time for the demand bonuses, since some city cycle turns were only my best estimates.

840 Ngo – superhighways, Ulu – cloth, Nuclear Power, Spanish & Germans – give tech, share maps, cloth(d) to Mpondo, 901g, wine to Carmarthen, 722g

860 Swa – superhighways, Mpo – dye, Int – hides, Isa – dye, Hlo – library, Bap – gold, Ulu – food, Laser, Zim – superhighways, Chinese – give tech, peace, trade for Feudalism, share maps; Celts – trade for Horseback Riding, share maps; Sioux – give tech, share maps; cloth(d) Mpondo, 544g, hides to Ulundi, 88g, dye(d) to Cardiff, 330g, silk(d) to Zimbabwe, 712g, Tugela

This was a busy turn, and the fact that the Chinese had Feudalism just confirmed to me that if I had made contact earlier in the game, I probably would have been able to acquire Iron Working and Bridge Building from them through trades, too. The trade for Horseback Riding was carefully timed to enable the selection of Chivalry followed by Leadership on the next turn, the first turn of only two in the game that I managed to earn two techs. Tugela was founded and used to trigger the first tech.

880 Tug – gems, Chivalry, Swa – library, Ngo – dye, Mpo – library, Int – dye, Isa – library, Hlo – university, Bap – lib, Ulu – dye, Zim – gems, Leadership, Carthaginians – trade for Conscription, oil(d) to Ngome, 444g, dye(d) to Armagh, 1026g, dye(d) to Utica, 124g

900 Tactics, Ngo – library, Mpo – university, Isa – university, Ulu – beads, Flight, Chinese – give tech share maps, gems(d) to Armagh, 348g, dye to Ulu, 275g, silver(d) to Cardiff, 195g

I chose Flight because my city science could no longer keep up with mounting tech costs. For the rest of the game, I would use freights to supplement city science each turn to guarantee an advance per turn. Since most of the remaining trade was to be between the colonies and home cities, I wanted to build some airports to boost payments and for making the last few shipments while transports headed to ports to be disbanded for space ship parts. Another reason for choosing Flight now was that fewer tech trades would have to be made to get research lists with techs along the path to Space Flight. No off path techs had to be learned for the rest of the game by doing it this way. This saved a few turns of research.

920 Tug – dye, Swa – dye, Int – salt, Hlo – salt, Bap - food, Ulu – salt, Zim – silver, Machine Tools, gold(d) to Malaca, 294g, salt to Swazi, 280g, dye to Ulu, 300g

940 Ngo – silk, Mpo – hides, Isa – beads, Ulu – salt, Radio, salt to Ngome, 85g, silk(d) to Zimbabwe, 475g, dye to Ulu, 280g

960 Tug – salt, Swa – food, Mpo – airport, Int – oil, Hlo – food, Bap – spice, Ulu – airport, Zim – gems, Miniaturization, salt to Mpondo, 412g, hides to Ulundi, 412g

980 Ngo – hides, Int – airport, Isa – food, Ulu – wine, Computers, silver(d) to Panoramus, 345g, beads to Cartenna, 262g, oil(d) to Mpondo, 459g, wine(d) to Int, 160g

1000 Tug – food, Swa – food, Mpo – dye, Int – superhighways, Hlo – food, Bap – food, Ulu – salt, Advanced Flight, Zim – food, salt to Mpondo, 374g, hides to Ulundi, 300g

1020 Ngo – airport, Int – oil, Isa – food, Ulu – salt, Rocketry, oil(d) to Mpondo, 560g, salt to Mpondo, 412g, gems to Ulundi, 70g, All AI – give tech, share maps

1040 Tug – beads, Swa – food, Ngo – silk, Mpo – hides, Hlo – food, Ulu – wine, Zim – food, Space Flight, share maps, gems(d) to Armagh, 348g, hides to Intombe, 70g, hides to Ulundi, 412g

1060 Tug – Apollo Program, Ngo – silk, Int – oil, Isa – salt, Bap – food, Zim – silver, Plastics, silver(d) to Armagh, 290g, wine(d) to Ngome, 450g, Sioux – trade for The Wheel, give tech, share maps

1080 Tug – SS structural, Swa – food, Mpo – hides, Ngo – SS component, Int – SS structural, Isa - SS structural, Hlo – food, Ulu – food, Zim – SS structural, Superconductor, oil(d) to Mpondo, 560g, silk(d) to Zimbabwe, 475g, dye to Ulundi, 412g

1100 Tug – SS module, Swa – SS component, Mpo- SS structural, Hlo – SS structural, Bap – spice, Zim – SS structural, salt to Ngome, 436g, beads to Ulundi, 275g, Umtata

Umtata was added as a space ship contractor to finish an extra component for next turn’s launch.

1120 Umtata – SS component, Tug – SS module, Swa - SS structural, Fusion Power, Ngo – SS structural, Mpo – SS structural, Int – SS structural, Isa – SS structural, Hlo – SS structural, Bap – SS structural, Ulu – SS structural, pollution due to selling mass transit, Zim – SS component, a little over 100g left, 15-2-2-1-1-1 launch

1141 Arrival Alpha Centauri after 21 turns of boredom.

Attachment: sh_a1140.sav
This has been downloaded 12 time(s).

Last edited by solo on 26-03-2003 at 20:59

	26-03-2003 21:20									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

1120 Umtata – SS component, Tug – SS module, Swa - SS structural, Fusion Power, Ngo – SS structural, Mpo – SS structural, Int – SS structural, Isa – SS structural, Hlo – SS structural, Bap – SS structural, Ulu – SS structural, pollution due to selling mass transit, Zim – SS component, a little over 100g left, 15-2-2-1-1-1 launch

1141 Arrival Alpha Centauri after 21 turns of boredom.

help!
wich level?

	26-03-2003 22:25									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

ottok,

deity level, but keep this just between you and me.

	26-03-2003 22:47									#66
	Support Apolyton

I thought we all play Deity+5 ??

	27-03-2003 12:21									#67
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Solo - that is a lean empire. Nothing irrigated except in your SSC. I don't remember you mentioning this before. Is it a standard strategy that I have missed or did you come up with it for this game?

RJM at Sleepers

	27-03-2003 15:48									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

in one of his early EL games, he mentioned that he favored sites with specials, forest, and ability to use harbors in lieu of terrain development for his helper cities and looks for those when he founds his helper cities

	27-03-2003 20:22									#69
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Right SCG, I look for helper and colony sites that will support a settler under Republic without having to irrigate. Any time that precious time can be saved by doing things like this helps shorten a game. If fewer settlers and engineers are needed, more caravans and freights can be built sooner. About all I do to improve helpers is connect them with roads, but even this may happen only after priorities in the SSC are taken care of.

I have received a request to play one of our future games on a large map, so would like to poll active players in an informal way, to see if the majority are agreeable to this. So I'd appreciate it if active players would let me know of your opinions about using a large map in your next posts.

Last edited by solo on 27-03-2003 at 20:27

	27-03-2003 22:35									#70
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Progress report from the Lumbering (in more ways than one) Elephant:

Nearing 1AD now...

Monarchy: 1900BC (discover on OEDO turn)
Republic: discovered 775BC, installed 325BC (delayed to keep smaller cities building caravans under Monarchy, and the tribute option)

Marco Polo: 900BC
Shakespeare: 300BC

Playing lean & nice (as opposed to "mean"). I have 7 cities, 21 techs, with 5 more available but trying to skip. I got Construction, Wheel and Math from trades without having to do Masonry and Horse; unfortunately I had to take Pottery to work on Seafaring as my AI "tech slave" is taking too long. I am WLTCDing the SSC now, trying to make caravans in shield-starved Republic. I have full maps & intel of every other civ; they are all Enthusiastic, occasionally Worshipful (trying not to let this go to my head), but only one is Allied. Cannot push the alliance, though, cause I am more likely to get unwanted techs than gold. Looking for a good site for an offshore colony right now for my 8th city, but still have a fair amount of lumber to cut ASAP. Also trying to put a road in to the Spanish to see if I can get the trade route bonus. Major Barb attacks 2850BC, 1600BC,925BC, and 500BC. The Celts got Medicine from a hut just as I was about to finish the research; could have saved a whole research round if it had been one turn earlier. Sigh...

Tech slaving works somewhat, particularly if you get the MPE early enough and have decent civilized civs like the Germans and Chinese. Once you get above about 15 techs their research slows down so much you might as well do it yourself. I have gotten 9 of my 21 techs by trade, including key ones like Construction, Wheel and Math that allow me to punt their prerequisites. I tried tech-bombing one civ so that another would finish faster (dumped on the Sioux to help the Celts get Construction); I think it helped a bit but not sure.

Now to read up on how to plant a city that makes lots of Silk...

	27-03-2003 23:55									#71
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by solo I have received a request to play one of our future games on a large map, so would like to poll active players in an informal way, to see if the majority are agreeable to this. So I'd appreciate it if active players would let me know of your opinions about using a large map in your next posts.

T'was I that made the suggestion.

I want to compare different strategies. Some of the players here have been experimenting with MPE which is an interesting tactic ... though one which I don't use on a Medium World. On a large map, especially if the purple civ was not in easy exploring range, the wonder could be essential to keep the science rate from being penalised.

So I vote we try one game on a Large World.

-------------

SG(2)

	28-03-2003 00:14									#72
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Although I am fond of Marco Polo, I feel that our "comparison" wont be the same when the map size is enlarged. SG is right that other strategies will emerge, diluting the Early Landing focus.

In hindsight, I would say that simply terrain made a significant difference between ELCG 1 and 2. In #1 hills were more dominant, and only one other civ was on our continent. In #2 forests are the rule, the continent is much bigger and includes 5 civs. Rivers helped in #1; they are nowhere nearby in #2.

I move we stay with Normal for the next one or two, then consider a Large. I'm still experimenting with EL strategies.

	28-03-2003 12:05									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by solo I have received a request to play one of our future games on a large map, so would like to poll active players in an informal way, to see if the majority are agreeable to this. So I'd appreciate it if active players would let me know of your opinions about using a large map in your next posts.

If we are talking about the 75 x 120 option, I'm happy to go along with that. If we are talking about some sort of giga map, do they work OK with 2.42?

RJM at Sleepers

	28-03-2003 14:22									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Elephant,
About MPE... How much did you get from tributes? I got 550g up to 800BC (from every civ on continent #1). I built a city on continent #2 but neither Celts nor Carthaginians want to pay... (Although I have a Warrior on that continent) I don't understand what is the difference... Maybe the presence of capital?

Edit: I forgot to say I play also a monarchy start followed by Trade and MPE .

About a large map: I will finish this game later than other players the next one, so the question don't concern my person...

A note:
Solo, I think you should repeat the rules in the beginning of every game, or to add a link to the game #1...

Last edited by SlowThinker on 28-03-2003 at 22:19

	28-03-2003 19:15									#75
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

RJM,

Yes, we are talking about the large maps generated by the game, not giga maps. I have played 2.42 games using giga maps, so know they work.

ST,

That's a good point, and I will repeat the rules at the beginning of each game from now on, since newcomers may not be aware of the prohibition against tipping huts.

Elephant,

You are doing very well so far in your game and have proven how helpful MPE can be in the early going. Perhaps it has given you enough of a boost to land the earliest in this game.

Last edited by solo on 28-03-2003 at 19:20

	29-03-2003 00:02									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I doubt I will come close to your landing dates in this or any EL game; getting below 1500 is my current personal goal, and this comparison series has been very helpful. Thanks for moderating and commenting extensively on our different play styles. I hope to post my To-1AD log next week; I want to switch back to the CFC GOTM before that deadline just to apply some of this stuff. I am weak on building caravans in Republic, on planting cities deliberately to supply high-demand commodities, and on streamlining the tech plan. I probably use Monarchy and Marco Polo as a crutch too much, but it did come in helpful in this game as there were less shields from forests than there were from mined hills in the previous. I also take 5-10 minutes to think out, execute, and log a turn, and am mostly playing late nights (10pm-1am). Looking forward to reading your EL Guide.

	31-03-2003 12:27									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I've just read Solo's "Early Landing Gude". It is brilliant

I can't imaging there is much to add to it, but I suspect that some of our clever players will find some new twists.

Well done Solo!

RJM at Sleepers

	02-04-2003 01:44									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I finished my log now. I had to reconstruct some early parts, but all major events should be accurate:

BC
3950 Zimbabwe founded Southwest of starting position (3 specials, 2 shared with future SSC)
3800 Ulundi (SSC) founded
Alphabet
Code of Laws
3050 Writing
2500 Ceremonial burial
2150 fourth city at 4 specials site
2050 Monarchy
1650 Map Making
1600 first contact: Spanish, peace, exchange techs: Bronce Working, The Wheel, 5th city founded
1250 Mysticism
1200 First trireme
1150 continent 2 discovered
1000 Carthaginiens, peace, give techs, share maps, no tribute; Spain: give techs, Alliance, share maps, gift 150g (the first and last time), they are not my key civ, Germans are Northwest of Spanish
950 Currency
850 Barbarian Cardiff discovered
725 Trade
525 first barbarian attack
500 spanish warrior tips hut, 4 barbarian horses are loose, close to the first barbarian uprising, contact the Germans, peace, tribute 150g (2 times 25 g later on)
450 Philosophy; Medicine; decide to build Colossus first, Chinese are allready building it for a while; first delivery: copper to Seville 84g
425 barb horse bribed, barbarian leader 150g,
400 Finally the Sioux, peace, give techs 150g tribute, abandon plans fόr MPE,
300 Republic discovered, exchange Masonry
280 Russians discovered, peace, exchange Seafaring
225 Republic, Shakes
exchange Horse Riding
150 Banking, Barb leader 150g
125 Ulundi size 8
100 gold to Utica 216 g,
75 Building
AD
20 Ulundi Size 12
40 Mathematics
100 Astronomy
140 Copernicus; discover University;
180 Theory of Gravity; Carthaginiens announce engineering
220 Chemistry; exchange Engineering
260 Sanitation
320 Iron Working, Newtons College, SSC does not go beyond size 15, should have build a courthouse, I wait for democracy,
380 Democracy discovered, Democracy
420 Bridge Building
440 Gunpowder
480 Navigation
500 Explosives
520 Ulundi Size 21, again no further celebration, Physics
560 Barbarian Cardiff bribed, 364 g
580 Steam Engine
600 Railroad
620 Industrialisation
640 Magnetism
680 Economics
700 The Corporation
740 Refining
760 Metallurgy, with the railroad to my Eastern harbour finished one turn deliveries are now possible from the SSC to Utica
780 Electricity
800 Engine
820 Steel
840 Automobile, Ulundi superhighways; Tugela destroyed by barbarian attack
860 Feudalism, no exchanges possible on this tech path
880 Electronics;
900 Conscription; barb fregate threatens Ulundi, all landing fields blocked with trucks and dips
920 Chivalry, barb fregate sits and waits
940 Leadership, carthaginien explorer tips hut near umfolozi nova, 4 knights are loose
960 Nuclear Theory
980 Tactics
1000 Mass Production, barb attack
1020 Machine Tools
1040 Flight; barb leader 150 g
1060 Radio
1080 Miniaturization; first airfreight delivery copper from cardiff 587 g
1100 Advanced Flight; oil airfrght 711g
1120 Computer; Ulundi laboratory
1140 Rocketry, exchange ceramics with sioux
1160 Spaceflight, barb fregate outside Ulundi destroyed
1180 Nuclear Fission, the barb revenge comes the next turn, Swazi, one of my airfreight colonies completely destroyed by barb surprise attack, three dragoons came out of nowhere and attacked the same round, a musceteer, a dip, an engineer, the airport and 2 freights lost, a supported transporter loaded with 3 freights from other colonies due to delivery next turn was also lost, instead of accumulating shields and gold for the launch I have to fight to keep my tech pace 
1200 Nuclear Power
1220 exchange Communism with Sioux, Plastics
1260 Laser, Apollo, exchange Polytheism with Carthaginiens
1280 Superconductor
1320 Fusion Power
1380 Spaceship (15-3-3-1-1-1)launched, 215g left, surprise attack by Carthaginien Bombers
1382 Espionage
1386 Mobile Warfare
1389 Caralis captured, the Spanish are quiet now
1395 AC landing


I did some analysis on my game. Major mistakes: no optimal tech path after Monarchy and badly timed tech exchanges, no courthouse in SSC. The first 2 deliveries to the Spanish should have been sent to the Carthaginiens, too. I replayed the part from 1700 BC until reaching democracy just improving these 3 points and saved 7 rounds compared to my game (Democracy in 220 and SSC 6 rounds ahead in size). The tech wonders were only slightly delayed due to more spending on the SSC. After democracy in my game there were alltogether 5 turns without a tech advance, 2 techs a turn were never possible. After automobile the 1 tech a turn pace did work (only one break because of the barb attack). A bigger SSC would have saved some time I suppose. Loosing 2 cities to the barbs did cost one turn in techs and more ressources would have helped building the spaceship a little earlier. But I don΄t see what I could have done about this.
After my first try on monarchy in an ELG I am not sure if early monarchy on a medium map is a delay to early republic or not. On a big map I would certainly go for it again. Looking at Scouse Gits log i΄d say there are still ressources. I hope he will post his complete log.
Thank you, Solo, for setting up this comparison game. It΄s fun. I am looking forward to the next one. Your ELG guide is great. Congratulations on this fine piece of work.

Zenon

Attachment: sh_a1394.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	03-04-2003 11:57									#79
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by solo All, For this game, I'll be setting a deadline of Sunday, April 6, which is 3 weeks from today.

And will #3 start on the the same day?

RJM at Sleepers

(Who has been getting in lots of practice and confidently expects to land before 1899 this time.)

	03-04-2003 20:38									#80
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

RJM,

I think I'll post the starts for #3 on friday, to give those who are waiting something to do over the weekend. I've decided to post two starts, one using a medium map and another using a large map. Players can pick the one they prefer, or play them both, as I plan to do. Doing this will give those who finish quickly another game to work on while waiting.

Zenon,

Thanks for posting your log. They are difficult to reconstruct if you don't keep one while playing the game. Your analysis is right on. The Swazi debacle knocked a lot of time off what you should have been able to do, too. Perhaps the barbs will give you more of a break in the next game.

	04-04-2003 02:40									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I was frustrated by Barbs as well. Could we consider playing Barbs at Normal level rather than Raging? Less "random" impact, but still present for those who love to kill something; no VP bonus, but we're not playing for VP anyway...
Changing Barb levels might make early Horse tech less desirable...

	04-04-2003 19:23									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Elephant,

I was also a bit frustrated a few months ago in one very promising game, when barbs swooped into my SSC overwhelming my diplomat before he could react!

A lower barb setting was one of my original proposals, and the reason was to eliminate flukey events like this, but the majority then wanted raging hordes.

Maybe we can re-evaluate this and try a lower setting in game #4. As for game #3, I've already got the starts ready, and promised them today. It takes time to play enough starts until one with a suitable SSC site is found, so it would be too late to try a lower barb setting for this game.

Still trying to prove that you can please all of the players all of the time!!!

solo

	04-04-2003 20:51									#83
	Support Apolyton

No problem; I understand. Thanks for all the work you do on this. I'm starting to get it through my thick skull; I'm actually going to try to do without Monarchy next time...

	05-04-2003 05:49									#84
	AC Landing 1276 Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

After a long delay, I have been able to complete this one, finally. Here is the Summary...

Summary for Early Landing Game #2

Landing in 1276 after 1240 launch

Governments

Monarchy...................2050b
Republic.......................125b
Democracy...................380a
Fundamentalism..........1253

Wonders

MPE..........................625b
HG............................450b
Colossus..................300b
ST...............................50b
Copernicus..................60
Isaac's.......................320
Leo's............................na
Michaelangelo's..........360
Darwin's.....................760
SETI.............................na
Apollo.......................1160

Post Launch WOWs (9)

Pyramids, Lighhouse, Oracle,
Sun Tzu, King Rich, Magellan,
Tower, Sufferage, UN

SSC stats

size 8.................................1a
size 12...............................80
size 20, 21, 23...................320, 420, 460
max. size, 24.....................620

Techs

Trade.............................1100b
Invention.........................260a
Railroad............................660
Industrialization...............680
Automobile.......................860
Nuclear Power.................1040
Computers......................1000
Flight...............................1060
Space Flight....................1140
Fusion.............................1220
Launch............................1240

Key civ contact 600b

AC arrival 1276

here is the launch save

Monk

Attachment: sh_a1240.sav
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Last edited by Bloody Monk on 05-04-2003 at 05:59

	05-04-2003 06:07									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Early Landing Game #2

AC in 1276

This was an interesting and somewhat different game from previous early landing attempts. The huge and all encompassing sprawl of the home land mass with the date line dividing our position from the rest caused some peculiar effects, ie, mooting a possible road/rail connection to an AI. Fortuitously, two AI were on a close at hand, different land mass making for good trade
prospects. Finding colony sites that could trade with the AI, as well as the SSC, was not easy.

I made many early mistakes in sequencing the building of cities, build orders and tech choices. On top of that I delayed for too long establishing colonies and beginning overseas trade. Then I forgot to revolt to Republic until 125b, falling way behind in WLove growth and science. It does no good to have a written plan if you forget to look at it!! This failure to change to the more favorable gov't blunted the positive effects of Hanging Gardens, one of which is to ease the need for temples at a time when cash is so dear. Based on these mistakes, I knew before the calander change to ad years that I would not be a threat to finish first this time.

Based on the discussion after the last game, I built Marco Polo's Embassy as a first WOW. I was very pleased with the benifits that flowed from this choice. The first and possibly non-obvious benifit
came from shaking the tribute tree, which then allowed the rushing of the next two wonders, HG and COL, which were being built by the AI. I was never able to achieve an alliance so the 300-400g in
tribute, especially early on, was very helpful. Knowing the AI reseach all along was also very useful, and many early swaps were made, ~16. Significantly, several techs were swapped for, bypassing their prerequisites until much later, thereby keeping carrying costs down. For example, Monotheism was had without Horse or Poly, and Construction w/o Mason.

One thing that is not often mentioned is AI attitude massaging through regular (every 2-3 turns) contact and map exchanging along with tech gifting when they drop to cordial. These guys were
enthusiastic or worshipful until Launch, for the most part. Of course, immediate key-civ tech gifting was practised to keep a bonus going. Often the multiple was 24 rather than 26 due to
purple having more techs.

Thirty-six turns with "sneaky" AI, after the Launch, is a very long time. For this reason I stayed in Democracy to get Robotics and then Stealth to deal with their antics. Then the gov't was switched to Fundy and their transgressions were dealt with to their extinction, eliminating all but two. Special attention went to purple who were the only possibility to build a rival ship.

With all these advantages, I could have done much better. Blame goes to the driver, not the car.

Here is the pre landing save

Monk

edited for spelling, always spelling!!

Attachment: sh_a1275.sav
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Last edited by Bloody Monk on 05-04-2003 at 19:38

	05-04-2003 19:18									#86
	Remove this text

Monk,

A great start, but you are right about being too late with SSC growth. Still, a fine result. Dare I say good enough to be in first place in the last game?

You, Elephant, SG(2), and others continue to impress me with what you are accomplishing in the early game, and I am going to make some big changes in my early game when playing #3. I've always been a big fan of having embassies, and looking at how well you and some others have been doing with MPE convinces me to give it a try now. The situation in #3, where we are starting on a small continent, should lend itself even more to an early strategy using MPE.

	05-04-2003 19:46									#87
	Inflate your Upload Space

Thanks, Solo!!

Trying to catch you, we scramble and flail about trying to tweak our game. You look at our failures and say, "Um, I can use that." We will never catch you.

BTW, I think your EL guide should become known as the Solo Codex. It is the "bible" of Early Landing Stategy.

Monk

	06-04-2003 04:53									#88
	1176 Increase the size of your Attachments

Next game I must build a faster ship! 36 years after launching does get a little tedious, though towards the end there was a threat of Nuclear War.

I will pen my thoughts shortly but wanted to post the save file before the deadline

----------------------------------

SG(2)

Attachment: sh_a1175.sav
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	06-04-2003 15:27									#89
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Overview of Game #2

In contrast to the first game with its winding rivers, varied terrain and lucrative AI road/rail connections; this one was about fertile grassland, productive forests and deceptive geography - which fooled me completely. I had messed up in Game#1 by not choosing colony sites properly so in the second adventure I was determined to correct this aspect. I didn't! An ancient trireme captain spotted the three-whale location at (24,64), salivated and plonked down a city. Some time later when the first caravan arrived at the SSC the bonus seemed incredibly weak. Only then did this miscreant mariner check his charts properly! Mpondo was indeed on the same continent - oops. By this time founding a sister city in the same region had compounded the error. The game progressed without any colonies, but the situation was retrieved by aggressive trading with the Carthaginians who were on a different continent. Only when Apollo rolled back the unknown were several respectable colony sites revealed near the Celtic lands. With a game strategy dedicated to early ships and four legged explorers this must go down as ironic failure.

It's been interesting to read recent posts about alternative approaches to early landings that I tried as Zulu leader. My cunning plan in this game was to build up a substantial partner city to the SSC. Co-ordinates 11,51 offered a four special city where Isandhlwana was founded. The rationale for this was to unblock commodities locked by trade to AI cities. Whilst it is possible to minimise arrows in home cities to manipulate supply side trade - this is impossible where foreign routes are involved. The idea was to have a powerful second city which would replace AI trade routes. Supply items in Ulundi often presented themselves after its current freight had been delivered overseas. In part this must have been due to the power of the routes to Isandhlwana but it did take time and resources to make the place dominate over foreign trading. An additional sizeable city was useful…but the jury is still out as to whether it's game busting play. Another topic that has been raised is that of the sleaze. My early development reflected an ICS style but stopped short of multi-city madness. Throughout this game I operated with more cities than in the Roman campaign. I felt happier with this situation even though there is an implied commitment to build Mike's if science is ever to run at 100%.

In Game#1 luck seemed to be against me. In this one I received plenty of jam; a quick alliance with the Spanish, a timely Barb King and an AI that coughed up cash like a fruit machine on heat. Such were the mechanics providing the empire with a racing start. One aspect I did enjoy was the concept of Barb Kings by proxy. The lands around the Spanish, Sioux and Germans were awash with red shields during the BC years. As each leader was ransomed by these nations it was time for the Zulus to bang on their doors demanding tribute or begging for gifts. Good reasons for early alliances and late Monarchy.

Game#3 is upon us. Like the rest of us I will inspect my cunning plan store to see what's there. Meantime solo looks down from AC and smiles.

(Full log to follow)


---------------------

SG(2)

	06-04-2003 21:52									#90
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

SG(2),

It's even more impressive that you achieved this result without proper colonies. Solo had better beware!!

Very well written commentary; I can almost see and feel the texture of your game.

Good luck in EL3.

Monk