19-03-2003 04:12									#1
	Commons votes WAR! Put an end to popups!

Just in.

Blair is safe.

Saddam is not.

Blair wins Parliament vote on Iraq war

	19-03-2003 04:15									#2
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rats

Edit : the article with personal comments within :

quote: LONDON, England -- British Prime Minister Tony Blair, facing one of his toughest challenges as party leader Tuesday, won a controversial vote in the House of Commons supporting his nation's military participation in a possible U.S.-led war on Iraq. In a 412 to 149 vote, Blair staved off a major revolt by members of Parliament unhappy about British involvement in Iraq without backing from a second United Nations resolution. Blair does not need parliamentary approval to take Britain into war. But observers said another rebellion in his ranks would be a major political embarrassment. Polls show a majority of Britons oppose a war without a second U.N. resolution.

How wonderfully Democracy has been respected today. 73% of the commoners voted for the war, while a majority of the popluation oppose it. But our sole aim is to export Democracy in Iraq doesn't it ?

quote: During a speech before the vote, Blair said Iraqi President Saddam Hussein had failed to comply with previous U.N. resolutions, and he said he believed dictators and international terrorists come together to wreak havoc.

Believe ? I thought there were proofs ?

quote: He said he was concerned a dirty bomb might be set off in London or another major UK city.

Fair enough. Of course, attacking a country and destroying the very power that controls these weapons will have absolutely no consequences with such weapons being sold by corrupt officers to terrorists or criminals.

quote: Blair told a packed House of Commons: "Our fault has not been impatience, the truth is, our patience should have been exhausted weeks and months and even years ago." Iraq was not the only threat to the rest of the world, but "it is the test of whether we take this threat seriously," he said. Failure to deal with Saddam would lead other nations to believe they could develop weapons of mass destruction with impunity, he said.

What about UN inspectors being mostly satisfied with Iraq's disarmament ?

quote: The U.N.'s credibility would be destroyed if no action was taken, he said: "To continue with strong language and weak intentions is the worst course imaginable."

That is possibly the funniest bit US/UK ignore the UN completely, and withdraws the 2nd resolution because there wouldn't be a majority to back it (and not only French and Russian vetoes). US/UK spit on the UN, but of course, it is to make the UN respected. Great plan

quote: Blair called for a new U.N. resolution covering humanitarian assistance as well as the administration and governance of Iraq.

Let's hope the great US administration will forget its personal pride for a moment and listen this call for wisdom.

quote: Iain Duncan Smith, leader of the main opposition party, the Conservatives, said he would back the government line because it was "in the British interest."

I love how Blair manages a semi consensus between the disciplined labourers and the conservatives. Too bad this consensus isn't shared by the British people.

quote: In a vote on a possible war last month, 122 members of Blair's own Labour Party in Parliament voted against the government. Blair suffered early setbacks with the resignation Monday of senior Cabinet minister Robin Cook, the House leader. Cook told a packed parliament he could not support a war without international agreement or domestic support. (Speech in full) Lord Hunt, a junior health minister in the House of Lords, the upper chamber, and Home Office Minister John Denham announced their resignations Tuesday. Duncan Smith suffered three resignations from his front bench, including shadow environment minister Jonathan Sayeed, shadow home affairs minister Humfrey Malins, and shadow health minister John Baron.

Can anyone recall me what is the role of the shadow government ? I keep forgetting.

quote: But Labour's International Development Secretary Claire Short, who had threatened to resign if military action went ahead without U.N. backing, announced she will not leave her post. "I know I will be heavily criticized for my decision and many people will feel I have let them down. But I am doing what I think is right in the circumstances which we are now in," she said.

I'm expecting some retaliation on her carreer anyways if Blair or his cronies politically survive.

	19-03-2003 04:15									#3
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quote: During a speech before the vote, Blair said Iraqi President Saddam Hussein had failed to comply with previous U.N. resolutions, and he said he believed dictators and international terrorists come together to wreak havoc. He said he was concerned a dirty bomb might be set off in London or another major UK city.

...o-kay...

	19-03-2003 04:25									#4
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WTG, Brits with brains.

	19-03-2003 04:33									#5
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BTW, did you notice that bit in the CNN article about France helping in case of chemical warfare ?

quote: Levitte also said France would want the United States to go back to the United Nations and participate in a Security Council resolution that would include humanitarian aid and assistance for a post-Saddam Iraq.

It reminds me of this bit in the UK parliament article :

quote: Blair called for a new U.N. resolution covering humanitarian assistance as well as the administration and governance of Iraq.

Is that the great "compromise" France and Britain found ? Paris' attempts to compromise with London were pretty much spoken about yesterday here.

	19-03-2003 04:34									#6
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quote: WTG, Brits with brains.

but no ears...

	19-03-2003 04:39									#7
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Yeah. Having ears with no brains is much preferred.

	19-03-2003 04:41									#8
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Apparantly, the US and Britain wish to impose Democracy, yet don't want to practice it.

	19-03-2003 04:41									#9
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To quote the title of a Dead Kennedys album, this certainly seems to be 'bedtime for democracy'...Blair cannot be permitted to carry on like this against the will of the population!

	19-03-2003 04:44									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor BTW, did you notice that bit in the CNN article about France helping in case of chemical warfare ? quote: Levitte also said France would want the United States to go back to the United Nations and participate in a Security Council resolution that would include humanitarian aid and assistance for a post-Saddam Iraq. It reminds me of this bit in the UK parliament article : quote: Blair called for a new U.N. resolution covering humanitarian assistance as well as the administration and governance of Iraq. Is that the great "compromise" France and Britain found ? Paris' attempts to compromise with London were pretty much spoken about yesterday here.

I suppose the UN could endorse the American military government post victory and make IT legitimate. Of course, France would then have a major say in what happens and in what order. They probably will insist that debt service, especially in the debts owed France, take precedence over reconstruction.

I'm just a little too cynical about France.

But of course, Blair has every right to call for UN support. He, after all, is sending troops.

	19-03-2003 04:47									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison To quote the title of a Dead Kennedys album, this certainly seems to be 'bedtime for democracy'...Blair cannot be permitted to carry on like this against the will of the population!

Huh?

I suspect that Blair will be very popular after the war is over and the threat of Saddam is removed.

Does anyone recall what happened to John Major's popularity after the Gulf War?

	19-03-2003 04:47									#12
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Oh hell, this "he's ignoring polls, so he's anti-democracy" drivel is pure crap. We're talking about republics here -- if the voters don't like the policies of the people they elected, then they can vote them out of office come next election, easy peasy. If they want a referendum to be held every time an important issue comes up, then they can bloody well change the whole system of government.

	19-03-2003 04:51									#13
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Oh hell, this "he's ignoring polls, so he's anti-democracy" drivel is pure crap. We're talking about republics here -- if the voters don't like the policies of the people they elected, then they can vote them out of office come next election, easy peasy. If they want a referendum to be held every time an important issue comes up, then they can bloody well change the whole system of government.

A million-strong protest is a hint on behalf of the public that he is not acting according to their desires...that should be, by far, more than hint enough for referendum. As this makes quite clear, elected parliaments most certainly do not equal democracy!

	19-03-2003 05:10									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Apparantly, the US and Britain wish to impose Democracy, yet don't want to practice it.

In a Democracy, the majority win.
Just because you'd like to be in the majority, counts for nothing.

	19-03-2003 05:11									#15
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shouldn't the U.S. get a declaration of war from Congress too

	19-03-2003 05:15									#16
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BTW uneducated people.

The U.S. isn't a democracy. I learned that in elementary school.

We have elected officials to make decisions for us. If we don't like those decisions, we get rid of them in the next election. We don't hold mass votes on every issue for every american to approve or dissaprove.

I suggest taking more goverment classes in school.

I'm not completey sure of England's goverment, but I'd imagine it is something similar. A republic.

	19-03-2003 05:21									#17
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The problems for Blair were never with this vote which he couldn't lose since the Tories backed him.

His problem is in the coming weeks if the war goes badly and the Labour party begins to suffer in the polls. Even more problems will arise if he chooses to participate in next year's installment of Bush vs the World. With just under a third of his party rebelling, many from safer Labour seats it makes it that much easier for potential rivals to effect change.

	19-03-2003 05:23									#18
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next year is an election year for Bush. He won't be doing anything. Trust me. Why do you think we had to do the war now and not wait for more time for Saddam to disarm? Bush cannot have this thing go into next year.

	19-03-2003 05:23									#19
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I think it should be made perfectly clear that a representative democracy going against a majority of pollers on one issue. is NOT A FAILURE OF PRACTICING DEMOCRACY.

and all you ppl who keep harping on this are about as bad as the ppl who say gore should have won the presidency cuz he had the majority of votes. but forget that constitutionally it is setup specifically to have a compromise between population and geography.

	19-03-2003 05:23									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident BTW uneducated people. The U.S. isn't a democracy. I learned that in elementary school.

It isn't even what you think it is. Its political system is corrupted by money and shackled by a ridiculous system and a large proportion of the population doesn't vote.

Worst of all, they don't even count the votes that people do manage to cast.

	19-03-2003 05:26									#21
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I'm not sure of the U.K. numbers.

But more people support the war than are against it in the U.S. The latest I've heard was 46% support it. While not a majority, it does outnumber the people against war. There are always lots of people undecided. Perhaps if the undecided went anti-war, then they'd have a majority.

But to say a majority of the population is against the war in the U.S. is just wrong.

	19-03-2003 05:29									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I suppose the UN could endorse the American military government post victory and make IT legitimate. Of course, France would then have a major say in what happens and in what order. They probably will insist that debt service, especially in the debts owed France, take precedence over reconstruction. I'm just a little too cynical about France. But of course, Blair has every right to call for UN support. He, after all, is sending troops.

France will most probably look for keeping its advantages it got with Saddam, as will Russia. However, if the UN agrees with not changing Saddm-time deals, France and Russia will not plunder Iraq as soon as possible.
It will rather invest in the reconstruction, to avoid making Iraq a massive terrorist recruitment center. Also, a healthy Iraq can be good for France as it can be a good client / oil provider.
Lastly, a successful Iraqi reconstruction, with the help of France and the UN, will do good to the domestic image of our leaders.

France won't help rebuild out of altruism, but it has no interest in further impoverishing Iraq.

	19-03-2003 05:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Does anyone recall what happened to John Major's popularity after the Gulf War?

Not a whole lot, he had only been in power for a couple of months before the whole thing was over.

	19-03-2003 05:36									#24
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Actually, Dissident, there is a poll running on CNN where two-thirds of Americans support Bush's ultimatum.

	19-03-2003 05:39									#25
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On the UK, how can the frustrated anti-war type vote if their Labour MP voted with Blair? Vote Tory? I doubt it.

The 412 - 149, IMHO, is huge. Better than Bush did in Congress.

Last edited by Ned on 19-03-2003 at 07:11

	19-03-2003 05:39									#26
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yeah that's a different poll.

It is interesting how the wording on a poll makes that much difference.

The poll I am quoting was from 2 days ago. It had 65% or so in favour with a resolution. 46% in favour without. But it still outnumbered opposition because of the undecided votes.

	19-03-2003 05:52									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ned On the UK, how can the frustrated anti-war type vote if their Labour MP voted with Blair? Vote Tory?

Lib Dem

	19-03-2003 05:55									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ned On the UK, how can the frustrated anti-war type vote if their Labour MP voted with Blair? Vote Tory? I doubt it. The 412 - 149, IMHO, is hugh. Better than Bush did in Congress.

I suppose it shows the greatness of Democracy : "you don't have alternatives so feck you" is the spirit.
If the fight is close between the tories and the labour, it will be nearly pointless to vote lib-dem in the next election, because of the electoral system. IIRC, Lib-dems have many more votes in proportion than seats, but the British electoral system makes it impossible to win except in the few districts that are very much lib-dem.
Besides, I think I remember Lib-Dems are free-marketers, so the true left (good part of the anti-wars) might not feel represented by them. The electoral system discourages the labour to implode, so left-winged voters in Britain are screwed.

	19-03-2003 06:10									#29
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Instead of insulting people, some 'Poly posters need to accurately read posts before running their mouths... err fingers. I never said the US was a Democracy.

	19-03-2003 06:48									#30
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Dissident: Recent polls show about 65% of the people back war, even though it is clear there will be no UN resoultion. Whille reading www.bbc.co.uk today, at present 50% of the people back war whilst 42% oppose it.

Great Britain This is a wonderful victory today, with Blair suceeding in brining his country to war without another UN resolution.