20-03-2003 01:08									#91
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Talking with vondrack and bigfree1 and an important thing has come up:

There is the possibility that CDG will try and block our warrior's movement south, hence the reason for the 2 turn delay.

I saw we either
1) establish a clause whereby our warrior's movement south will not be impeded after the 2 turns

or

2) we ask them directly why they want the delay, and outflank them at the negotiation table. This is obviously the more aggressive thing to do on our part.

-MZ

	20-03-2003 01:12									#92
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They've already stated they want the 2 turn delay because they don't yet have contact with GCA. It may be true, it may not be true, we don't know. You know what confronting them about something did last time. It doesn't help us either way. It would be like throwing away the 4 hours last night. We need to finish this agreement and plan for the future. That's the best resolution to this situation.

	20-03-2003 01:16									#93
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Okay, before we go marching off to war here, let's consider the worst-case scenario:

They have a Warrior 2-3 tiles away from our capital. Our capital garrisoned by 1 Warrior. They march next to our capital before we have a chance to build another unit, they attack. Maybe they lose? Oh well, reload game, attack again. They win. Game over.

Any other questions?

	20-03-2003 01:34									#94
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They don't know we have 1 warrior only, I doubt they'll attack. It's too much of a gamble.

	20-03-2003 01:37									#95
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They could attack and see if they win, and if they do, then they'll know that we only have one Warrior. If they lose, then they could just replay the turn or not attack. Not something we'd like to think about, but they could do it, right? Can we risk our existence on them not doing that?

	20-03-2003 01:37									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Trip They march next to our capital before we have a chance to build another unit, they attack. Maybe they lose? Oh well, reload game, attack again. They win. Game over.

Does this game not have the random seed preserved?

	20-03-2003 01:39									#97
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser Does this game not have the random seed preserved?

Yes, but if you do things in a different order, you can change the results. Also, they could simply attack, and if they don't win, just play it again without attacking. When you're dealing with 1 unit on one side VS one unit on another, it's simply too easy to do this sort of thing, and we have to take that into account.

	20-03-2003 01:42									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Trip They have a Warrior 2-3 tiles away from our capital. Our capital garrisoned by 1 Warrior. They march next to our capital before we have a chance to build another unit, they attack. Maybe they lose? Oh well, reload game, attack again. They win. Game over.

As Master Zen said, I doubt they would attack.

Let's say they do (worst-case). Then we can always switch production to a unit. They could try to "stall" negotiations to make sure we do not get our unit in time, so we should be careful about that if one of their units approaches our borders.

And if they're not above cheating by replaying their turn, there is not much we can do. There is no point in doubling our defenses to safeguard against cheaters. If one of their Warriors defeats our Merc. defender and we lose the game, we call them "lucky" and go on with our lives. I'm simply not prepared to put 2 Mercs. in our capital to "prevent" them from cheating.


Dominae

	20-03-2003 01:55									#99
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I'm with you Domiae!

	20-03-2003 02:44									#100
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I have reviewed the discussions in this thread and find the following statements to be very persuasive towards my decision:

quote: NotYouEither A worthless city in the jungle? Welcome them to it. Meanwhile, we will place 5 cities that can produce, now. Their jungle bunnies will make nice additions to the empire, don't you think? My conclusion is that if we give Dominae 50 turns to build unmolested, they will not stand a flea's ass chance in a dust storm of remaining alive Fried-Psitalon when you're dealing with warmongering amateurs, you can hold a twenty-eight-inch machete in front of the warmonger's fork, and the warmonger will still think the time has come for him to attack you. Diplomacy is only a huge aspect of the game if both sides are skilled in the art of diplomacy....which they have not, at the moment, demonstrated any particular gift for. You can't talk if the other guy isn't listening. Let's bear in mind the Civ choices in this game- if you pick Persia, you ARE out for an early war. Otherwise they'd pick the Ottomans. We dropped the ball in confronting them so aggressively and so early, true- would've been much better to direct them towards India- but we should probably accept that they ARE planning hostile actions. I would agree to "give in" to calm them down, but only if the intent is to crush them ASAP. Diplomacy as I understand it relies on predictability, and Persia is a loose cannon Trip If they do, they have a city that is useless in the short-term, and will make expansion east into the peninsula very very difficult for them, even if they DO get a city down I think us sucking our pride up one last time may prove very useful for us as well as them... MasterZen Remember guys, that paranoia is guiding CDG's foreign policy. Psycologically we MUST use this against them.

I am dissapointed in myself for inviting them into this confrontation. Ideally, we should have simply ignored contact with them for at turn or two while we got closer to GCA and possibly let GCA find us. Instead we invited them into a dialogue where they were able to threaten us into a very bad situation.

I fully agree that war right now would hurt us in the long term even if we win. I also believe that in the short term our MoI people are far more talented than theirs, and that we will grow in potential power much faster than they will.

Given that they also have to also defend their southern border against a nation who has an early extra city, a nation who they think will team up with us against them, and given their close proximity to GCA and GCA having no Mercs ... where is there military going to be focused? Especially if we actually pull off a Non-Agg with them.

My decision is that we're going to suck it up on this deal. I, personally, will suck up my pride if I have to, to get this passed. We'll moap and plead and reluctantly give in, and get to work on our long term ambition to beat the sh*t out of this arrogant mod squad.

We'll start with the radiuses. If that fails, we'll go line. But in 30 turns when this runs out, we ARE NOT going to renew any of these terms. We are going to throw this piece of garbage deal into the trash and start from a negotiation position of strength which they, most likely, will not recognize.

We will teach them through patience and a strong rational stance that we are not going to give in again. And we will stand our ground as long as we have to so long as we continue to have the position of strength.

Note: We will add in the phrase that forbids them to block the access of BigFree to GCA.

--Togas

	20-03-2003 02:55									#101
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I agree with dominae, we have not to protect our game from cheaters; but we have to take care of bad luck. If the chances that a warrior defeats a fortified NM are 5% or lower, it is an acceptable risk, but if the chances are 25% our capital must have a stronger garrison (change the figures if you desagree).

	20-03-2003 03:01									#102
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Well said Togas. Anyone doubt the abilities of our Foreign Minister??? :???: I thought not!

Also Trip, if they are foolish enough to move a warrior inside our borders we can always try attacking them, if we lose we play again and wait for the next turn. We would have 2 or 3 chances: 1) the moment they step into our border and if we have a road, our warrior can attack that turn. 2) the moment they move aside our capital 3) the turn in which they attack. Those are not good odds for THEM, and I don't think they'll do it.

Changing the subject, as I have stated in other threads we are going into negotiation knowing we will accpet their terms in the end, but doing everything possible that they accept our deal instead.

BTW, bigfree1's latest draft proposal included a clause which prevents them from blocking our warrior's path south.

	20-03-2003 03:11									#103
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Well... I have been late to the party and missed the gigantic chat last night. Not being directly involved, I may be less pissed off by what CDG said or did... so, here is how I see things:

1) CDG behaves strangely, we should not rely on logic too much when it comes to how they are likely to react/respond. For them, there is lot less in stake - CDG is a name hardly to be matched against Apolyton.

2) they pretty much have all the trump cards in their hands - with just 2 warriors, we would be in a serious disadvantage if war breaks out. Unfortunately, they can find out pretty easily how weak we are (powergraph).

3) the situation is going to change very soon - once we have our granary built (and the shields invested in its construction safe), we build few more units and be MUCH safer.

4) the most critical asset from our point of view is: TIME. Even few more turns will rapidly shift the balance in our favour (or, more precisely - will make our chances even).

5) let's use whatever we have to buy us some time; forget things like pride, bluff, being pissed off, and such. Taking huge risks mere 20 turns into the game is something we can't afford. And the risks WOULD be huge - just imagine they kill Wbigfree with Arnold and start messing around Apolyton with Sylvester (that's the other warrior of theirs, supposedly close to our capital). We would either have to scrap the granary for a sucking warrior, losing so many shields, or just sit there in Apolyton, waiting for whether Sylvester chooses to chase our worker, attack our city, or pillage our improvements... Nope, thank you.

Yes, they may be bluffing. But we have little to gain and a lot to lose. Let's forget our pride and agree to what they want... in 10 turns, we may and hopefully will have more of a punch to support our stance. THEN we may start talking harsh.

P.S.: just before submitting my post, which I've been writing with breaks for more than an hour, I noticed Togas' excellent post. I agree with every single word. I am very glad our FAM realizes that what we did during the negotiations with CDG was less then fortunate and I applaud his ability to realize what the best strategy is now.

	20-03-2003 03:16									#104
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One question, how is the random seed set up? Can someon simply keep attacking until they win?

Regarding the conversation: Kentonio flat out admitted he was using trickery from us from the get-go. Given that fact, being able to trust CDG is a moot question. Our best hope is to engage in small acts to try to show we our trustworthy. Dont let them blackmail us into unduly harming our exploration. A 2 turn wait is OK with me. Requiring us not to move South after then is not. I am beginning to feel we need to explore around their territory if possible after meeting CG to see possible iron locations. If doing it ourselves is too risky for diplo reasons, CG might be able to help us there once one of us gets MM.

	20-03-2003 03:21									#105
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan One question, how is the random seed set up? Can someon simply keep attacking until they win?

That's two questions.

'Preserved Random Seed' means that a certain number of numbers is predetermined. If you play the turn, fight, lose, re-load and do it all over again, you'll get the same results. BUT - if you do something else requiring a random number from the list (say - move into a goodie hut), you can then attack with a possibly different outcome.

Apart from this, you can always decide NOT to attack after you've seen one result.

	20-03-2003 03:46									#106
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And the odds are against them. Mathematically, if we attack them 2 squares away, 1 square away and finally they attack us, the odds of them winning are roughly 1/6 or 1/4 if we attack when they are besides us.

Last edited by Master Zen on 20-03-2003 at 04:07

	20-03-2003 04:58									#107
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Dumb comments & questions (maybe outdated and off-topic too):

I don't agree with that deal entirely... I don't know why our warrior can't move 2 turns. I mean, I know what they want, but why should we agree on that?
Well, I missed something, for sure... Sometimes is difficult to track all info.

	20-03-2003 04:59									#108
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Here's where I envison the 'line' should be; it is equal distances from our Capitols. I think this is what they had in mind.

	20-03-2003 05:00									#109
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We are chatting in the #apolytonISDG room about the borders.

The red border is the initial proposal of the no settlement line which is 5 tiles from their borders. We are thinking of proposing a no settlement line 5 tiles from their capital. Anyway, this is for reference.






EDIT: DOH. Crossposted with bigfree

	20-03-2003 05:03									#110
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And the third and final map.

Note: There is 8 tiles between our cultural borders, and 12 tiles between our capital cities.

	20-03-2003 05:14									#111
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Here's one that leaves out our info, but lables the 'line' clearly.

	20-03-2003 06:34									#112
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And here is yet another image to show what CDG's problem could possibly be and why they are feeling so pressured. Keep in mind this map is pure speculation.





The red line represents the proposed border. But this basically puts it into a picture for those of us who can't figure out why CDG is lashing out and wanting such a border deal.

We can infer that they probably are stuck on a small inlet of land. Anyways, only time will tell if this theory is true.

	20-03-2003 06:35									#113
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Using Trip's map, I'm happy with any agreement that allows us to put cities all the way up the the southern edge of the midline border (6 tiles from either of our capitals).


Dominae

	20-03-2003 06:37									#114
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WhiteBandit, I doubt there is that much land to our immediate West, but otherwise your pic is an accurate description of the geo-political situation.


Dominae

	20-03-2003 06:37									#115
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That's a pretty cool map WB.

I don't think there's that much off to the west, but I feel that everything else is pretty accurate compared to my guesses, though the peninsula may be bigger.

Cross-post with Dominae.

	20-03-2003 06:41									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Using Trip's map, I'm happy with any agreement that allows us to put cities all the way up the the southern edge of the midline border (6 tiles from either of our capitals). Dominae

It will actually be five tiles only, with a 2-tile "no-settle zone" in the middle - see the FA: Correspondence thread. I do not think that 5 or 6 makes any difference, as the treaty is valid for 30 turns only. And IIRC, 30 turns is 5 settlers at most... AFAIK, none of the proposed "Tier 1" city sites fall into the future "no-settle zone".

	20-03-2003 06:52									#117
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Updated map of the proposal sent (and that will be accepted, I hope):

"Greenish" shaded is our restricted lands. "Blueish" is theirs. The "whitish" area in between is a neutral territory which anyone may build in.

Note that according to this proposal, CDG will be able to build a city on or adjacent to any of the luxuries in or near the neutral zone, and will also be able to build a city adjacent to both the hill and the mountain in the middle of the jungle. We cannot reach any of their restricted luxuries, etc. using one of our cities.

	20-03-2003 07:07									#118
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OK - I will be the first to mention it......

Whitebandits map looks like Elvis with a bad hair day.

I want to vote the name of our continent to be "Graceland"





And on a more serious note. This deal is fine. With an expiry time of 30 turns, any border agreement is moot anyway. Just let them have this moral victory. It means nothing.

	20-03-2003 08:26									#119
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This agreement should not interfere with any of our economic plans, at least for the next 30 turns. Looks fine from the Interior's perspective.


Dominae

	20-03-2003 08:42									#120
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Looks like Elvis??? what have you been smoking WB??

Actually it is a fairly accurate representation of how our continent might be if we take into account the "hints" that Kentonio has inadvertently given us. However, I doubt there's that much landmass to the west, I just think that it's of much better quality (i.e. no jungle)