23-03-2003 03:00									#31
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Congratulations to Solo and SG(2)

Very well done, sirs.

Monk

	23-03-2003 04:31									#32
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by solo Yes, I was lucky to have Colossus available so late in the game. AI wonder choices seem to be at random, and this can hurt or help us in a big way, depending on how they “choose”.

Do AIs change a wonder building? I mean if no other civ overtake them.
In other words shall I be afraid they change the production unawares?

	23-03-2003 05:07									#33
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanks solo and Monk. It goes without saying that solo played a superb game. Congratulations

solo - can you PM me with your email address as there are some saves I would like you to see regarding trade. I will publish them here but will wait until everyone has finished.

Slow Thinker - I built the Gardens the hard way without caravans. Early on I mined the wheat to silk in the SSC and was able to make 10 shields a turn. I was lucky with Trade ... exchanging it with the Spanish.

-------------

SG(2)

	23-03-2003 06:00									#34
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

SG(2),
It looks my strategy with the slow monarchy wasn't so bad, because I was able to get trade as fast as you and not from an exchange. Usually I set taxes to 60% in 4000BC and switch to 40% when about 80-100 beakers is needed for the monarchy, i.e. after the 3rd tech. But the exact time of the switch depends on a proximity of the Oedo year.

I see I made a mistake by not exploring and contacting Spanish sooner. I was afraid i could get a bad tech before trade and so I waited to MPE (even I contacted them a couple of turns before the MPE).

	23-03-2003 07:08									#35
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Could you post also a list of lucky/unlucky moments and main mistakes with your logs?

I am in the middle of the game but I can post something:

I don't know if I made a mistake by not exploring and not trying to exchange techs early. I decided not to risk a bad tech on the way to monarchy (5th tech) and trade (8th tech)- they cannot be researched as the 6th resp. 9th tech. But now I see that everybody got a goos deal from exchanges.

I was very happy to not to get barbs, because I was barb-resistent only after monarchy.
The defence against the barbs is a problem in the early game. If you want to be safe as much as possible then you have to sacrifice almost all your economic potential: you have to research writing fast and to block 63 gold for bribing purposes or to go for Horseback Riding and to build a bunch of horsemen. But if you want to beat solo you risk and you bank on a good luck...
What about to postpone the 16-turn no-barb limit farther and to allow reloads say up to 1500BC for the Game #3?

	23-03-2003 07:15									#36
	Support Apolyton

SG(2), I see a problem with the non-caravan wonders: shields are blocked for long time and so I always compose wonders from caravans.

	23-03-2003 07:47									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker SG(2), I see a problem with the non-caravan wonders: shields are blocked for long time and so I always compose wonders from caravans.

And well you should, once trade is available However, before trade is available, basically what SG(2) did was build 4 caravans without rushing (probably rushed in other cities) and stored them in the his SSC, in the form of a wonder he considers to be of very high value.

	23-03-2003 11:12									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Do AIs change a wonder building? I mean if no other civ overtake them.

I have seen an AI change the wonder it was building without being overtaken - presumably because they discovered a new tech. It doesn't seem to happen very often though.

RJM at Sleepers

	23-03-2003 17:25									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by RJM at Sleepers I have seen an AI change the wonder it was building without being overtaken - presumably because they discovered a new tech. It doesn't seem to happen very often though.

I would be still nervous on solo's place (Colossus 280 ad) if it is not 100% sure. Solo, do you know the mechanism of changing the wonder production by the AIs?

quote: Originally posted by SCG basically what SG(2) did was build 4 caravans without rushing (probably rushed in other cities) and stored them in the his SSC, in the form of a wonder he considers to be of very high value.

But first three caravans weren't stored in the form of a wonder, they simply waited.

	23-03-2003 19:04									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker SG(2), I see a problem with the non-caravan wonders: shields are blocked for long time and so I always compose wonders from caravans.

I would rather build Wonders with caravans every time. However before Trade you are sometimes stuck for something sensible to construct in the SSC. If Trade does come along before it's finished the completion is made using freight.

------------------------------

SG(2)

	23-03-2003 21:01									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

SG(2),

My email address is on the way.

ST,

I like your idea of including the date of key civ contact in the summary, and will add this item next game.

I will preserve saves if you would like to see them. Do you care to see any from game #1. If so, please give me a list of years that are of interest.

Early AI contact is always good. A well-timed trade sometimes helps you get to Monarchy or Trade quicker by resetting the tech list, or you can often trade for a tech along the path to these techs. When contact is made the AI may suggest a trade, allowing you to know one of its techs. You can always refuse to trade techs if they offer something you don't want.

I do use a diplomat and keep an emergency reserve of gold early in the game to guard against barbs. Later, after some things have been built in cities, I no longer need this reserve, since an improvement can be sold in an emergency to raise extra cash.

If you and enough other players want to reduce the barb threat, I would prefer to do this by lowering the barb setting when starting the game, rather than allow reloads until 1500 BC.

As for the Colossus, I consider this wonder to be nice to have, but hardly essential, so was not concerned about delaying it so long in my game. Notice that I went to Flight fairly early, which cancels Colossus. It's also been my experience that if none of the AI start building this one early they tend to "forget" about it, or focus more on newer wonders. I have not run any tests to analyze their choices and changes when building wonders, but find this is not usually a problem in early landings where I'm almost always first to the wonders I want to build.

Very often the SSC or another city can build a wonder using shields before the discovery of Trade. We used to do this all the time in OCC games, where the Colossus was built very early on. I can see that doing this could be a very good idea in early landing games, too, with the proof being SG(2)'s excellent result in game #2.

	23-03-2003 21:42									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by solo ST, I like your idea of including the date of key civ contact in the summary, and will add this item next game.

or in my case each key civ? this last game, i started supreme, fell to mighty, then strong, then moderate, then back to strong, then back to moderate.

I pulled up my save from 1120, and several of my AI civs had far more cities and/or population than in your game (my celts have 16 cities, and a population at almost 5.5 mil, Spanish have 11 cities, Carts have 8 cities, Chinese have over 3 mil pop)

I know some of that is simply sooner contact. I've watched a number of AI go from expanionist to perfectionist after contact with me in past games

main point is I may need 3-4 key civ contacts

Reguarding Barbs, raging hordes are fine, as there really aren't going to be many cases where its a problem (you buy one, and it effectively becomes part of rushing the next item)

	23-03-2003 22:08									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Good point, so in the summary, I'll limit this to date of first contact with your first key civ.

	23-03-2003 22:23									#44
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by solo Good point, so in the summary, I'll limit this to date of first contact with your first key civ.

just one more point of clarification - say my rating falls to a civ i already have contact with (happened for both chinese and spanish as key civs). I'm assuming in this case, itsthe date when my rating fell to make a previously contacted Civ a key civ, rather than first contact with that key civ?

	23-03-2003 22:59									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yes, the date should be the earliest one that you get to benefit from gifting techs to a key civ, even if you met that civ before it became your first key civ of the game.

	23-03-2003 23:39									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by solo In 720 AD you wonder why you can not research Steam Engine. The answer to this question is that at that time you had acquired 31 techs, and Steam Engine would have been 32nd. However, this tech is in Oedo group #2, which is omitted from tech lists when the remainder of total techs/3 = 2, which it is in this case (32/3=10 with a remainder of 2). Are you aware you can predict any list of tech choices by using Oedo’s discoveries detailed in the “Techs – Next Available” entry of SG’s Great Library?

Solo,

Seeing this I remembered that I have had on my to-do list for ages copying DaveV's list to a Word file to keep it handy. In the process of putting the list into columns (alpha by type, 0-1-2), I was shocked to find Plumbing in the list. I'm sure I've never noticed it before. It is probably an advance that was dropped before making the game final.

Am I correct in assuming that the presence of Plumbing does NOT alter the values of the succeeding advances?? Thanks

Monk

	24-03-2003 02:11									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Monk,

Although dropped from the actual game, Plumbing is still on the list in Rules.txt, so it gets assigned to one of the groups, too. This anomaly is what created the confusion some had about the timing Pottery's appearance, since Pottery would have been in Plumbing's place.

A very easy way to use this info, if you do not mind marking up your tech tree chart, is to write the number from DaveV's list for each tech on the chart. Then when a new list is presented, just see what groups are represented (omit the first tech, of course, since it is the joker). If tech choices belong to groups 0 and 1, the next list will omit the "0" techs since "2's" are not on this one. On the following list, it will be the "1" techs that are missing. This makes it easy to chart an optimal path and to know when to make trades to skip over unwanted lists. This is so useful, I've added a section to my ELG guide describing it in detail with some accompanying examples.

Incidently, joker techs were used to make sure tech lists always have at least one choice, since it is possible at times that all of the eligible techs will be from the group being omitted! Also notice that on certain paths along the tech tree, 3 techs in a row are in the same group, such as Railroad-Industrialization-Corporation (0's) or Flight-Radio-Advanced Flight (2's)

	24-03-2003 03:27									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Solo,

Adding this info to the techtree chart is an excellent idea. Thank you.

Monk

	24-03-2003 04:50									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Monk, did you ever try Civ2 Planner?
http://home-1.worldonline.cz/~cz045...an/civ2plan.htm

	24-03-2003 05:18									#50
	Remove this text

SlowT,

Thanks for the idea.

Unfortunately, I am intimidated by the statement, "this is an MS DOS program." In this respect I am as timid as a rabbit; and like our favorite Rabbit, I learned about computers on a Mac. That means I prefer/need a more user friendly helper.

It's cool that someone went to the trouble to make that tool. I applaud such creativity. But, for me, the "marked up" techtree chart works and seems a more simple solution. With that tool, all I have to worry about is a papercut.

Monk

	24-03-2003 05:26									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Oh, MS-DOS programs can be very user friendly.
And Civ2Planner is sufficiently friendly.

	25-03-2003 00:27									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by solo I will preserve saves if you would like to see them. Do you care to see any from game #1. If so, please give me a list of years that are of interest.

Solo, I think I will abandon the game #1. But after I will finish the game (it will last long time, but I can take saves now if you don't want to retain them) I would like to see them: 1. periodic views/saves say 20 turns apart; 2. detailed view to the beginning and some other interesting part of the game (say 5 consecutives turns).

	25-03-2003 02:21									#53
	Remove this text

ST,

Okay, here is a zip file containing 9 different turns from game #1 at about 20 turn intervals. If you want others after checking these, let me know.

Attachment: game1.zip
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

	25-03-2003 02:34									#54
	Suffering from ads?

Solo, excuse me please. I wanted to say 'But after I will finish the game #2...', I forgot to add the number.
But I am interested about the game #1 and your way of playing too, and I can look at the saves immediately because i won't continue this game. I will download it.

	25-03-2003 02:37									#55
	Put an end to popups!

Hi all!

I just finished my game. Here is the basic log:

Monarchy 2050 BC
Republic 225 BC
Democracy 380 AD

Colossus 450 AD
Shakespeare´s 225 AD
Copernicus 140 AD
Newton 320 AD
Appollo 1260 AD

8 - 125 BC
12 - 40 AD
21 - 520 AD

Trade 725 BC
Invention 340 AD
Railroad 600 AD
Automobile 840 AD
Flight 1040 AD
Computers 1120 AD
Space Flight 1160
Nuclear Power 1200 AD
AC Arrival 1395 AD

I had a try on early monarchy and a reasonably good start. It´s amazing how Scouse Gits could build HG and Colossus so early, but some dates like Monarchy, Republic, Size 21, Invention and railroad are quite similar. I lost track in the mid and end game. The Celts were conquered by barbarians very early and I had only the Carthaginiens as a trading partner on continent 2. To bribe barbarian Cardiff later on was a good deal but I hardly ever could deliver a wanted commodity to the Carthaginiens. I also suffered from barbarian attacks and lost 2 cities in the late game (including a transporter and 5 trucks).
Something I realized for the first time: I couldn´t go beyond size 15 under republic and beyond size 21 under democracy. My SSC was not the capital and did not get the additional happy citizen from the palace. I should have build the palace in my SSC. Or do I miss something about WLT_D?
Thanks to Solo for his insights on trade in his postings. I realize I still have to learn a lot there.

Zenon

	25-03-2003 03:02									#56
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Zenon, you showed a very good performance if we take into account that you lost Celts.

About WLTxD - I think the problem is not related to the size of your SSC but to the number of your cities. I think you lost the first content citizen (before any adjustment made by luxuries and other happiness factors - see the first line of the happiness analysis of the SSC) due to an unhappiness caused by too many of cities.
In deity there may be a problem to celebrate from an odd city size if all citizens are unhappy before any adjustment, because luxuries work only city size steps resp. only 2*city size luxuries is effective. So if you have a city of size 21 then only 2*21 luxuries are effective, and so 10 citizens are turned happy and one content.
Only way would be to build even more cities and to make 'the black hat bug' effective. For example in democracy the problem started when you had more than 11 and less than 20 cities and the first citizens turned to unhappy. But from 21 to 30 cities the first citizens turns to very unhappy (black hat) and so after 21 cities your odd sized cities start to be able to celebrate again. After 30 cities all cities can celebrate without any problem.
Another solution is capital or courthouse (in democracy), HG or Cure for Cancer.

See my two large posts in Apolyton CS Forums - happiness quirk...

Edit: Some words were 'lost'...

Last edited by SlowThinker on 25-03-2003 at 05:04

	25-03-2003 04:34									#57
	Put an end to popups!

Zenon - Welcome to Apolyton and congratulations on a very good game!
I believe in aggressive exploration to obtain tribute and swap techs - essential when huts play no part in the game.

---------------------

SG(2)

	25-03-2003 04:52									#58
	Full PM-box? Change here!

SG(2),
I beieve to MPE. In 800BC I built it and got 450 gold.

	25-03-2003 23:39									#59
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Slow Thinker,

thanks for the information. I know the basic facts about unhappyness, though I never studied the details as you did. However, you helped me find the problem now. At size 15 I had just founded my 8th city (first colony) and it did not turn 1 citizen in annother city unhappy as I thought but 2. The second indeed was in my SSC and kept me from celebrating further. At size 21 under democracy the 21st citizen does not get a city field and therefore takes out the content citizen. It doesn´t help to have an entertainer as it only adds to the luxuries that allready are at maximum.
So the solution seems to be palace, courthouse or Hanging Gardens. Black hats will be no alternative in an early landing game.

Zenon

	26-03-2003 00:47									#60
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Welcome Zenon,

A fine game!

You are right about needing a palace or courthouse. If the SSC is not the capital, I usually add a courthouse there to get beyond size 21 in Democracy. Extra cities can mess up celebrations, as can too many military units supported by the SSC that happen to be outside of cities. In game #2, I had two triremes supported by my SSC in Democracy, but had to park one in a city during SSC celebrations.

It's good to see a new face, and I hope to have my ELG guide done fairly soon, in which I've tried to include all of the relevant strategies used for these kind of games.