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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by SCG
actually a city only needs to bring in 2 gold for a marketplace to pay for its maintenance (2*150%=3). Also keep in mind that a marketplace means 50% more luxuries in the city, so will celebrate at a much lower lux rate. I notice both cities are at least size 7, meaning they probably were celebrated up in size? If so, the marketplaces accomplished their goals.
One other note, Green Meanie only has 4 luxuries (3 +1 from marketplace). with 1 less luxury, we would need an entertainer, or to move a worker from the forest to the sea to prevent disorder = we are getting 2 extra production towards caravans each turn. |
Actually, neither had a market when they both got to size eight. It was done with 80% Lux. See the 480 save. The markets came later.
Your point about the breakeven cost misses my point (which I did a poor job of stating.) Until you can get four gold as "base tax" (which will = six gold with a market) a market does not add to tax collections, net the maintenance. Anything less than four is spinning your wheels and has an opportunity cost in terms of what you could have built instead. That's why I say it is a waste; a waste of time, shields, and opportunity
Even now, Beggarsville generates only one gold from taxes. Far below breakeven. A Library would have brought in +4 beakers per turn. Your point in favor of Green Meanie is valid if you are willing to give up +7 beakers for +2 shields per turn. I lean to greater science and don't mind hiring entertainers.
Much later, when we finally get to Fundy, libraries will be unimportant, as we will run with zero science slider. At this time, our emphasis is on science so we can get to Fundy sooner.
Not saying you are wrong; just offering this for your consideration.
Monk
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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:26
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SCG,
--I left the sliders at 424, as I think we will need some cash to fund the huge white goods project ahead. The vans at sea will help, but the Americas are far away.
-- If Mean City gets a sewer right after Sir Ike completes, the food box will not be wasted. We can get size 13 without changing Lux.
--Manipulating the tech choices by swaping the Romans for Physics will allow us to select Explosives next. It won't be available without the swap. Demo or Metal will be available without a swap, however.
--Some selective tech gifting may be in order. The Germans are working on Sanitation and the Indians, Medicine, among others. Might be able to move then on to something we can swap for. Also, we have four more techs than our key civ, though I don't recall what the start was.
--I suggest we get a few key techs before Fundy causes our tech rate to fall. The SG's suggested going all the way to Spys first; if not that far, at least Explosives, Railroad, Corporation, IMHO.
--Our little Republic is about to take off. Have fun.
Monk
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Old n Slow
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Vienna, VA
Jun 2002
time: 00:26
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In my defense,
Noting the fine line between cheating, sleazing & good play I opted for the ‘whatever isn’t explicitly denied is permitted’ sense of rules -- most of the succession games I’ve seen don’t allow restarts, so that was OK by me. I’ve seen some examples of good play (Xinning, use of oedo years) which are now taken for granted. Other techniques, say black clicking, may be considered taboo by some, but might be OK by others. I opted to rehome the camels seeing no prohibition -- so with the adjusted rules, no more rehoming for this game for me. (We will, of course also ignore the comment about the “rehoming of the Salt caravan in SG’s post -- it must’ve been a typo.)
Regarding the switch of Libraries to Markets -- I had three choices -- a) leave the builds as libraries, knowing that upon their completion, they were going to be worthless (at zero science) for the while; b) switch to camels & lose 50% of the shields invested to date; or c) switch to markets, were they would produce under the high tax rates imposed & add thereafter. Would have switched them to camels if the shield boxes were only somewhat filled, but there was considerable investment to date at the time & I rushed a couple of them anyway to switch them over.
One can only wonder if the extra coins from those markets led to a rushed camel that brought in beakers greater than the beakers that would have been produced by those same investments in the form of libraries. 
Point of clarification -- we don’t want the Statue of Liberty (and if correct, does this also imply that we walk around the city that has it until the very end, or do we raze that self same city for their construction of a pagan idol?) 
Otherwise -- great work guys -- with good management of the tech tree will we be able to postpone Fundy until future tech?
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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Old n Slow
In my defense,
Noting the fine line between cheating, sleazing & good play I opted for the ‘whatever isn’t explicitly denied is permitted’ sense of rules -- most of the succession games I’ve seen don’t allow restarts, so that was OK by me. I’ve seen some examples of good play (Xinning, use of oedo years) which are now taken for granted. Other techniques, say black clicking, may be considered taboo by some, but might be OK by others. I opted to rehome the camels seeing no prohibition -- so with the adjusted rules, no more rehoming for this game for me. (We will, of course also ignore the comment about the “rehoming of the Salt caravan in SG’s post -- it must’ve been a typo.) |
You correctly point out the need for a set of rules for SXN Games.
I don't think that was a typo. Read it as, 'we just delivered a van that had been rehomed by someone previously,' and it is very, very clear.
quote:
Originally posted by Old n Slow
One can only wonder if the extra coins from those markets led to a rushed camel that brought in beakers greater than the beakers that would have been produced by those same investments in the form of libraries. |
I think you miss the concept of annual maintenance. Except for special situations, science will be the prominent slider, until Fundy. With science at 70%, those markets are a drain of 1g/turn. One wonders, what extra coins??
In the long run, we will need those markets. It is just a question of sequence and remembering the Big Picture while making decisions with long term effects. Science at zero was a special situation and should not have influenced the decision, IMHO.
"Future Tech"...that's a good one.
Monk
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SCG
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of less than all that I see
Jun 2000
time: 00:26
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again, we have lots of units on goto? and with as little as our island is, why??? last save also had units on goto as well from the SGs. make note of where units are headed towards and take off goto.
A couple of items will be finished this turn - harbor in SM, caravan in PoG, Harbor in BV might not be the best choice with aquaduct and library still needed, 3 other caravans in build and of course INC in MC with 3 vans en route. we probably could use a few more roads - beggarsville still only has the roads i built millinia ago and is using unroaded grasslands
we have 1 aquaduct and 1 uni, 2 libraries, 4 marketplaces, 3 harbors, and all cities have temples.
1260: get units off goto, tour of workers
1280: start silk towards romans, gems towards americans, minor worker adjustments, will need 132 gold instead of 3rd caravan and can get Ikes 1 turn earlier
1300: deliver 2 food and finish ikes, minor worker adjustments. take another glance at AI techs, only tech AI has that we don't is bridgebuilding and physics. germans have great library, so try a couple trades with the germans. see that they are hostile so speed along harbor in Maxwell's Hammer. they demand sanitation, but still icy... chemistry and theory of gravity get them to neutral, but out of techs... contact romans - gift invention to get to receptive, trade for physics (sanitation) and bridge building (horseback riding), enthusiastic so share maps  they tire of the conversation.
Romans now taking econ, Deutsch decide to play hookie from school, Babs experimenting with gunpowder..., spanish surveying bridgebuilding, Yanks exploring concept of higher education, indians dying to learn about medicine. contact indians, gift all techs to indians and share maps, they ignore concept of alliances and break off talks. beakers started at 1155 and end at 1050 with 2 tech gains, indians now not researching anything
1320: Isaac Newton's College in Mean City. americans discover university, indians start and abandon Ikes. everyone but spanish and Yanks researching gunpowder atm. indians drop from enthusiastic to hostile on the turn change... rush harbors in both beggarsville and maxwell's hammer. hope babs discover gunpowder soon to speed research as germans are back to hostile as well. of course germans revolted so they could talk to me so prob a ways away now. need 226 gold to finish sewer next turn, so raise taxes slightly, dampen science a little more for celebration in Mean City.
1340: rush sewer in Mean City, side effect is celebration in Pool of Grace, which is building a food caravan and needs an aquaduc, not enough gold for its aquaduct this turn. several more cities could celebrate with 40% lux... many cities need marketplaces too... start tickling caravans and rush harbor.
1360: Sewer System in Stickie Meanie, more finishing of caravans. Getting all of the AI to revolt from the rep govts, plus all the tech gifting, plus my lowering of science to start celebrations has caused for a general slowdown. only the AI i didn't contact has gained techs, and by trading with each other...
1400: Silk (d,231) stickie meanie to Antium, Gems (xd, 60, Beggarsville) Gems (xd, 105, Mean City) to Antium, finish bank in Mean City, Aquaduct in pool of grace and beggarsville, marketplace in stickie meanie. considered continuing on to Americans, but was still 14 turns away...
1420: Gunpowder choose Explosives (debated between that and Econ, but econ should get discovered by someone sometime hopefully). rush harbor in Green Meanie
1440: Coal (d,42) to Maxwell's Hammer from Heaven's gate (it replaced a route with Mean City???), rush marketplace in Maxwell's Hammer.
1460: Germans discover gunpowder - oops, meant to gift that to them so they could make another discovery...
notes to successor: Veii demands gold (Big Bad Bill), and a delivery from Green Meanie should be produce well, even undemanded. Bill will celebrate with a marketplace, but needs a harbor to grow - should be able to make that gold delivery really worth it  Stickie meanie is celebrating but needs the aquaduct. Pool of Grace will need sewer to grow past 12 next turn, Beggarsville also needs one to grow in 2 turns. Maxwell's hammer needs aquaduct to grow after next turn. Heaven's Gate also should be able to celebrate with just a marketplace, but needs the aquaduct to grow... Mean City should be able to grow to 22 a couple turns after hitting 21 (18 now, and when at 19 should not have any specialists to keep growing) as i saved the food supply. A complete lack of white goods did hamper initial growth as most cities only had temples. I would liked to have had more ships and more caravans, but there was only so much that could be done, so i put the emphasis on growth. Now that we are getting a few more harbors and marketplaces, libraries should be on the build list along with getting back to caravans (and lowering taxes )
things go slow when you get invited to dinner several nights in a row at a house without a computer
and of course the save
 Attachment: me_a1460.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).
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Bob_Smurf42
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North CA
Jan 2003
time: 21:26
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Been busy the last few days. Playing now, will post in a couple hours or so. I'm up in a couple games at CFC also.
Last edited by Bob_Smurf42 on 12-04-2003 at 08:20
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SCG
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of less than all that I see
Jun 2000
time: 00:26
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well, i'm glad i rushed the aquaduct in Sticky Meanie, otherwise it would still be size 8... looks like there was no rush-buying whatsoever. as constructive critisism, if you were not going to rush buy anything and not grow any of the cities (even mean city didn't celebrate properly or it would be size 23 in republic and would still be growing by celebration right now), why leave luxuries at 40%? you could have gotten more science that way. But celebration growth would have more than made up for the lower tax rate by having several size 20+ size cites that not only produce more trade (ergo science) but can have scientists.
As for growth, the reason the tax rate was so high was to facilitate the purchacing of desperately needed structures that allow growth (marketplace, aquaduct, harbor, sewer system and bank). Evey one of our cities can grow via celebration right now if we would rush-buy the structures they are building (well sticky meaning needs a sewer system instead of a bank) except that we have 2 cities supporting caravels - those should have been rehomed at Mean City before switching to Demo, that or discovering industrialization first so they become transports).
Another point. Maxwells Hammer is going to waste food if we don't rush-buy the aquaduct this turn, as it is already size 8, is producing 6 surplus food and only needs 10 to grow (food is tabulated before production). Did i mention that if you put 2 of mean city's taxmen to work in the fields it can celebrate as is, even after wasting its food supply? Once we are forced into fundy, we won't be able to use celebrations to grow cities and the larger our cities are at that point, the quicker we can pump out conquering military, either by production or by rush-buying.
Ok, constructive critisism placed on hold for now till i see the log
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:26
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Bob,
No 'constructive criticism' from me, since SCG told you all (see previous post).
...except one point: we are researching Conscription, which is no use at all at the moment, since we are at peace with anyone... It would have been a much better idea to choose Magnetism or Steam Engine.
Anyway, we have only 4 engineers at work and almost no cash to buy the required improvements if we wish to grow. Hence, lux are reduced to 20 and science to 0 during 2 turns. Then Research = 60, in order to acquire Conscription in 3 turns.
Main events:
1630: Romans discover Magnetism (kills the power of Lighthouse  ). And they say No to our offer ("too busy working on our great project: Adam..."). We have just started researching Steam... so be it!
1640: Ready for a small step of growth in smaller cities
(the bigger ones, size 12, need both Colloseums and Sewer Systems: too costly at the moment)
1660: SE discovered. We start researching RR.
Our glorious capital now size 24; smaller cities close to size 8; all cities size 12 have started building Colloseums.
Attachment: me_a1660.sav
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).
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06-04-2003 01:31
Moves tech rate to 5 turns.
Here is the save. I will post a log tomorrow, after I get some sleep.
The player after me gets a log up before I do??? That's no good.
on me
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