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Should we propose this deal
This poll is closed. |
| A) Propose it. |
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7 |
43.75% |
| B) Make changes. It is not ready. |
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7 |
43.75% |
| C) Do not propose it. |
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1 |
6.25% |
| D) Abstain |
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1 |
6.25% |
| Total: |
16 voters |
100% |
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Aro
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Ipanema
Jul 2002
time: 02:26
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I voted 1, because I'm completely for cooperation. Strong relationships mixed with strong defense... And when I say "strong defense", I mean it. Our UU is one of the best in the game.
I'm not interested in early wars, I don't want a golden age too soon. Tech trade can be a key in this game, and cooperation with a scientific Civ would help a lot.
For the records, I'm not näif... We have to be prepared to any kind of treachery. Later, in the game, we can transform the Persians in Ancient History, but for now... 
Btw, we should build some NM as soon as possible... 
Off-topic: Togas, the old and good avatar looks very nice... 
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Dominae
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By the numbers (sorry if I'm repeating things here):
Part I:
Bronze Working: 3
Alphabet: 5
CDG up 2 points.
Part II:
Writing: 8
Iron Working: 6
The Wheel: 4
Warrior Code: 3
Apolyton up 5 points.
Part III:
Map Making: 12
Ceremonial Burial: 2
Mysticism: 4
CDG up 6 points.
So, if everything goes through, we will be 3 tech points short. That's the first cause for concern. I suppose this is mitigated by the fact that we'll be up 3 points at the end of part II, but really that's no reason to give them free Beakers.
The second cause for concern comes from the exact techs we're researching. What is with the Map Making beeline? Are we so sure we're isolated? Until we know this, we should not commit to anything beyond Part II (and even then I'm uncomfortable with how big this deal is).
The third cause for concern is the no-whoring agreement. Note that we will not be able to sell 6 of CDG's techs, while they will only have this restriction on 3 of our techs. Plus all their techs are cheap, while ours are expensive. This may seem like a good idea, but note that to actually benefit from the no-whoring agreement we will need to find another civ that is either 1) researching a tech on par with our expensive ones, or 2) is willing to give away a lot of Gold for our expensive ones. CDG is clearly advantaged because they can pawn off their little techs for small sums and promises.
SO, I suggest we make the trade a lot less ambitious, and cut it off somewhere in the middle of Part II.
Dominae
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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Voted 1. Yes, we might be able to precise the whole treaty a small extra bit, but as it is, I would be happy to sign it. Time is of importance ATM, every wasted turns costs both teams wasted beakers.
Dominae, the no-whoring clause in fact favours us, since WE will be the ones with most valuable/tradable techs, not them - all of their techs are relatively cheap ones worth little once the game is under way... by keeping Writing and Map Making as our exclusives, we can easily trade for any extra-deal techs (Math e.g.) our other neighbours, should there be any, might have.
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Fried-Psitalon
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Not just another pretty face.
Dec 2002
time: 00:26
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How are we going to enforce or check whether or not they're whoring out our techs to other cultures? *WE* are the ones in the bottleneck here, not them. Is it entirely possible that they want us to stay north of them because we're not on an island, and they want to keep us bottled up before they smash us? Contact with others would be the last thing they wanted for us to have.
I'm sorry, but the more I read over that report from the Diplos, the more I smell a rat.
"All we have is desert and jungle, really."
"Nope, no one south of us, probably on an island."
"Hey, mind staying north of us please?"
"Sure, uh, as soon as you finish bronze and we finish alphabet we can trade other things. Give you bronze now? No, no...look! There's Elvis!"
Here's another thought: Which of our two cultures is likely to stay closer in techs to "the rest of the world" if we ARE on an island? The Ind/Comm or the Ind/Sci? Persia would be better off- and THEY might think "much better off."
Especially if they can see other land masses....wait, now that I think about it, how can they be so sure we're on an island? They haven't explored any more than we have, really...
This is kind of rambling, but the more I look at it, the more I smell a rat. I think we need to play our cards a bit closer to the vest in the near future, until they convince us of their good will.
Trip IS right- early war is probably not the best idea - but do THEY know that?
::starts sharpening his sword::
Just my thoughts. I don't want us to end up here....
I vote "2." If we must propose a treaty, let's propose one that keeps the credits towards us... and maybe rattling the saber a bit wouldn't be bad. *WE* can make their lives miserable a lot more than they can do the same to us.
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
How are we going to enforce or check whether or not they're whoring out our techs to other cultures? *WE* are the ones in the bottleneck here, not them. Is it entirely possible that they want us to stay north of them because we're not on an island, and they want to keep us bottled up before they smash us? Contact with others would be the last thing they wanted for us to have.
I'm sorry, but the more I read over that report from the Diplos, the more I smell a rat. |
Because we'll get contact with those team(s), and they will tell us about what CDG has been doing. At that point, we cut off the deal and unleash the gods of war. 
A simple process, really... 
quote:
"All we have is desert and jungle, really."
"Nope, no one south of us, probably on an island."
"Hey, mind staying north of us please?"
"Sure, uh, as soon as you finish bronze and we finish alphabet we can trade other things. Give you bronze now? No, no...look! There's Elvis!" |
They probably just wanted to negotiate a border. Like Vox and GS in the PTW DG. To this day, they still haven't crossed the border pre-set up by them near the beginning of the game. That could have been a plot, but it was just an attempt to deal with a situation and prevent friction from emerging. They may be trying to do the same.
quote:
Here's another thought: Which of our two cultures is likely to stay closer in techs to "the rest of the world" if we ARE on an island? The Ind/Comm or the Ind/Sci? Persia would be better off- and THEY might think "much better off."
Especially if they can see other land masses....wait, now that I think about it, how can they be so sure we're on an island? They haven't explored any more than we have, really...
This is kind of rambling, but the more I look at it, the more I smell a rat. I think we need to play our cards a bit closer to the vest in the near future, until they convince us of their good will.
Trip IS right- early war is probably not the best idea - but do THEY know that?
::starts sharpening his sword::
Just my thoughts. I don't want us to end up here....
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We'll be ready, even if they do attack. I've talked with them, and they're quite convinced that war is a bad idea. Mind you, this isn't fluffy diplomacy talk, but real talk of people who enjoy playing Civ. I don't think we have much to worry about.
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This agreement swings the Tech balances back and forth a bit; they do better at first (BW for Alphabet), then we do Better (Writing for IW, WC and The Wheel), and finally they get the better (Map Making for CB and Mysticism)
The agreement also gives them the advantage of having samller but more numerous Techs to trade; where we get larger but less in total, Techs to trade.
I think we come out ahead becaus of this last statement; our Tech's are more marketable than their's.
Plus if Persia agrees to this, they become docile towards us and less of a worry to us when we are building our Kingdom. They will still have to worry about what's South and West of them. I'd bet we go two more Civ's in those directions to deal with on this Continent.
As far a breaking up the agreent into seperate parts:
Yes, the third part favours them. But the second part favours us, it has to be balanced somehow. We put the third part in Persia's favor to preclude them from disavowing the agreement until it is finnished. it keeps them under our control and sight much more easily. If somethinkg should happen (something unforeseen by anyone), then having the deal back-loaded like this is in our favor if the deal should fall apart mid-way through or better.
There's no point for them to accept this agreement if we were to break it apart; it's the whole that binds us together in cooperation that interests them. They want no part of war with us and see this type of an agreement as a sign that war is also not on our minds. In listening to them speak with Trip (who did a very fine job, btw) I was able to discern that they have absolutely no intent to have any hostilities towards us. They genuinely want a mutually beneficial relationship. This agreement facilitates that end.
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Dominae
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I would rather we were not 3 tech points behind in the end, if we do go through with a 3-part deal. It makes us look desperate, and does not really help our already poor tech potential.
Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
I would rather we were not 3 tech points behind in the end, if we do go through with a 3-part deal. It makes us look desperate, and does not really help our already poor tech potential.
Dominae |
Hi Dom
I think that we would be finished with our tech's needed in the bargain before they finished theirs. I know it depends on the amount of gold available for research, but I'm thinking our team will have more than they will. We know that in this game tech is more valuable than gold pound for pound.
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Now that I think a little more about it, there is one thing I would like to change, and it has to do with the third part.
I would like it to read that the trade: Map Making for CB and Mysticism should be done only when both parties have the required techs. The Techs should be exchanged at the same time and not when the other has finished reasearching it.
In case we finish Map Making before they finnish their parts do we want to give them Map Making and take the chance that they somehow stick us without CB and Mysticism. Many things could happen that would cause this. They could go to war with another Civ and be unable to reasearch it at the time or they could use Map Making as a Peace offering to the Civ they are at war with, causing us to lose that Tech trade. I know this would be against the Agreement; but if their Civ is in real trouble they may do so anyways.
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:26
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I am undesided and feel that we have a problem. I feel that we have a leak somewhere. Who was it who proposed the Map Making route, Trip or CDG. If it was them, they very well could have assertaned that we could very likely be on an island. If it was Trip, then he gave them WAY TOO Much information with that proposal.
Either way, what is done is done for now. I'm not really too happy either, but I can go beyond that for now. What concerns us is what we will do from this point forward.
I haven't voted yet, but I'm leaning more towords option B for the moment. We don't need to lock ourselves in a deal that is that far in advance. A negotiator does not go to the table and let the other side know that they are at an disadvantage, and this deal seems to do that, from my point of view.
As long as we atleast come out fairly even, then that is what we should go for.
E_T
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17-03-2003 22:14
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