19-03-2003 14:19									#61
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Go ahead, Master Zen. A bit late for now, but there is some merit in it.

As for the rest. I have just reviewed the log, and I feel that the hawks may be premature. Although, I will admit to being swept up. For sure we cannot count on a peaceful REX, unless we are fools.

However, I feel very hopeful that peace can be arrived at, and that Poly will not have to 'appease'. Yes, they ask for 2 turns head start towards GCA. No biggie.

Re the borders, simply offer a radius of no settlement, like we were going to poach near Elucidias anyways. If they insist on the line, make it run NW to SE and state that that will not be renewed in 30 turns without heavy revision due to circumstances at that time.

We lose nothing, but 2 turns of southward movement. We gain peace, and time. Time for the benefits of the granery we have invested heavily in to bear fruit.

	19-03-2003 14:42									#62
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NYE: I also wish for peace. I do not wan't war while we are not ready. I also do not think CDG want's war either since it is not conceivable that they are any more prepared than we are.

I am afraid, however, that CDG will try and change the deal. I do not think we should accept anything related to a border agreement . We have wisely proposed a radius agreement which IMO is better. If they do not accept it, I feel we should not appease them one bit about this. True, 30 turns is not much but it will give a wrong signal that we are not playing Hardball as we should.

C'mon people, we're Apolyton! We're the BEST goddarn civ site in the world and we're the best civ players too. We've got wonderful people on the team, let's show this!

If they accept this deal, peace will be secured. If they don't... we must negotiate further but we must not give in any more than we already have. Our appeasment has been within our best interests, but reputation-wise it would not be intelligent to continue with this attitude.

-MZ

	19-03-2003 14:44									#63
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just for posterity, and perhaps we might end up using it later on (hopefully not) here's THE LETTER

at least if we don't use it it'll be good for some laughs

-------------------

Greetings from Apolytonia

During the last couple of hours, our two nations have seen themselves involved in a discussion which has hampered, instead of reinforced, the nurturing of a strong relationship between Elucidium and APolytonia. Feelings of discord and betrayal have been publically expressed going so far as to reach the level of threats being made among us. This is under no measure something which will serve to better the possibility of long-term friendship.

Needless to say, we feel such sentiments of distrust have been the result of your nation's failure to disclose knowledge of the existance of another civilization near your own borders, we are of course referring to the Gamecatchers alliance, as well as your not entirely truthful description of the terrain around you. Your insistance that we remove our southernmost Warrior, at which we were willing to do at first, only serves to reinforce our feeling of suspicion that Elucidia is hiding information from us, all the while appearing eager to establish stronger ties.

We urge you to reconsider your current approach in your dealings with Apolytonia in the future. We are a nation which seeks to establish relationships based on mutual benefit with its neighbors. This can only be achieved through honesty and straightforwardness. We understand that perhaps you feel these values are to be taken lightly when dealing with other civilizations but we regret that such an attitute will not go far with us and probably won't with most other civilizations either. We are willing to give Elucidia a chance to rectifiy this attitude as we desire nothing but the best relationship with our neighbors. But be advised that while Apolytonia can be the most trustworthy and reliable of friends, it can also be the most terrible and ruthless of enemies.

We eagerly await your reply

------------------------------



-MZ

	19-03-2003 14:45									#64
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I encourage to do all that is reasonable to avoid war. As has been stated, we're not ready. However, if they are to be so foolish as to bring down such a fate upon themselves, then so be it. We've been more than amiable, and our goodwill is about to run out.

	19-03-2003 16:32									#65
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I agree with Trip's last post - we should certainly aim to sooth their frantic little minds and if that involves a less than ideal agreement now, then we should be prepared for that, so long as it doesn't give them more than a paper advantage. Any bonus to them is unlikely to be used to any effect anyway; they have shown this in their lack of consideration for successful diplomacy. But we must not let anything further be taken from us if they believe they can screw us around.

However, we turned a potential bargaining tool into what is nearly a war. We mustn't forget that none of this would have likely happened had we not jumped into confrontation with CDG as we did, without a consensus decision on what to do having been reached.

Let us learn, and thus in the future remember that not all of our opponents will be as experienced as us, nor as good-willing, and we need to be sure in future that we agree on what our diplomatic path will be BEFORE it is taken.

	19-03-2003 17:44									#66
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Mr.Pres- with all due respect, when you're dealing with warmongering amateurs, you can hold a twenty-eight-inch machete in front of the warmonger's fork, and the warmonger will still think the time has come for him to attack you. *THAT* is something my internet-MP experience tells me is Bible.

Persia wants a fight. The sooner we get "Garrison Mercs" down onto Persian hills, the better.

Can we get an estimate on the time needed to get a barracks and two vet NMs built in City 2? Add in "Transit time" to their capital and I would think that agreeing to anything lasting that long would be fine so they don't stick their meddling amateur noses in our business any sooner.

Then, frankly, with diplomats that obnoxious, I think we should review Diplomacy by swordpoint. :P

	19-03-2003 22:26									#67
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OK, I think you will be interested in reading this log - I used an opportunity and had a short conversation with GhengisFarb, who is supposed to be CDG's ambassador to our team. There is little really important info there, but you will still find it interesting to read, I believe:

quote: Session Start: Wed Mar 19 16:54:05 2003 Session Ident: GhengisFarb vondrack: Hello! GhengisFarb: Hello GhengisFarb: Ok, what happened in the APoly/CDG chat? vondrack: ah.... vondrack: don't mention it... vondrack: that was... vondrack: just horrible vondrack: things went wrong way from the very beginning vondrack: quite unnecessarily, I'd say vondrack: the situation now is vondrack: that you (CDG) are sort of... hm, not sort of - plain threatening us vondrack: with war, if we continue exploring southwards vondrack: towards GCA GhengisFarb: WHat happened in the chat vondrack: hmmm... nothing special... GhengisFarb: CDG won't tell me anything. vondrack: with the exception vondrack: WHAT? vondrack: ??????? vondrack: how is that possible, for God's sake? vondrack: you are supposed to be the ambassador to Apolyton, no? GhengisFarb: They won't. They said nothing interesting happened but that they didn't want to deal with the those particualar Apoly people vondrack: perhaps you might wish to read the log? GhengisFarb: Yep, but nobody ambassaotes through me. vondrack: it was like this: GhengisFarb: That would be nice. vondrack: first (upon the initial contact), Togas (FAM) and bigfree1 (amb.) had a chat with your people vondrack: no log, as it was held at CDG (no logging possible there) vondrack: tech trades were discussed vondrack: CDG kept asking for Alphabet for Bronze Working vondrack: as we are well into BW ourselves (we told them how much - the info was genuine) vondrack: and we seriously doubted CDG was really researching Alphabet (as it makes little sense for Persia) vondrack: we were reluctant to go for such a deal vondrack: looked lopsided to us GhengisFarb: I will tell you that thier research paths make no sense to me. vondrack: this initial contact ended in "cold bye bye & see you sometimes" vondrack: yeah, they make no sense in any aspect... vondrack: nm vondrack: on with the story vondrack: Trip, who was present during that initial chat vondrack: and had some friendly relations with some of the CDG guys vondrack: continued the chat unofficially vondrack: tossing ideas right and left vondrack: he made it clear he was acting unofficially vondrack: we do have a log of that vondrack: (he was making screenshots) vondrack: the idea that seemed worth dicusssing vondrack: was like this: vondrack: Alphabet for BW immediately vondrack: IW+Wheel+something for Writing vondrack: damn, can't recall what that something was vondrack: just a sec vondrack: ah, Warrior Code vondrack: so IW+WC+Wheel for Writing vondrack: and Part III vondrack: CB+Myst for Map Making vondrack: a mamooth project vondrack: CDG expressed interest in a deal like that vondrack: Trip brought it to Poly and posted for discussion vondrack: needless to say that many jumped at him vondrack: for doing that vondrack: personally, I thought what he did was perfectly fine vondrack: it was unofficial GhengisFarb: Well, that's Trip. I suggested they research Ironworking first but that flat out refused to vondrack: there was a HEAVY discussion about the proposal in our forum vondrack: in the end vondrack: we were ready to send out a proposal vondrack: that would be: vondrack: Part I: BW for Alpha immediately vondrack: Part II: IW+Wheel for Writing vondrack: that looked simple enough and fair enough

Then the Poly IRC server got rebooted and our chat ended up abruptly. I hope to be able to talk to GF later today again. Hope nobody minds me providing him with the log we have in our forum?

Maybe we should talk to GF instead of the other CDG freaks. He may be able to get them more in line... What do you think?

	19-03-2003 22:58									#68
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It also may be a ploy to try to get us to cough up more information. CDG knows the situation is rough, and they know GF is our only CDG contact, and we will naturally try to go to him for diplomacy from now on. He could be playing our fiddle worse than the rest of CDG is. We have to be careful.

	19-03-2003 23:03									#69
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quote: those particualar Apoly people

???

NYE, particualar ?

	19-03-2003 23:04									#70
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CDG seem like a really messed up team.

Do they have any idea what they're doing?

	19-03-2003 23:11									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Trip It also may be a ploy to try to get us to cough up more information. CDG knows the situation is rough, and they know GF is our only CDG contact, and we will naturally try to go to him for diplomacy from now on. He could be playing our fiddle worse than the rest of CDG is. We have to be careful.

That's possible, yes. That's also why I disclosed no more information other than what had already been said (or things that were no longer relevant - like the deal proposal we never sent). But I do not believe we have anything to lose, if we try GF as our last resort.

	19-03-2003 23:12									#72
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet CDG seem like a really messed up team. Do they have any idea what they're doing?

No, probably not. But we have to use that to our advantage...
If we get them to agree to something here and now, they'll think they have the diplomatic upper-hand on us, and they'll think this will be the norm. In 30 turns when we have more powerful cities, more NMs and contact with GCA.

Let us come to agreement here, and bide our time. When the time comes, we will be able to give them a piece of their own medicine.

	19-03-2003 23:13									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Mr.Pres- with all due respect, when you're dealing with warmongering amateurs, you can hold a twenty-eight-inch machete in front of the warmonger's fork, and the warmonger will still think the time has come for him to attack you. *THAT* is something my internet-MP experience tells me is Bible.

I completely agree with this.

	19-03-2003 23:16									#74
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet CDG seem like a really messed up team. Do they have any idea what they're doing?

They do, although they are not acting rationaly about it. They do not understand the seriousness about the situation.

We did go a little too far by confronting them directly. Presonally I would have liked to catch them in a lie while negotiationg with GCA. It would have been much more diplomatic and it would have served to increase suspicion between GCA and CDG which would serve in our favor.

If you look closely at the deal, their insistance our warrior remain immobile for 2 turns serves only one purpose: they do have contact with GCA and are right now telling them what to say to us, for example, saying that they had no contact beforehand, etc. in other words, erasing all evidence of their lies towards us.

If this is indeed happening, then GCA will hopefully also realize that CGA can't be trusted and will gravitate towards us. Thus, even though the deal seems like "appeasement" it has certain long-term benefits which I think aid us, more than hamper us.

Let's just hope they agree to the radius deal and it'll be "peace for our time"

	19-03-2003 23:29									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Mr.Pres- with all due respect, when you're dealing with warmongering amateurs, you can hold a twenty-eight-inch machete in front of the warmonger's fork, and the warmonger will still think the time has come for him to attack you. *THAT* is something my internet-MP experience tells me is Bible.

Calm down F-P, calm down!

This is a demo game, not a regular MP game. Diplomacy is a HUGE aspect of this game, in fact, it is what separates this from any normal MP and we wouldn't be having half as much fun if this weren't the case.

Keep your warmongering instincts until we really need tham, and trust me, we will.

	19-03-2003 23:29									#76
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What if GF was instructed to say those things to you so we'll be more open in negotiating with him, or for any other reason? What he said about the other CDG members sounds very unreasonable, and IMHO it's just as likely that he's lying and they are trying to make us think they're divided or very angry or whatever.

EDIT: crosspost

	19-03-2003 23:31									#77
	My Suggested Approach to the Situation Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Okay, we already know that they're lying, tried to decieve us, and are doing whatever they can to "protect their own interests," all while ignoring the long-term situation by giving us a hard time. I think this pattern will no doubt continue during our next meeting, and I've already made this belief apparent. They've had time to organize and trump up a new set of demands.

We should know this and have already accepted that they will do so. We will push for the terms we've already come to agree to, and not allow them to change what we've spent so much time negotiating for.

That having been said, this is my main argument:
We should accept a line for 30 turns. What is our biggest concern about this? I think it's them building a city near the bend in the ocean. It's a very strategic location, and we shouldn't ignore it. Hopefully they will not try to do so, but we cannot rule it out. For now we will assume they won't. If they do, they have a city that is useless in the short-term, and will make expansion east into the peninsula very very difficult for them, even if they DO get a city down.

The other part of my argument is that we should make that line non-crossable by units from both sides. That would protect our goody hut, in addition to the fact that we've already gotten them to agree to a deal where W2 'bigfree1' will move south. He can come back north via the west coast and find out more once the 30 turns has expired. This way we can keep them out of the peninsula, and whatever it may hold, while our exploration won't be hindered. In the long run, the line will help US.

What do you guys think?

I think us sucking our pride up one last time may prove very useful for us as well as them...

Last edited by Trip on 19-03-2003 at 23:37

	19-03-2003 23:33									#78
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Note that our warrior is (conveniently) blocking the view to the Eastern Lands' shore.

EDIT: this was a response to one of the posts above.

	19-03-2003 23:33									#79
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 What if GF was instructed to say those things to you so we'll be more open in negotiating with him, or for any other reason? What he said about the other CDG members sounds very unreasonable, and IMHO it's just as likely that he's lying and they are trying to make us think they're divided or very angry or whatever. EDIT: crosspost

The same is true in my situation though as well. They are very open while talking with me, and twice I've been able to open up discussions while we were at an impasse. It can be a good tool for both sides to have a "friend" on the other team, if only in appearance.

	19-03-2003 23:36									#80
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Nix the no explorers, please. That would mean we cannot explore in the west.

Who is in the better position to learn more about the other? We have 1 way to go, south. S, SE, SW.

They have all corners of the compass to cover, with roughly the same number of units. We lose much more by agreeing not to go south of any line.

	19-03-2003 23:38									#81
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Trip:

your idea is good, the only problem is that we should enter the negotiation trying our utmost for them to accept the previously negotiated deal (radius). Only if we feel that there is absolutely positively definitely no way they will budge will we switch to this new proposal.

If we start with this attitude, what will prevent them from asking for more in a further negotiation?? They'll begin to think, "Apolyton asks for this, we refuse, then Apolyton will accept, so we ask for something more, etc etc etc". That is NOT the impression I want to give them.

-MZ

	19-03-2003 23:44									#82
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Nix the no explorers, please. That would mean we cannot explore in the west. Who is in the better position to learn more about the other? We have 1 way to go, south. S, SE, SW. They have all corners of the compass to cover, with roughly the same number of units. We lose much more by agreeing not to go south of any line.

As long as we already have a unit allowed to move around, the issue becomes less important. They won't be able to find out what is north. We still have an opportunity to see what is south and west. Besides, are they going to be patrolling the 'line' to make sure we never cross it? It will be easy to see if they have breached the agreement. They have no way of checking that we've not been moving units a little ways.

	19-03-2003 23:45									#83
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If they're such amateurs, maybe they'll be all the more apt to listen to reason. Perhaps we could simply point out to them that the way they're handling diplomacy is not going to help them very much in the long run (or the medium run). We're put off that they lied and such, and understandably so. Yet if we swallow our pride we could salvage a peaceful solution here. And if this does not work, at least we'll know they definitely want war, instead of just being difficult for the fun of it.


Dominae

	19-03-2003 23:46									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Trip: your idea is good, the only problem is that we should enter the negotiation trying our utmost for them to accept the previously negotiated deal (radius). Only if we feel that there is absolutely positively definitely no way they will budge will we switch to this new proposal. If we start with this attitude, what will prevent them from asking for more in a further negotiation?? They'll begin to think, "Apolyton asks for this, we refuse, then Apolyton will accept, so we ask for something more, etc etc etc". That is NOT the impression I want to give them. -MZ

Yes, that's a good point. We should push for what we originally wanted, but they have made it clear they don't want a radius. We should make things as difficult as possible, but in the end we should agree.

	19-03-2003 23:49									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae If they're such amateurs, maybe they'll be all the more apt to listen to reason. Perhaps we could simply point out to them that the way they're handling diplomacy is not going to help them very much in the long run (or the medium run). We're put off that they lied and such, and understandably so. Yet if we swallow our pride we could salvage a peaceful solution here. And if this does not work, at least we'll know they definitely want war, instead of just being difficult for the fun of it. Dominae

They are too worried about the fact that Apolyton and GCA may team up to destroy it from each side (which is a possibility, especially given their diplomatic stance with us...). Other than that, they see no reason unfortunately, and actually made it clear they would go to war to prevent that from ever occurring...

	19-03-2003 23:51									#86
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We need to contact GCA as quickly as possible, so that CDG, in their volatile state, does not ruin our relations with them as well.


Dominae

	19-03-2003 23:55									#87
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Remember guys, that paranoia is guiding CDG's foreign policy. Psycologically we MUST use this against them.

Kentionio yesterday admitted he is "surrounded by Poly and GCA" therefore indirectly admitting there is no major land to the west or directly south.

Animals when they are cornered act aggressive. That is what CDG is doing. They will start a reckless war if they feel they are cornered too much and for our and their sake we should do everything to avoid this as whoever wins (and I am sure we will ) will still sufferer a stunted medium-term growth.

	19-03-2003 23:55									#88
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The problem is, they can replay the turn if they do not manage to kill our Warrior on the first try... if they wanted to, they could stop us at any cost. Not a pleasant ending, but it's a possibility.

	19-03-2003 23:59									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Calm down F-P, calm down! This is a demo game, not a regular MP game. Diplomacy is a HUGE aspect of this game, in fact, it is what separates this from any normal MP and we wouldn't be having half as much fun if this weren't the case. Keep your warmongering instincts until we really need tham, and trust me, we will.

Diplomacy is only a huge aspect of the game if both sides are skilled in the art of diplomacy....which they have not, at the moment, demonstrated any particular gift for. You can't talk if the other guy isn't listening. Let's bear in mind the Civ choices in this game- if you pick Persia, you ARE out for an early war. Otherwise they'd pick the Ottomans. We dropped the ball in confronting them so aggressively and so early, true- would've been much better to direct them towards India- but we should probably accept that they ARE planning hostile actions.

I would agree to "give in" to calm them down, but only if the intent is to crush them ASAP. Diplomacy as I understand it relies on predictability, and Persia is a loose cannon. We could try an abrupt change of face, though. Something like

"Hey, you know what, better for both of us if we put this behind. Let's agree to put it all past as a bygone and show of trust, and deal with India before they get into Elephant Mode- they're already ahead of us in cities."

Which, of course, we would fulfill only long enough to get an upper hand and remove the loose cannon. We could even consider using our communications with India as soon as we get them to explain the full situation to them and feed them troop locations on the Persian border. :P It is in our and India's best interests to make the Immortals and their Nutcase Leaders go away.

It might require a bit of impressive wheeling to get India to trust us in that situation.... but that's what you Diplomats and all this talk of Diplomacy is for, right?

	20-03-2003 00:13									#90
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F-P, diplomacy can also be used to decieve those who are not as experienced as we. If they think that we're going to be weak and submissive, they'll be surprised with our next meeting after we've gotten contact with GCA and finished BW.

As I've said numerous times, we must pick our battles, and not go looking for them. This is the lesson I've learned most from the PTW DG.

Right now our only advantage is that they don't have any advantages. We're on relatively equal stance, and one bad move could make things very bad for our team right now. You don't seek out a war with 1 city. Never. Even if we win and "teach them a lesson," that means everyone is ahead of us, because they will be fighting for their lives, and we will be fighting to stop them from winning. That costs resources to make sure that we aren't overwhelmed.