19-03-2003 23:11									#91
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It would have been a good speech, if chemical and biological weapons were actually as dangerous as he claims. Plus, he forgot to mention that the 'precursors' are the backbone materials of any decent sanitation and medical infrastructure.

	19-03-2003 23:12									#92
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quote: And the spirit of a Democratic REPUBLIC is that the government does not allow the mob of true democracy to trample over the rights of the minority

Therefore, Great Britain is not an "enlightened" true democracy. So it really has no moral authority at all to bring "democracy" to Iraq, does it?

(Remember, britain promised to bring democracy to its colonies as well....We see how well that turned out.)

quote: In some cases it is best for the elected representatives to defy the people

But you'll notice the Civil Rights movement gave rights to people and improved their lives...A war on Iraq will destroy Iraqi infrastructure, and possibly kill thousands of civilians (directly, through bombs. Not indirectly. Indirectly it will probably be much more.).

Granting Civil Rights to persecuted peoples is enlightened, but wars or not

quote: Why now then is parlaiment suddenly undemocratic

Because its not listening to the people....?

quote: I'm sweet. I gave you an out.

Translation: Damn

	19-03-2003 23:48									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Edan It's not the delivery I care so much. Bush could have read this directly off a sheet of paper and I would have prefered it to last weeks press conference or even Monday's speech. (indeed, I did not see Blair give thespeech, I only read it)

Yeah, Bush in the last several weeks has essentially been repeating himself. Blair, on the other hand, is enormously persuasive. He made the French look to be what they are: intentionally obstructive. The French could not have had a good faith belief that further cat and mouse game playing would have disarmed Saddam. An utterly convincing portraylal of French mendacity and duplicity.

	20-03-2003 01:30									#94
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quote: Therefore, Great Britain is not an "enlightened" true democracy. So it really has no moral authority at all to bring "democracy" to Iraq, does it?

It has the authority to bring republicanism to Iraq. And no one has moral authority over anyone.

quote: But you'll notice the Civil Rights movement gave rights to people and improved their lives...A war on Iraq will destroy Iraqi infrastructure, and possibly kill thousands of civilians (directly, through bombs. Not indirectly. Indirectly it will probably be much more.).

You'll notice the War on Iraq will give rights to people and improved their lives. It will create a democratic republic, where the people can vote on their leaders, leading to more rights and the beginning of new prosperity.

quote: Granting Civil Rights to persecuted peoples is enlightened, but wars or not

What is an is not enlightened is a personal preference.

	20-03-2003 01:34									#95
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quote: You'll notice the War on Iraq will give rights to people and improved their lives. It will create a democratic republic, where the people can vote on their leaders, leading to more rights and the beginning of new prosperity.

I was hoping you would say that

If the entire country is in ruins, rihts wont really matter will they (Just look at Afghanistan)? AND the US has said that they'll install a military dictatorship until "democratic reforms can begin". How long will that take?! Until all the oil has run out?

quote: What is an is not enlightened is a personal preference.

Answer the following with a yes or no question: Is this war enlightened?

	20-03-2003 01:37									#96
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quote: Remember, britain promised to bring democracy to its colonies as well....We see how well that turned out.

Australia... Canada... India... South Africa...

Looks like they did a decent job to me.

	20-03-2003 01:38									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Remember, britain promised to bring democracy to its colonies as well....We see how well that turned out. Australia... Canada... India... South Africa... Looks like they did a decent job to me.

But you see, they arent the ones who did it Lets look at India....They taxed them heavily, murdered them, etc etc.....It was much more like a dictatorship

Then it got independance and against all odds, became a democracy.

Also, wasn't Australia a former Penal colony?

	20-03-2003 01:41									#98
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Nice try, Tass.

	20-03-2003 01:43									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Nice try, Tass.

Thanks. I've been practicing

	20-03-2003 01:44									#100
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quote: If the entire country is in ruins, rihts wont really matter will they

Because of course, after WW2, when Britain, France, Italy and West Germany were in ruins, political rights didn't make any difference, and they are still third world countries today .

quote: Answer the following with a yes or no question: Is this war enlightened?

To me? Yes, this war is.

quote: Lets look at India....They taxed them heavily, murdered them, etc etc.....It was much more like a dictatorship

You do need to look at the history of India. While it was true that the British weren't nice, they gave a LOT of local authority. Raj's owned great kingdoms. After the Indian Rebellion of the 1870s (about then), India was basically left alone.

quote: Then it got independance and against all odds, became a democracy.

They became a republic BECAUSE of British education and values. Even today, Indians are taught in schools that use British education. They very much respect Great Britain.

	20-03-2003 01:47									#101
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British Parliament Declares War on CBeasts!

	20-03-2003 01:47									#102
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quote: Because of course, after WW2, when Britain, France, Italy and West Germany were in ruins, political rights didn't make any difference, and they are still third world countries today .

Yes. George Bush won WW2, didnt he?

Afghanistan is in ruins. There are basically two countries there now: Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, and Islamic Republic of Kabul The country is not quite rebuilding much at all, and warlords still rule most of it

quote: To me? Yes, this war is.

Nuff said.

quote: While it was true that the British weren't nice, they gave a LOT of local authority.

Does it really matter if they can come in at any time and kill you?!

quote: They very much respect Great Britain.

Apparently, SOMEONE hasn't been to India. And trust me, I've visited Bombay, New Dehli, and Calcutta before.

	20-03-2003 01:48									#103
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Close one.

	20-03-2003 01:48									#104
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I've enjoyed this little tete-e-tete, but I have more important matters to attend to.

(Or whatever it is)

	20-03-2003 01:51									#105
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What I want to know is why Blair didn't give the Commons a free vote on this. Surely it's more a matter of conscience than of policy.

	20-03-2003 02:03									#106
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I thought it was a free vote, technically. If you go to the BBC website, they posted a list of MP's who voted against war, and a great deal of them are Labour.

	20-03-2003 02:11									#107
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quote: Afghanistan is in ruins. There are basically two countries there now: Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, and Islamic Republic of Kabul The country is not quite rebuilding much at all, and warlords still rule most of it

Name a time when Afghanistan hasn't been in ruins? It isn't a place that is good for humans. And the goal there was simply to kick the Taliban out. The end goal in Iraq is to install a democracy there.

quote: Does it really matter if they can come in at any time and kill you?!

Such as? Oh, wait, you mean when Indians revolted (which they've done in many almost Civil Wars since independance), they should have just sat there?

quote: Apparently, SOMEONE hasn't been to India. And trust me, I've visited Bombay, New Dehli, and Calcutta before.

*looks at self* Hmm, thought so. I look like Indian ethnicity!

Every Indian I've talked to loves the British. They want to be the British. Even when I went over to Pakistan, they expressed a deep respect for the Brits and sent their kids to British schools.

	20-03-2003 04:03									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Apparently, SOMEONE hasn't been to India. And trust me, I've visited Bombay, New Dehli, and Calcutta before. *looks at self* Hmm, thought so. I look like Indian ethnicity! Every Indian I've talked to loves the British. They want to be the British. Even when I went over to Pakistan, they expressed a deep respect for the Brits and sent their kids to British schools.

Tass' mouth, meet foot.

Do you want some nice curry to go with that?

btw, the plan to spin off the colonies to independant status began with Canada and the Durham Report. Lord Durham concluded that independence for Canada would be better for the Empire. He was right.

	20-03-2003 05:33									#109
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quote: And the goal there was simply to kick the Taliban out.

Bush said that we would rebuild the nation

quote: they should have just sat there?

No, they should have left

quote: I look like Indian ethnicity!

Sorry, but I consider Indians in Dehli, Bombay, etc slightly more representative of India than someone in Georgia

quote: Every Indian I've talked to loves the British.

Really? In India there seemed to be DEEP resentment towards the British. Especially in Calcutta.

quote: Even when I went over to Pakistan, they expressed a deep respect for the Brits and sent their kids to British schools

And why don't I believe this? Oh yeah, Pakistan hates the western world Try again Imran.....

	22-03-2003 16:52									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson I thought it was a free vote, technically. If you go to the BBC website, they posted a list of MP's who voted against war, and a great deal of them are Labour.

It wasn't a free vote in any sense of the word. A free vote means that all whips are off; in this case, Labour whips were racing around the Commons begging Labour MPs not to rebel, threatening them with all kinds of things, saying that Blair would be forced to call a General Election if too many people rebelled.

That's not a free vote.