14-03-2003 18:55									#1
	Early Landing Comparison Game #2 Get a bigger avatar today!

Okay, here is the start for the second game, to give those anxious to play a head start. I'll post the deadline for this game on Sunday, when I get a better idea of how much time all players need to complete their games.

I was thinking over the requirement for having a detailed log, and can not think of a good reason for enforcing this requirement, so have decided that as a minimum, each player should complete a summary of their game, which will include game dates for the following events:

Governments
Monarchy
Republic
Democracy
Communism/Fundamentalism

Wonders
HG
MPE
ST
Colossus
Copernicus
Isaac's
Leo's
Michaelangelo's
Darwin's
SETI
Apollo

SSC stats
size 8
size 12
size 21
max. size

Techs
Trade
Invention
Railroad
Automobile
Nuclear Power
Computers
Flight
Space Flight

AC arrival

The table following each game will contain these stats. Of course, you may not build all wonders listed, or use all governments, so just keep track of dates relevant to your own game. More detailed logs and/or written accounts of games will be at the players' discretion. Add as little or as much as you want to the required summary.

In this game you will be playing as the Zulus. The same options and rules will be in effect as in the last game. You will find a suitable SSC site a bit to the west of the starting position.

Best of luck to all players and enjoy your games!

	14-03-2003 18:56									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ooops! I guess you'd all like the start, too!

Attachment: sh_b4000.sav
This has been downloaded 31 time(s).

	14-03-2003 22:39									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

solo - Thanks for setting up another game.

------------------------

SG(2)

	15-03-2003 01:33									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Thanks, Solo.

Here we go again

Monk

	15-03-2003 11:54									#5
	Put an end to popups!

I haven't downloaded it yet (bit of a problem with RL), but include me in!

RJM at Sleepers

	16-03-2003 09:04									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

well, i was hoping to get something done on this game today, instead i spent the day playing with what seems to have become the SCG switch (looks like a Corollary to the copper/dye bug), and finding that even with reinstalls, my commodities are different depending on the version i am using and possibly the OS as well. I deleted my entire Civ2 directory (copying the saves that i wanted first) and then reinstalled Civ2 2.42 on 2 different computers. they produce different commodity lists with the same save file in the case of the tested cities.

Anyway. moving ahead with the (i think) clean install of version 2.42 and throwing my hat in the ring on an ME machine. Hopefully I'll shave several hundred years off of last game's landing

	17-03-2003 05:50									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

solo, Thanks for the second game. Unfortunately, I get the "file not a saved game" dialog box - is this in 2.42?

	17-03-2003 08:08									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Grigor,

Yes, it was saved using 2.42. What version of civ II are you using?

All,

For this game, I'll be setting a deadline of Sunday, April 6, which is 3 weeks from today.

	17-03-2003 22:16									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It's fine now. I must have done something stupid.

	19-03-2003 22:02									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

solo ... why did you include Nuclear Power in the list of significant techs? Just wondering!

------------------------

SG(2)

	19-03-2003 23:34									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I notice the continent is #1 again; are you choosing these to discourage black-clicking? I like to use HutFinder to see where the special sites are, but this frustrates checking whether there is an SSC site nearby. How do you do it - wander around or MapEditor?

In terms of tech dates, I think listing the discovery date of Mon/Rep/Dem would help compare our strategies, as I am curious how many others are trying for "instant revolutions" versus putting off switching. Personally, I like discovering Republic early for tech gifting the other civs but I put off the switch a bit till I have explored some more and improved the terrain. With Democracy I have just realized (painfully) the problem of early switch before Galleons come along. Listing the date of founding the SSC might be helpful too. But perhaps the "summary" list is getting too long...

	19-03-2003 23:57									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

SG(2),

Nuclear Power was included to represent that path along the tech tree. It also seemed like a significant milestone.

Elephant,

Continent #1 a second time was just by chance, as I was not even considering this, but for game #3 I will also look for a continent # other than #1 for a change of pace.

I do wander around until I locate an SSC site. Then I know the start is a good one for a comparison game. After that, I continue my own game from where I left off.

The summary is just that, the minimum requirement, and if the majority of players concur, we can make changes to it to make it a better synopsis of the game.

In the meantime, you're all encouraged to add more to your own summary when you post it.

I agree that early Democracy is really tricky. I've always wished there could have been a non-military ship in the game sometime earlier than when galleons appear.

	20-03-2003 00:44									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The nice thing about continent #1 is that it usually means the continent is pretty big, with several AI civs. This helps when demanding tribute under Monarchy, which will not work if you do not have a military unit or city on their continent.

I'm still playing out #1, have started thinking about what I will do differently in #2, but probably wont make that deadline. Dont change it just for me, though...

	20-03-2003 06:47									#14
	Support Apolyton

Was a rough game, losing Copes to the Celts before I or any civ i had contact with had mathmatics, but did do a decent job trading once i did find the Certs (Celts/Carts) continent. Game was already hopelessly behind schedule by then. Again did get a fairly quick start, but once again failed miserably midgame.

Civ 2 version 2.42 Custom (08-Oct-96), Windows ME
AC arrival: 1789 AD

Governments
Monarchy - N/A
Republic: 1650 BC
Democracy: 1580 AD
Communism/Fundamentalism

Wonders
HG
MPE
Shakespeare's Theatere: 350 BC
Colossus: 600 BC
Copernicus
Isaac Newton's College: 560 AD
Leo's
Michaelangelo's
Darwin's: 1020 AD
SETI
Apollo Program: 1760 AD

SSC stats
size 8 : 250 BC
size 12: 50 BC
size 21: 340 AD
max. size: Size 22, 1768 AD

Techs
Trade: 1150 BC
Invention: 380 AD
Railroad: 880 AD
Automobile: 1500 AD
Nuclear Power: 1560 AD
Computers: 1730 AD
Flight: 1640 AD
Space Flight: 1758 AD
AC arrival: 1789 AD


Final thoughts: 1789 is certainly much better than 1926, especially when losing out on Copes. What really doomed me this game was not exploring east with a trireme early enough. No one to the west had any concept of mathematics, let alone astronomy by the time Copes was built (160 AD). Also, by not going east, i lost out on a lot of off-continent deliveries (and quicker deliveries too), not to mention space for an off-continent port city. Also, I probably researched Nuclear Fission too soon. I eventually got to where i could only gift Space Flight or Nuclear Fission, and really didn't want to part with either of those before i was ready to launch, probably costing me a couple of turns on discoveries leading up to launch. With the slow, clunky deliveries west, there were several times midgame i was going 8 turns without discovering anything. I also probably could have sacrified a couple 1-turn discoveries to discover democracy about a millinium earlier. I kept trying to line it up with Oedo years, and kept finding a lack of freights on the appropriate turns to make the discovery so kept researching something else. Also, i had the AI constantly offering alliances, but at the cost of going to war with another civ (carts offered 500 gold about every 150 years). I did get 1 alliance, but only tried 2x for gifts, and was blown off both times - paying more attention to the AI, i might have been able to get quite a bit of gold while in democracy. Also, the fact that our home continent completely wrapped around the world didn't help in trading. Also, i kept debating how to handle growing Home. I used the wheat to get it to 21, and seriously considered irrigating the silk to get the city to have more scientists. Eventually, when i was chopping down forests for the trade arrows, i switched the wheat to silk for the resources and never got it switched back, not sure if having another 5 scientists would have been worth it or not.

For the midgame, i should have finished more libraries before discovering Cerimonial Burial. i switched 2 to temples, wasting some shields. I also and pondering the worthwhileness of having the courthouse in the cities that grew to 8 so that we could use the 8th worker. In a couple cities that was key in being able to produce 10 shields vs 9 without teraforming, but also only allowed for about 6-10 more beakers per city at a cost of 1 gold per city.

On the plus side, it was really cool when Home was producing Hides, and Leptis Parva was demanding it. Starting the round i built superhighways, i was getting deliveries of 600-700 every turn for something like 10 consecutive turns. Also, for later deliveries, i sent a couple engineers to connect Kells and Illauntanig to the coast by railroad, allowing same turn large payoffs (and adding the roads increased their worker arrows ), kind of a compromise for not having trade colonies. Next game I hope to shave another 1-2 centuries off my landing again

Log to follow:

Attachment: sh_a1788.sav
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	20-03-2003 06:49									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I deleted my entire Civ2 directory and reinstalled, however, I still get different commodity lists on my ME machine than i do on my 95 machine and my MGE version - for whatever that disclaimer is worth.

first thoughts: again stuck on continent #1 - who picks these starts? Again, no starting techs - which usually means we have no one in the immediate vicinity, although on a medium map, not sure how much that means. We are near the south pole and near the international date line. We have visible fish, but no other specials, and an off-limits hut in the logical first move location... silk

Civ 2 version 2.42 Custom (08-Oct-96)

BC years
4000: find silk to west, hutfinder says there is not a hidden special north of hut, so if city is founded nw of hut, only a 3 special site. check listings, looks like a 4 special site 4 spaces SW, 6 spaces NNW, decide to go to the SW site to explore (8,64), ponder what to do with 2nd settler. Decide to found where it stands Away founded., arrange for 2 science
3950: choose Alphabet
3850: find build site, there's a lot of forest here, may need a bit of work
3800: Home founded
3750: Alphabet choose Code of Laws
3700: rush warrior at Home
3650: find another silk... (10/22)
3600: rush warrior (Away)
3550: find whale
3500: Code of Laws choose Writing, find wheat - nice to have all Home specials discovered (0/33)
3150: Writing choose Horseback Riding (0/48)
3000: settlers at Home
2750: Beach founded
2700: key civ discovered something, beakers down to (38/40)
2650: Horseback Riding choose Literacy (2/60)
2500: settlers (Away)
2450: diplomat at Home
2350: Sea Pass founded
2200: Literacy choose Republic (0/72), might have a shot at -1850 discovery but will need key civ help
2050: key civ(s) not helping, research now at 27/78
2000: (36/78)
1950: (45/78) alter workers slightly
1900: (53/72)...
1850: (61/72) alter workers again, tinker with tax rate
1700: Chinese start Pyramids, meet spanish and find we are mighty, gift horseback riding, they don't offer techs to exchange and we don't have mapmaking yet, so hold off on other techs
1650: Republic, choose Ceremonial Burial, revolt and form Republic, disband all warriors towards various projects. looks like i'm going to have 2 libraries completed before i discover CB... (0/91)
1600: (22/84)
1550: (44/84)
1500: Celts start Hanging Gardens (68/84)
1450: Library at Home, Ceremonial Burial choose Bronze Working, contact Spanish, trade republic, writing, and literacy for Bronze working, Currency and Mapmaking, gift Code of Laws, but only receptive... research up to 165, we are down to strong, change productions to temples
1400: choose Trade, temples build Away and at Beach
1350: settlers at Sea Pass
1150: Trade choose Mysticism, Helperfounded, diplo prod changed to caravans, Temple will be finished at Home next turn, pause to decide whether worth brief luxury hike, would require up to 50%, or 20% since still finishing temples, could get Home to 4-5, find madrid
1000: Home at 5, lower luxes
975: find Germans, gift Republic and prereqs for maps, increase science at home 25% with einstiens, lowers mysticism by 1 turn
950: diplomat sent home, we are back up to mighty, beakers at 180
875: Mysticism choose Philosophy, halve luxuries, Hides (Home) delivered to Beach (d,40), rush temple
825: Chinese (Beijing) builds Pyramids, Celts (Carmarthen) builds Hanging Gardens
775: realize it may have been a mistake to grow Home to 5 without medicine...
700: Philosophy, Wheel, choose Medicine (225 beakers)
675: Germans start Great Library
625: complete 3 caravans,
600: Colossus at Home
575: Chinese start Great Library
475: Medicine, choose Masonry, contact Germans, exchange for Masonry and Seafaring, contact Spanish, exchange for Iron Working, strong... means chinese is key civ...
450: choose Construction
350: Shakespeare's Theatere
250: Home size 8, deplete luxuries
225: Sioux, Celts start Lighthouse
200: Harbor in Home, Construction, choose Engineering, Silver (d,100) to Home
150: Aquaduct in Home, realised i had left one of my delivery caravans sentries on a sentried trireme
75: Spanish start Great Library, Carthagenians start King Richard's Crusade, Hides (d, 28) Away to Beach
50: Home size 12, deplete luxuries
25: first caravan in line for Spanish, contact trying for maps, they blow me off...


AD Years

1 AD Marketplace at Home, discover Engineering, find Valencia
40: Celts (Cardiff) build the Lighthouse, gift about 6 techs (every extra i have) to Germans to get to worshipful for maps, find Chinese city, all still on same continent...
80: hides (d, 28) to Beach, found Near Home to act as a station
100: Dye (d,64) to Toledo, find Seville
120: Seville builds Great Library - not going to get much gifting to Spanish now..., Beijing builds Marco Polo's Embassy
140: Sanitation, choose Mathematics, not enough gold to rush sewer, raise lux
160: Utica (Carthagenian) builds King Richard's Crusade, Celts (Cardiff) build Copernicus' Observatory
180: Sewer System at Home
260: find Carthagenians, exchange for Mathematics, gift 2 more techs for maps, I'm still Strong...
280: choose Astronomy... beakers at 672
300: Meet Chinese, gift techs for maps, gift about 10 more and get beakers to 576
340: Home size 21, Copper to Seville (d, 288) from Home, Dye to Shanghai (d, 120) from Sea Pass
380: Slim Buttes (Sioux) build Oracle, we discover Invention, choose University, get Monarchy from Germans when checking to see if they have anything worth taking...
400: Gems to Seville (d, 207), spanish are Icy, contact for peace and gift Trade?
420: Silk to Home (d, 75) from Near Home
440: University, choose Theory of Gravity, start building colosseums in helper cities, Dye to Madrid (d, 42) from Helper, Salt to Berlin (d, 60) from Beach,
520: Theory of Gravity choose Navigation, try and figure where the heck i can put a trade colony - the best traders are all on my continent, i may found a city near Utica, but would be a port for delivery there, carts have filled in their area, and i need roads leading there. Celts seem to be north of the Carts, Sioux seem to be north of spanish on (possibly on same continent) means Carts and Celts are only off-continent traders - heck, our continent seems to wrap around and overlap, with the easternmost portion lying north of the westernmost portion.
560: Isaac Newton's College
600: Navigation, choose Bridge Building, found Almost a Colony, should demand the gold once i get 3 more techs...
640: Hides to Nanking (d, 252) from Home
660: Bridge Building choose Feudalism, trade for Feudalism from Carthagenians, darn carts still don't know what a Celt city looks like
680: choose Physics
700: Silver to Home (d, 67) from Near Home, creates Wine supply but blocks all 3 demands at Home...
720: Physics, choose Chemistry wonder why its not offering Steam Engine , Beads to Tsingtao (d, 212) from Home, meet Celts, gift for maps
760: Chemistry choose Steam Engine, Beads to Cardiff (d, 108) from Sea Pass
800: gold to Near Home (d, 81) from Home
820: Steam Engine choose Railroad
840: Hides to Nanking (d, 258) from Home
860: Seville (Spanish) builds Leonardo's Workshop, Leptis Parva (Carthagenian) builds Sun Tsu's War Acadamy, 2 separate barb landings near Almost a Colony
880: Railroad, choose gunpowder
920: Spanish show off gunpower, gift 2 techs and exchange for Gunpowder
940: choose Pottery, exchange railroad with chinese for Pottery we're still strong so gift everything else too - beakers at 988
960: Explosives choose Polytheism, trade for Polytheism with Carts, we're still strong
980: Beads to Canton (d, 60) from Beach, Wine to Carthage (d, 384), Dye to Malaca (d, 259) from Home
1000: Magnetism, choose Banking
1020: Darwin's Voyage, Banking, Industrialization, choose Metalurgy,
1040: Gems to Tsingtao (d, 212) from Home
1060: Machiavelli's report shows who my key civ has been as the Chinese are 2nd most advanced , and the Spanish, with their great library are 3rd. the Sioux, who i have yet to contact are dead last. somehow I've slipped to Moderate? means i need to gift the Spanish now..., rush everything before contacting since i have no power rating now..., only 2 techs able to gift... beakers down to 1118
1080: Metalurgy
1100: Magellan's Expedition built by Celts (Tintagel). Dye to Carthage (d, 72) from Almost a Colony
1120: Spice to Beijing (d, 286) from Home
1140: Economics, choose The Corportation, Silver to Carthage (d, 120) from Sea Pass, Copper to Madrid (d, 54), Wool to Carthage (xd, 64) 2 more undemanded caravans to Carthage, both around 50, frees Silver
1200: The Corporation choose Electricity, found Port City
1240: Spanish offer alliance? accept, gift techs and share maps! They've founded Bilbao where i was going to plant my last settler, found Former Settler
1260: hides to Cadiz (d,70) to from Home, Dye to Nanking (d, 58) from Near Home
1280: Electricity, share maps with several civs, Hides to Leptis Parva (d, 308) from Home, Hides to Berlin (d, 59) from Helper
1300: Gold to Madrid (d, 204), Hides (xd, 46) to Valencia from Home,
1320: Chinese demonstrate Democracy, we discover Steel, choose Chivalry, Oil (d,98, d,140, d, 133) Dye (d,72) to Home, Hides (d,308, d,52) to Leptis Parva, gift techs to Spanish
1340: Chivalry, choose Refining, Oil (d, 72) to Home, Wine (d, 64) to Salamanca, Hides (d, 308) to Leptis Parva, Copper (d,76) to Caralis
1360: hides (d,162, 44) to Hamburg
1380: Refining, choose Electronics, Gems (d, 600) to Caralis, Hides (d,52) to Leptis Parva
1400: Salt (d, 88) to Tintagel, Hides (280) to Leptis Parva
1420: Electronics, choose Combustion, Dye (d, 56) to Utica
1440: Carthage builds Eifel Tower, Salt (d, 115) to Tintagel, Hides (316) to Leptis Parva
1460: Combustion, choose Automobile, dye (d, 132) to Nanking, salt (d,64) to Tintagel, Gems (d,188) to Cardiff, Salt (xd, 39) to Home
1480: Hides (d,56, d, 320) to Leptis Parva
1500: Automobile choose Mass Production, Beads (d,168) to Kells, Dye (d, 110) to Beijing
1510: Superhighways at Home, Hides (d,606) to Leptis Parva
1520: Mass Production, Hides (d,606) to Leptis Parva, start rushing Superhighways
1530: Leadership, choose Nuclear Fission (Home made discovery, won't be able to discover next turn (again) Hides (d,606) to Leptis Parva,
1540: Beads (d,108) to Kells, Beads (d,606) to Leptis Parva, start rushing libraries
1550: Nuclear Fission, choose Nuclear Power, Salt (d,372) to Caerphilly, Hides (d, 660) to Leptis Parva
1560: Chinese build Statue of Liberty, we discover Nuclear Power choose The Laser, Salt (d,222) to Caerphilly, Hides (d, 690) to Leptis Parva - I'm not looking forward to Flight, those Hides deliveries are going to get decimated - Colossus+Superhighways+3 RR silk
1570: The Laser, choose Democracy (took forever to line up with Oedo years, probably should have cranked taxes for a couple turns a few centuries ago...), Hides (d,702) to Leptis Parva
1580: discover, revolt, form Democracy, choose Conscription, Hides (d, 756) to Leptis Parva
1590: Conscription, choose Tactics - no more hides at Home was a good run though , Salt (d,120) to Berlin
1600: not much, all supplies currently blocked, partly by shipchains out of place with change of demand
1620: Tactics, choose Flight more moving of freight, delay flight by starting celebrations, not enough gold to rush last superhighway so buy courthouse, salt
1630: Salt (d,1134) to Tintagel
1640: Flight, choose Machine Tools, Spice (d, 200), Gems (d, 492) to Nanking, Gold (d, 200) to Beijing, Beads (xd, 130) to Rhymney
1650: Machine Tools choose Radio, salt (xd, 56) to Beach, resets both Beach and Home Lists
1660: Toynbee describes me as hopeless in the Power Ratings. Dye (d, 256), Wine (xd, 282) to Carthage
1670: Dye (d,244) to Kells
1680: Radio, choose Miniaturization, hides (d,140) Salt (xd, 56) to Leptis Parva
1690: hides (d,140) to Leptis Parva
1700: Spanish finish Michaelangelo's, we discover Miniaturization
1710: nothing much
1720: Salt (xd, 112) to Utica
1730: Computers, choose Advanced Flight, wine (d, 277) to Salamanca,
1750: Advanced Flight, choose Rocketry Hides (xd, 50) Home from Away, frees commodities in both cities
Hides (d, 220) to Panormus, Salt (xd, 55) to Home, Hides (xd, 114) to Carthage
1752: wine (d,277) to Salamanca
1754: Beijing builds UN, we discover Rocketry, choose Space Flight
1758: Space Flight choose Plastics, Dye (d, 244), Gems (d, 996) to Kells, Salt (xd, 122) to Illauntanig
1760: Apollo Program, Plastics, choose Monotheism, gold (d,312) to Cork, gems (d,426) to Kells, Dye (d, 344) to Illauntanig, exchange several techs for Monotheism with Chinese (current key civ)
1762: choose Superconductor, 6 SSS, Superconductor, choose Fusion Power
1764: 2 SSS
1766: 3 SSS, Gems (d,426), Gems (d,996) to Kells
1768: 2 SSS, 1 SSC, Home size 22, Wine (d,540) to Armagh, Gems (d,1020) to Kells, Dye (d,276), Salt (xd, 128) to Illauntanig, sell several harbors, sell sewer system, sell several libraries
1770: Fusion Power, choose Genetic Engineering, 2 SSS, 3 SSC, Copper (d,140) to Utica, Salt (xd, 128) to Illauntanig, sell aquaduct, 1 more harbor, several more libraries
1772: 2 SSC, gems (d,450) to Kells, Dye (d,800), Dye (d,396) to Illauntanig, contact allied Spanish, gift advanced Flight, ask for gift, they tell me to shove off (I'm only strong), sell 5 superhighways, last library
1774: Sioux demand trade, physics, gift 2 more techs trying for alliance, they want war with chinese, so decline, 3 SSM, Launch, target AC in 1789
1775: Dye (d,396), Beads (xd, 400) to Illauntanig
1776: Genetic Engineering, choose Mobile Warfare, Dye (d,696) to Kells, salt (xd,83) to Illauntanig (no SH)
1780: Mobile Warfare, choose Robotics
1782: Carthagenians decide to land and walk into Sea Pass, then offer me 500 gold for me to go to war against the Celts. for 700 gold, purchace my city back.
1789: belated landing on Alpha Centauri

Last edited by SCG on 20-03-2003 at 07:07

	20-03-2003 07:04									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

SCG,

WooHoo!! Shaved off 137 yrs on, in my opinion, a much harder start. Congratulations. I will resist reading your log in the interest of getting more done in my game. Postmortems after we have finished.

Yes, these have been challenging, no tech starts. But it is about playing the given map as opposed to getting the earliest date for a super record. We all start with the same hand, so to speak...except for those anomolous differences caused by the OS in use.

Monk

	20-03-2003 11:28									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Governments
Monarchy
Republic 1250 BC
Democracy AD 1660
Communism/Fundamentalism

Wonders
HG
MPE
ST AD 140
Colossus
Copernicus AD 860
Isaac's AD 1550
Leo's
Michaelangelo's
Darwin's AD 1760
SETI AD 1850
Apollo AD 1865

SSC stats
size 8 AD 400
size 12 AD 560
size 21 AD 1360
max. size 23 (AD 1776)

Techs
Trade 625 BC
Invention AD 1060
Railroad AD 1690
Automobile AD 1778
Nuclear Power AD 1812
Computers AD 1848
Flight AD 1851
Space Flight AD 1863

AC arrival AD 1900

I managed to improve my landing time by 50 years - not as much as SCG, but at least an improvement. I lost quite a few turns when my SSC site was threatened by a barb trireme with archers in 525 BC. Th bigest drama was in the 1850s when I got into a small war with the Chinese who walked into my undefended capital

My real failure was that I didn't establish a good trading partner or pattern. Most of my deliveries from my SSC were undemanded.

Oh well, there's always game #3

RJM at Sleepers

Attachment: sh_a1899.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	20-03-2003 12:30									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I've looked at SCG's save and realised I didn't use the 4 special site as my SSC. I was emotionaly committed to my choosen site before I found the (8,64) site and I didn't realise it was a 4 special until later when I uncovered the whale. Since I don't use "hut finder" I don't know about 4 special sites until I reach them. (I've only just noticed the 4 special site at (11,51)).

RJM at Sleepers

	21-03-2003 11:36									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by solo Continent #1 a second time was just by chance, as I was not even considering this, but for game #3 I will also look for a continent # other than #1 for a change of pace. The summary is just that, the minimum requirement, and if the majority of players concur, we can make changes to it to make it a better synopsis of the game.

Since we can't ban black clicking, I think starting on continent 1 is a neat work around so I vote for continuing with it if we can.

Also, I've been thinking about the game save. In my games the period after discovering fusion power and especially between launch and landing are very different from the rest of the game - selling white goods during SS construction phase and rush building all sorts of things after launch. Would it be more instructive to post a game save on the turn you discover fusion power rather than the turn before landing?

RJM at Sleepers

	21-03-2003 23:13									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

RJM,

I think using continent #1 for every game may not be to the liking of some, so I will just stick to the first start I find with a decent SSC site, and not even take into consideration the continent #. Different continent #'s affect trade in different ways, and I think some variety here is a good thing.

Your other idea for posting on the launch turn sounds good to me for the reasons you state. For now I'll accept a save from the launch turn or from the turn before landing, since either can be used to verify the landing date.

	22-03-2003 01:44									#21
	Remove this text

I just finished my own game, and was able to arrive in 1141 AD. After being smoked by a number of other players during the first half of the last game, I made some changes to my early strategy, putting a little more focus on science and early trade match ups.

Due to a minor blunder mentioned in an earlier post, I ended up having to learn Warrior Code and also had to trade for the dreaded Pottery in time to learn Seafaring for the harbor I needed. Not meeting all the AI early hurt me there, but since I did have contact with the key civ, I was happy enough and concentrated on science, which worked well.

Without road or rail bonuses, I was held to only two turns later on with two advances, and the second half pace was behind that of game #1, but the early tech lead in game #2 held up. I had a lot more trouble this game getting enough gold to keep up with my plans.

For now I will post a summary and a save at the time of launch.

ELG #2, deity, raging, standard map & options, Zulus, 2.42

Republic 1850 b
Democracy 460 a

Shakespeare’s 325 b
Colossus 280 a
Copernicus 125 b
Isaac Newton’s 180 a
Darwin’s 560 a
Apollo 1060 a

Size 8 – 250 b
Size 12 – 150 b
Size 21 – 260 a
Max. size – 27

Trade 1000 b
Invention 260 a
Railroad 540 a
Automobile 740 a
Nuclear Power 840 a
Computers 980 a
Flight 900 a
Space Flight 1040 a

AC Arrival 1141 a

	22-03-2003 02:49									#22
	Remove this text

Lord - you are soooooo lucky - I got the Colossus in 500BC by dint of sacrificing the entire Cavalry of the Empire, just before the bloody Chinese

SG[1] - envious.....

	22-03-2003 04:31									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

looking at just the scaled version of the log, it confirms the lack of meeting the Celts or Carts early killed me - I beat Solo to Trade, Colossus and Shakespeare's Theater, same turn to size 8, and was effectively 1 turn behind on republic (i would have discovered in 1800 bc but delayed for oedo year). However, I was unable to obtain astronomy and lost out on it, thereby blowing my chance as i wallowed in dead time between discoveries immediately after. Gives me hope for in ELC#3

	22-03-2003 12:23									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Great game Solo - I look forward to the game save.

(Although I'm not sure someone who is still buying paint by numbers kits can learn a great deal by looking at the Mona Lisa.)

SCG

I presume from your comments that you control early unrest with warriors since you talk about disbanding them. I usually go for CB as my 4th tech (building barracks that I convert to temples). My reasoning is (was?) that way there are no wasted shields. It clearly doesn't work so I'll try a different route But why Horseback riding rather than (say) bronze working?

RJM at Sleepers

	22-03-2003 17:53									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i don't go for CB first because it delays republic by 1 tech. As for horseback riding vs bronzeworking, i guess it depends on who the close AI are. My orginal thinking was to get a 2-movement explorer, but i don't seem to be building them, and bronzeworking would allow me to get to Trade several turns earlier in games i can't trade for it (this game i was able to trade for it)- will look into that next game

	22-03-2003 21:43									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

SG(1),

Yes, I was lucky to have Colossus available so late in the game. AI wonder choices seem to be at random, and this can hurt or help us in a big way, depending on how they “choose”. I built Colossus earlier (and just before an AI civ!) in our first game.

It looks to me that if an AI does not start a wonder permitted by the tech just acquired, that they “forget” it exists and do not reconsider building it while newer wonders are still available.

RJM,

I’ve looked over your save and summary. A nice improvement over your first game, in spite of some bad luck, such as the early barb attack, losing your capital to the Chinese and the delaying war. Missing a better SSC site hurt your progress, too, but you are right that (11,51) was a good alternative site. Did you notice (27,51), too, which had 2 whales and 2 fish? This would have been my choice, if I had not already committed to the 2 silk, wheat and whale near the starting position.

I agree with you that Ceremonial Burial is a good choice for the 4th tech, since Literacy can not be researched right after Writing. With CB you get an earlier start on temples and not as many warriors are needed. So my advice is to stick with this plan. Horseback Riding can be skipped, since diplomats can explore as fast as horsies and because you should never learn a tech yourself that you can be sure will be available from the AI through trade. This is one tech most of them always have, and I delay the trade hoping they will learn The Wheel before I need it.

You might try a replay of this game for some more practice while waiting for game #3 to start.

Oops, I meant SCG,

Your log is most interesting and well written! You’ve also zeroed in pretty well on what went wrong and what could have been done for a better landing date, but hey, this was an excellent result considering you lacked Copernicus. It’s hard to compete with only half of the science others are using, but you still managed a big improvement over the first game. You get off to terrific starts, and then it happens, some unlucky event ruining your chances for a great game! I’m just wondering what it will be in the next game!

I agree you missed the boat a bit by not finding the Certs earlier, but with a little black clicking in the beginning of the game, it is usually easy to locate the closest continent, even if you are on continent #1. After all, you know where you are, when you are on #1, and the coastline becomes obvious as you start to explore. I don’t consider being on #1 as much as a problem as when the nearest overseas AI are on #1, since that makes it harder to know where to look for those important early trading partners. However, once found, you made out well by trading hides. I also hit pay dirt with early trades to Carthaginian cities, which grew quickly, were easy to reach, and had excellent amounts of base trade.

With no chances for roaded or railed routes to AI cities, I knew that the SSC would have to be larger, so I did convert my SSC silk to wheat just before celebrating from size 21 to 27. This is something you considered that probably would have paid off, since each extra scientist or tax collector adds a lot. I wish I had had time to add farmland, but all those other forests had to be chopped followed by roads and irrigation, and this took too much time.

I also had some fits when trying to find the best place for colonies. Almost a Colony was very well named! Island #5 had good possibilities, but I did not notice this until much later, after Apollo revealed most of it. The Certs took away some good potential sites, too, and I never had enough gold to bribe away one or two of their cities.

I think a strategy of trying to time the discovery of Democracy with Oedo years is a bit overrated, too. It’s much more important to be a Democracy early than to fiddle with this so long!

In 720 AD you wonder why you can not research Steam Engine. The answer to this question is that at that time you had acquired 31 techs, and Steam Engine would have been 32nd. However, this tech is in Oedo group #2, which is omitted from tech lists when the remainder of total techs/3 = 2, which it is in this case (32/3=10 with a remainder of 2). Are you aware you can predict any list of tech choices by using Oedo’s discoveries detailed in the “Techs – Next Available” entry of SG’s Great Library?

You ought to replay this one if you have time just to see what you could have done with Copernicus. Twice as well, I would expect!

I omitted my save at the time of launch in my summary post, so here it is:

Attachment: sh_a1120.sav
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

Last edited by solo on 23-03-2003 at 00:49

	22-03-2003 22:11									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by solo SG(2) Your log is most interesting and well written! You’ve ...

*wonders if he should move to England and take up wine tasting as a hobby *

quote: In 720 AD you wonder why you can not research Steam Engine. The answer to this question is that at that time you had acquired 31 techs, and Steam Engine would have been 32nd. However, this tech is in Oedo group #2, which is omitted from tech lists when the remainder of total techs/3 = 2, which it is in this case (32/3=10 with a remainder of 2). Are you aware you can predict any list of tech choices by using Oedo’s discoveries detailed in the “Techs – Next Available” entry of SG’s Great Library?

I'll have to look that one up, i've been periodically scrolling through the strategy forum periodically for threads I missed while on my last hiatus from Civ, must have missed that one

quote: You ought to replay this one if you have time just to see what you could have done with Copernicus. Twice as well, I would expect!

I'm pretty sure i could do a sub-1600 landing and maybe a sub-1500 landing, may see if i have the time later

not now though, the Space Luddites are getting rather ansy over in the General forum

	22-03-2003 22:16									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

solo ... your reference above to SG(2) should read SCG

---------------------------

SG(2)

	22-03-2003 23:02									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

ETA - AC 1176

I'm still plodding through 36 post launch years! It seems I was on solo's tail for most of the way but he raced away at the end.

I was broke and it took ages to build the ship

Governments
Monarchy 2050BC
Republic 225BC
Democracy 460AD
(Am presently at 1147 and still in Demo)

Wonders
Hanging Gardens 850BC
Colossus 700BC
Shakespeare's Theatre 200BC
Copernicus' Observatory 40AD
Isaac Newton's College 280AD
Michelangelo's Chapel 320AD
Darwin's Voyage 640AD
Apollo Program 1060AD

SSC Size
Size 8 - 150BC
Size 12 - 25BC
Size 21 - 520AD
Size 25 - 700AD

Events
Trade 900BC
Invention 320AD
Railroad 620AD
Automobile 760AD
Nuclear Power 840AD
Computers 920AD
Flight 940AD
Space Flight 1000AD
Launch 1140AD

I tried a few different things this time. I will post my thoughts when I actually reach AC in 1176!

-------------------------

SG(2)

	23-03-2003 01:01									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Maybe I should try SCG(2)

SG(2),

Super game! In fact, you got to Space Flight two turns earlier than I did, and completed two more wonders than me beforehand. This could be why you ran low on gold near the end. I look forward to the post mortem when we can compare our games in more detail.