19-03-2003 10:54									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Togas 2) Our settlers shall not settle within the borders of the other nation, nor shall they settle in any place that is 5 tiles or less from the capital of the other party.

The race is on!

Everything else looks good. Too bad we have an unstable neighbor, though. Maybe we could make them an offer to "bring them to our side", so to speak? It sounds like they're not interested in peace, and they're just stalling to see where the Iron is (and therefore what their prospects are for war). We need to convince them somehow that we're their friends.


Dominae

	19-03-2003 11:04									#32
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1. I think borders should be defined by saying 'cultural borders'. They cast a wide net on meaning of territory.

3. They are not requiring an agreement that no units go south of Elucidia. Givan that there is nothing of note north of Apolyton, we should not include that. Let them stumble into those worthy of wearing WBetaHound's bones (sorry, BH). They gain nothing from it. We give up much by not moving down the west coast.

Also, I don't think they asked for that.

They also agreed not to impede Wbigfree's southern movement.

4. I believe they will want directions.

5? We should include the no settlement clause within 5 tiles of either capital. That was the sticker. Let them come back with an alternative.

	19-03-2003 11:04									#33
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 Let them start a war; see how far they get against NM's stacked on their Iron deposit!

I just want to comment on this thought, as it has been repeated a lot recently. In all likelihood, we will not be able to cover their Iron so easily. If their source is close to their capital, there is no way we're going to just walk in and expect it to be undefended. A Spearmen on a Hill (or worse, Mountain) simply laughs at our expensive Mercs. On the other hand, if their Iron source is far away, then they are much less of a threat than we take them to be, and it would be wasteful to blow our GA in crippling such a weak enemy. Simply covering the Iron with Warriors would be sufficient (forcing them to mount an Archer offensive, at great cost to them) until we get Swordsmen.

My point is that "simply covering their Iron" is going to be actually very difficult, if they're remotely competent Civ players. Mercs. are pillagers par excellence, but they're not so good at breaking through proper defenses (at least, not cost-effectively).


Dominae

	19-03-2003 11:05									#34
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The problem is we had a nearly 3 and a half hour chat to bring them on "ourside" and it went almost no where. After much haggling, Togas, Trip, NYE, and Bigfree1 were able to get them to concede to the points that Togas posted, however, instead of a radius, they wanted an actual line separating where we could settle, which is 5 tiles NE of their capitol (in a line running NE-SW) and neither of us could settle across it. Obviously that leaves us with crap, plus unexplored land.

But the point is, after 3 and a half hours of chatting to get them on "ourside" I think Togas speaks for many of us when he says he is tired of appeasing them.

	19-03-2003 11:05									#35
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They're too paranoid. I figured they would think of their own self-preservation during this chat, but instead they tried to squeeze as much as they could out of us. If they do not accept a deal we offer them, then I encourage that we cut off negotiations with them, and let them do their worst. I've been longing to settle things on the battlefield in a neutral fight. My tactics are much sharper than my words.

	19-03-2003 11:10									#36
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As I said in the chat, I would prefer that a war not be touched off while we are building a granery.

	19-03-2003 11:15									#37
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They gave themselves away when they said they were "caught between us and GCA, how would we feel". This obviously states there is no significant amount of land west or even perhaps south. Their paranoia es therefore somewhat justified.

The deal we have reached is somewhat "Appeasement" towards them, in essence, Trip, bigfree1 and myself do not agree to this way of dealing with CDG, however, I think that the deal, as it stands, is a way of preparing ourselves for the future. We appease today only to be in a better bargaining position in the future. We will be willing to forgive once their newbie-ness but we must make it explicitly clear we will not tolerate the same type of attitude in further negotiations and they will get Diplomatic Hardball from now on.

Some of us feel that CDG is going to change the deal tomorrow. We must not tolerate that. We (well, I was only in the chat for the last hour spent 3 hours negotiating with them, and will not go through that again just to get them on our side. They will accept or they will accept, we have been giving away far too much already considering the strenght of our civ and the strenght of our members to continue this further.

Let them agree or face the consequences.

We can always send them THE LETTER

	19-03-2003 11:15									#38
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither As I said in the chat, I would prefer that a war not be touched off while we are building a granery.

It's not desirable, but it's better than being forced into a border, having our scouting restricted for mysterious reasons, and other such shady activities.

	19-03-2003 11:25									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Trip It's not desirable, but it's better than being forced into a border, having our scouting restricted for mysterious reasons, and other such shady activities.

Aye, I don't think we should be afraid to take a hardline with them. We kind of act like we're afraid to step on their toes and we shouldn't be. Not to become overly cocky, but we do have an amazing team with a wide array of talent. I'm positive we could overcome any problem, including a very early war with them.

	19-03-2003 11:28									#40
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither As I said in the chat, I would prefer that a war not be touched off while we are building a granery.

I do not think that they are exactly prepared for war. They are likely in a garanery build as well; do you agree?

So we have plenty of time to deal with it. What does a War declaration from a Civ with no units to wage one mean? To me: squat. What do we benefit if they do not declare War? Not much; we will still protect our Settler's we will still build our defenses. CDG is not the only Civ on the planet and we must still prepare for the occasion of others meeting up with us as well. I say War doesn't cost us a dime right now. I say Peace on their terms costs us more.

	19-03-2003 11:32									#41
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They could change that Granary into a Barracks, call back all Warriors (if any besides Arnold), upgrade them to Immortals, then continue to pump out Immortals between Settlers. They could reasonably have 4 Immortals within the next 15-20 turns, which is certainly a force to be reckoned with.

	19-03-2003 11:37									#42
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The position of the Apolytonian Foreign Ministry shall be that we will explore all options for peace right now and try our damnedest to get these guys to ease off. Although it sickens me personally, I will agree to give a little now on a few non-major issues to get past this roadblock and get on with our development.

I'll explain a bit. My personal opinion on how to deal with these guys was to call them on their sh*t and end formal negotiations for a period of time (which was to be until we got contact with GCA). We would finish BW on our own and perhaps reconsider trading with them after we completed Writing.

HOWEVER, they made issue out of our southern movement, and this head-to-head debate was thenafter inevitable. 3+ hours invested, I'd like to see something come from all the hard work. Something to be proud of.

But if the people of Apolyton do not like the lopsided deal we're offering CDG to get them to back off, PLEASE say so and I will be more than happy to toss it and take our chances. Our pride may sting us in the end, but so may giving in to CDG's demands.

I would like to hear more opinions.

--Togas

	19-03-2003 11:40									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Trip They could change that Granary into a Barracks, call back all Warriors (if any besides Arnold), upgrade them to Immortals, then continue to pump out Immortals between Settlers. They could reasonably have 4 Immortals within the next 15-20 turns, which is certainly a force to be reckoned with.

But if they have to worry about the GCA, they wont send that many to us. We could deal with 1 or 2 easily by turn 20. I think this is moot anyways, because War would cost them too much, possibly the game.

They would have to delay their growth for a war; not very smart when they have GCA so close down South. I think the whole "War" thing is a bluff that they can't carry through with. It doesn't make sense for them. They'd be better off 'hunkering' down and expanding in the direction of GCA in order to claim as much land as possilbe while provide for the defense of this land. They have no land East or West to settle in, they are in a bind; but even more so if they choose to War with us or GCA.

	19-03-2003 11:44									#44
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My personal opinion is that overall, this treaty seems to be reasonable, except for the thing they are stuck on, which is the "no settler boundary" clause. Granted, it is only 30 turns, so that shouldn't matter in the scheme of things, but it is still a somewhat unneccesary condition that we shouldn't have to be subjected too. Afterall, we are not the ones that should be punished here. They are.

At this point in time though, I would be interested in sending our current proposal off to them and see what they come back with. If what they come back with is totally unreasonable, then screw it. It doesn't have to mean war, but if they feel threatened enough to attack us, then that is their perogative.

	19-03-2003 11:45									#45
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What do we give up?

I suppose we could tell them that we mean them no harm, and they are fretting needlessly, but we are unwilling to accept their dictates as to our movements outside their borders... and they are welcome to reap the whirlwind if they interfere with our movements.

What will most likely happen is a war that will see bigfree dead, us no closer to contact with GCA, and having to wait for the approach of their forces with every settler we send out. Either that, or we switch to military right now and commit suicide as far as the long term game goes.

There is a good reason why I am so patient with them in chat.

	19-03-2003 11:51									#46
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bigfree: They could easily keep peace with GCA. If we don't get contact with them, they'll never know about what's happening. CDG can easily keep peace with GCA by being nice for a little while. Bingo, only one front and they can unleash all they want on us.

Right now, my opinion of the treaty is that it's fine. It's a beautifully crafted document, and a lot of blood, sweat and tears went it to making it. My problem is that I know that CDG will demand more and more, and the document which we've spent so much time working on to prevent this war will have been a waste. They've been decieving us, and, worse, have been wasting our time. I don't appreciate that at all, and I intend to show them that after they offer unacceptable terms to us tomorrow.

	19-03-2003 11:54									#47
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nye, why do you think that they would commit suicide in the same way you say we would be doing if we 'switched' to war mode?

If I felt they had the ability to wage a war, I would be right with you on this. I frankly don't believe that they do. I believe that they know they would be commiting suicide if they declared war.

Why do you give little credit to BigFree the Warrior; he shall provide a glorious victory to any attacks from Arnold, the only unit capable of doing harm. Don't we also have a defense bonus because of terrain? Doesn't CDG have a Barbarian on the loose inside their border's?

All of these things, plus their tone in the chat, combine to say that they will not declare War; and are only bluffing/lying, again. This is my take based on the evidence.

	19-03-2003 12:02									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Right now, my opinion of the treaty is that it's fine. It's a beautifully crafted document, and a lot of blood, sweat and tears went it to making it. My problem is that I know that CDG will demand more and more, and the document which we've spent so much time working on to prevent this war will have been a waste. They've been decieving us, and, worse, have been wasting our time. I don't appreciate that at all, and I intend to show them that after they offer unacceptable terms to us tomorrow.

I agree that a lot of time was put into it. I, Togas and MasterZen put in a lot of time on proposals that were never sent. But if we were to agree to something and use an agrumnet "we spent a lot of time on this" as a reason to accept it, your reasoning is flawed. I appreciate your counter arguments, they have merit, but I don't feel that they outweigh the overwhelming possibility that CDG is 100% FOS! I truly believe that they are bluffing and have nothing to back it up with at this time. Maybe latter they will; but we'll be prepared by then.

	19-03-2003 12:03									#49
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 nye, why do you think that they would commit suicide in the same way you say we would be doing if we 'switched' to war mode?

Because they have no clue what is involved in a game like this.

They are playing everything very short term. They do not care what happens in 1000 AD. They are in the now, entirely. They have no idea what happens to them if they bog in a war at this point. They don't care.

They have no concept that they make pretence of being friends, but that because of the last few days, as soon as our forces are in order, they are gone from the map. I would expect nothing less of Apolyton after the crap these guys have thrown up. They can not be trusted for any long term. They have proved that it will be us or them in the mid game. We shall choose that it be them, but only when we are fully prepared. We should not tip that resolve a moment sooner then is required for them to observe their first cities going *poof* to the onslaught.

In the meantime, peaceful relations benefit us a great deal. I have examined various games of MP where experienced players have engaged those... less experienced. My conclusion is that if we give Dominae 50 turns to build unmolested, they will not stand a flea's ass chance in a dust storm of remaining alive.

	19-03-2003 12:09									#50
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither In the meantime, peaceful relations benefit us a great deal. I have examined various games of MP where experienced players have engaged those... less experienced. My conclusion is that if we give Dominae 50 turns to build unmolested, they will not stand a flea's ass chance in a dust storm of remaining alive.

I will cede to your greater knowledge here; knowing that we can take them at a latter date is a nominal consulation that will have to do.

Though I'd still like to tell them to "(F)uck Off!"; we'll move our unit anywhere we damn well please!

	19-03-2003 12:10									#51
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 I agree that a lot of time was put into it. I, Togas and MasterZen put in a lot of time on proposals that were never sent. But if we were to agree to something and use an agrumnet "we spent a lot of time on this" as a reason to accept it, your reasoning is flawed. I appreciate your counter arguments, they have merit, but I don't feel that they outweigh the overwhelming possibility that CDG is 100% FOS! I truly believe that they are bluffing and have nothing to back it up with at this time. Maybe latter they will; but we'll be prepared by then.

No, I'm not using the time as a reason to enact it. The time spent was merely a side-effect of all the work we had to put in and the quality of what we accomplished. The problem is that I see them tearing that apart to do what they see as putting themselves ahead. I knew they weren't experienced, but this is more than I would have figured would happen...

	19-03-2003 12:15									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Trip No, I'm not using the time as a reason to enact it. The time spent was merely a side-effect of all the work we had to put in and the quality of what we accomplished. The problem is that I see them tearing that apart to do what they see as putting themselves ahead. I knew they weren't experienced, but this is more than I would have figured would happen...

Ok, sorry for misunderstanding you there.

I'm going to go along with the rest of the "Can't we have Peace?" crowd for a bit; though I'd like you to include future plans to upgrade BigFree the Warrior to Bigfree the Swordsman; so that he can shove a sharp Iron thingy up the South side of a Elucidian going North!

	19-03-2003 12:20									#53
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It really depends on how they respond to our proposal. I won't bet on anything until I see it. I gave them one last chance to save themselves, but they're laughing in my face, which is unacceptable. I don't see them changing their tune now. Even during the chat, they made it clear they wanted a line, and not a radius. Which we all understand is quite unacceptable.

	19-03-2003 12:27									#54
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Actually, a line would be fine by me... for 30 turns.

We need to be in a position to reject any permanance of that when it expires though.

	19-03-2003 12:30									#55
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Even if we accept a line, then what? What would they ask for next? It's just a matter of guessing what they would want. I will agree with you and say over the next 30 turns a line is pretty insignificant (what will they do, fill the entire border with worthless cities?), but I will remain adamant that we need a city on the bend of the ocean to stop them ASAP. They can still place a city where it will reach beyond the bend and make planning our cities very difficult in addition to giving them a possible link to the east. A very imporant issue in my mind, and one we need to be able to address if we're going to agree to a line.

	19-03-2003 12:35									#56
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A worthless city in the jungle? Welcome them to it.

Meanwhile, we will place 5 cities that can produce, now.

Their jungle bunnies will make nice additions to the empire, don't you think?

	19-03-2003 12:40									#57
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All in time, my good friend, all in time...

	19-03-2003 12:42									#58
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Their jungle bunnies will make nice additions to the empire, don't you think?

While I find this is funny in this context; other's may not think so.

	19-03-2003 13:27									#59
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I just wanted to add this quote from the chat to this thread because it shows that CDG has NO land West of its Capitol. I think MasterZen already pointed out another quote that alludes to the same thing. I think that these two provide 'proof' that they are indeed feeling a 'pinch' or a 'noose' as kentonio put it!

quote: [21:54] [Kentonio> The problem is my friend, one on one neither of us can win this war right now as I am sure you know. Or at least neither of us can win and not be immediatley conquered by GC. If you join forces with GC however you could wipe us out in record time. If WE joined forces with GC the situation is different as it would involve us allowing their troops through our territory to reach you which is hardly likely.

	19-03-2003 14:03									#60
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I insist we deploy THE LETTER

any objections at making it public here?

Last edited by Master Zen on 19-03-2003 at 14:15