21-03-2003 08:43									#1
	Limited time... and a thought re CDG Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sorry guys, I have had NO time... but I've been trying to catch up on the threads as much as I am able.

My general impression:

* We need a tight tight tight build, focused on early military production and on cross-town support (e.g., 3-tile spacing).

* CDG is totally unstable... the diplo shenanigans notwithstanding, we need to be ready for Immortals. Only the paranoid survive.

* Further, I like some of F-P's concepts... use NMs as aggressors!! I'm not posting on 'poly as much as I'd like, but I keep up on reading, and F-P knows how to play Carthage in MP as much as anyone.

F-ck CDG. Let's burn them.

I haven't seen anyone really discuss this concept yet (Trip, a warfighter thread?). 3-4 towns, maximally using our best tiles (Dominae, you get what I mean)... Warriors for upgrade (I disagree with the arguments about not finding iron), and NMs... small spoiler stacks first, to trash CDG production...

Then make the Persians our bee-yatch.

I WISH I had more time... I am pissed off, and want CDG blood.

	21-03-2003 09:57									#2
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Well I'd personally prefer if Apolyton wasn't known as agressors. Despite what we tell people, there will still be a tarnished image among the teams that we pre-emptively struck out at another civilization.

I do agree though, but I think it's best to start considering our military options after the 30 turn NAP is up and then we try diplomacy to milk them for all they are worth.

	21-03-2003 10:05									#3
	Re: Limited time... and a thought re CDG Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Theseus I haven't seen anyone really discuss this concept yet (Trip, a warfighter thread?). 3-4 towns, maximally using our best tiles (Dominae, you get what I mean)...z

If you have the time check the "After the Granary" thread. I believe it applies this very idea.

Take your time off Civ3, Theseus, but know that when the war really starts we're going to need our Vice Minister of War!


Dominae

	21-03-2003 11:06									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I haven't seen anyone really discuss this concept yet (Trip, a warfighter thread?).

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=81054

One step ahead of you.

The idea is still to prevent war. Though if it comes, I'm ready...

	22-03-2003 04:09									#5
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I'm not exactly sure where to put these comments, as they touch on many different issues that have been discussed elsewhere... so I'll use, uh, my thread!

Whew... that was a lot to catch up on. As a sign of Team 'Poly dedication, I left work mid-afternoon for this!!

Also, though I've been exceedingly scarce around here this week, I've had this game running in the back of my head CONSTANTLY, especially after reading the 3/18 chat.

Here are some thoughts:

* As much as diplomacy is critical, and given that further relations with CDG could lead who-knows-where, I think we would be exceedingly foolish not to be planning for the worst case scenario.

* Accordingly, this means we MUST have IW... but not only so that we can upgrade to and build Swordsmen, but so that we know if CDG has iron, and where!!

* We need to maximize our military production, and at the same time have a defensible empire... I think the answer is: Build only two Settlers until the threat is contained, leaving us with Apolyton, City1, and City2. The final placement of the two new towns should be strict 3-tile, for maximum defense.

* Otherwise, build only military units and Workers and one Barracks. Use two chops to get the Barracks done quickly. Use the Barracks town for NMs. Use Apolyton and the non-Barracks town for Warriors and Archers, and possibly two reg NMs.

* We need to explore around CDG, in a BIG way. We need to see where their hills and mountains are.

* F-P's articles on Carthage have been great, including "Diplomacy at the point of a sword" here but also in the PTW forum. Aggressive defense, indeed: I say we be ready to swoop in for some serious pillaging if we see that CDG has iron. I REALLY MEAN THIS GUYS!! I don;t give a hoot what our diplomatic situation is at that point... I don;t trust them, and must INSIST that they not be allowed Immortals. If their nexk is thus bared for GCA, so be it, they've brought it on themselves via lying and untoward demands. Thus, btw, this is where the two reg NMs come in... we want them ready ASAP, and as long as the stick to good defensive terrain, they'll be all but invulnerable to Archers and Warrors.

* Once we have enough troops to 1) properly defend ourselves and 2) commit whatever mayhem we so choose on CDG, then we go back to building Settlers.

	22-03-2003 04:28									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus * Accordingly, this means we MUST have IW... but not only so that we can upgrade to and build Swordsmen, but so that we know if CDG has iron, and where!!

*agree* (with the rest, too, but this one is very important)

	22-03-2003 04:33									#7
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I can go along with this, as it adequately addresses defense and provides for the 'pay-back' to CDG!

It also means we'd have to research WC and IW; which one first? I'm mixed on this. On one hand you'd know where 'our' Iron is and where 'their' Iron is. On the other, we'd have a cheap answer to any Immortals that they mangae to pop out before we can cut the supply of Iron. Someone (or more) help me out on this.

	22-03-2003 04:46									#8
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Actually, as I'm catching up in the Strat forum too, and someone recently revived Sir Ralph's ( still ) "Timeline for the ultra-early Archer rush" thread...

What about it? Three towns is enough. Destroy CDG before Immortals are even an issue, and avoid a GA.

	22-03-2003 04:46									#9
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Once we have BW our woes are finished. CDG is insane, they might be willing to start an Immortal vs NM war, WHICH THEY WILL LOSE.

Look at the bright side, if they are so crazy about diplomacy, WHAT MAKES ANYONE HERE THINK THEY WILL BE RATIONAL DURING WAR???

We will make them our bee-yatches soon enough Theseus, be ready

	22-03-2003 04:55									#10
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As the economic geek here, I would like to point out that the "3 strong cities" plan is not really doable: just look at the number of good tiles we can work. If we want the three cities to all be productive, there is going to be fiece competition for tiles, and a huge demand for Workers to improve them (unimproved Grasslands do not really help the war effort). The only way of bolstering our power beyond immediate gratification of a couple of Mercs. is to found some new cities and get them building Workers to cut down that Jungle.

People seem willing to put everything into an immediate confrontation. But we still need to build! Please try out a test scenario of your own before assuming that "Barracks and Mercs." are so easy to come by. We're not Militaristic, and Mercs. cost 30 Shields! We could conceivably dedicate every single Shield to military, but that would leave us so far behind economically that Persia could just sit back and decide to conquer us (far more easily) 40 turns down the line.


Dominae

	22-03-2003 04:57									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Actually, as I'm catching up in the Strat forum too, and someone recently revived Sir Ralph's ( still ) "Timeline for the ultra-early Archer rush" thread... What about it? Three towns is enough. Destroy CDG before Immortals are even an issue, and avoid a GA.

I'm liking this even more.....

	22-03-2003 05:03									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae As the economic geek here, I would like to point out that the "3 strong cities" plan is not really doable: just look at the number of good tiles we can work. If we want the three cities to all be productive, there is going to be fiece competition for tiles, and a huge demand for Workers to improve them (unimproved Grasslands do not really help the war effort). The only way of bolstering our power beyond immediate gratification of a couple of Mercs. is to found some new cities and get them building Workers to cut down that Jungle. People seem willing to put everything into an immediate confrontation. But we still need to build! Please try out a test scenario of your own before assuming that "Barracks and Mercs." are so easy to come by. We're not Militaristic, and Mercs. cost 30 Shields! We could conceivably dedicate every single Shield to military, but that would leave us so far behind economically that Persia could just sit back and decide to conquer us (far more easily) 40 turns down the line. Dominae

Sorry Dominae. We must all sound like a bunch of kids running to Mom and Dad asking for the latest pair of sneakers that cost $200, when all they have in the wallet is food stamps.

I will try to tone it down in the future.

	22-03-2003 05:07									#13
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Heh, no need to apologize BigFree. As Ministry of the Interior it is my job (I think) to inform everyone of what is and is not possible. I would love to have a few Mercs. handy right now myself (I'm not an anti-warmonger by any means!), but we have to work with what we've got, not what we want.


Dominae

	22-03-2003 05:15									#14
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Dominae is probably right. Unless we stock up on Warriors and find some miracle source of iron somewhere, it would hurt our economy too much to set out for attacking them.

I'm still leaving judgement out on this one, but I'm leaning against this sort of thing.

	22-03-2003 05:19									#15
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Dom, what about for Archer rushing though? Three towns, don;t worry about jungle for now, just improve the grassland...

These CDG fools wouldn't stand a chance.

Where do I find a a test scenario to play with?

	22-03-2003 05:30									#16
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How about no-Barracks Mercs? We get a Merc out much quicker than we would otherwise, basically staying 1 Merc ahead of schedual until we do end up building a Barracks eventually.

That 'extra' Merc just goes out and fights barbs until it upgrades, by which time a new Merc gets to replace it. We'd have a higher number of Mercs at all times, and with any luck actually exceed the number of hp's between our Mercs.

The northern peninsula (and likely the SE land) are going to be perfect for barbarian hunting. Not to mention the 3-5 Barbs still roaming around from our huts. In my first run through, I had a 3 turn average killing barbs in just the northern peninsula using 2 units(6 turns, barb wanderer + barb camp). The 25 gold every 6 turns is nice too. If the SE land turns out to be a peninsula, we could possibly double that. Should be plenty of fighting to get our Mercs up to Elites rather quickly.


Basically a Barracks costs 4 Merc HP's to build, and so it would be the 4th Merc built before it starts paying off. That's going to be 20-30 turns, in which time we are likely to get at least a couple upgrades from barbs that we wouldn't if we were 1 1/3 Mercs behind.

We do want a Barracks eventually, as their won't be enough barbs for every unit, and we need somewhere to upgrade Warriors. I don't think it's worth building before our first few Mercs though.

	22-03-2003 05:32									#17
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Give diplomacy a chance Theseus ,

Our priority is not getting into premature wars so we can fight under more favorable circumstances. But I do want to kick CDG butt later on...

	22-03-2003 05:34									#18
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I'm thinking about "What if we took CDG out?"

It might not be good for us if GCA doesn't have much room for expansion. If we come down and clear out CDG then GCA has all the more room to expand. It looks as if they are pretty damn close; I couldn't imagine GCA building the second city too far away from their Capitol.

Maybe we should just back off and let "nature" take it's course; CDG and GCA will be at it for reasons important to each others growth. They'll end up weakening each other in the long run; if they don't team up first against us. But I think that a CDG and GCA alliance won't happen because they are too close for comfort. GCA is doomed. The Immortals will be too much for them.

Maybe we should come in after things get going between those two to sort of slow CDG a bit. We'd want them both to survive. It's better for us to have two moderately weak Civ's as our closest neighbors than one really powerful one. We'd have to time this just right. We'd have to probably side with CDG on the surface and then show them the fury they stirred during our negotiations.

It may look like I'm going full circle on this issue; but I'm trying to be objective and think of the long term effects of war with CDG and it's relation with GCA.

	22-03-2003 05:49									#19
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@Aeson: Good thinking about reg Mercs. Even without the promotions, as long as they stick to good defensive terrain they are fearsome beasts.

@BF: I'll go back to my initial thought... we have to presume the worst. Additionally, I say we need to CONTROL the interactions of our three local civs, and that will come from a 'poly arrowhead, spear tip, or sword point at both of their damn necks.

We need POWER at the end of the 25th turn of the CDG treaty: "Do as we say, or we will destroy you."

And, btw, given such a position, do we not think that each of the two will be dying to ally with us?

	22-03-2003 05:49									#20
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Theseus, I'll post the scenario I've been using in the Ministry of the Interior topped thread shortly.

In my (limited) experience, Archer-rushes do not really work against capable human opponents (especially Industrious ones).

Aeson, the compromise I've been working on involves just that: Regular Mercs. We can get about 3 walking around with too much effort, but we'll definitely have fewer Warriors. But the psychological impact of a few of our UU could do quite well as a deterrent. Ironically, I think Vet. Mercs. would working against this idea, making CDG that we're preparing for an assault, and not just adequate defense.

BigFree, letting things run their course between CDG and GCA is a fine option. The only problem is that we have to be prepared for the possibility that they become good friends, and then come after us together. But they're close enough that they may just go to war (especially if CDG really is that unstable, and just attacks the best target it can find...not Carthage, I would think). The other option is to step in and try really hard to get GCA to like us. Or we could even try to get all three teams to like each other.


Dominae

	22-03-2003 05:59									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Or we could even try to get all three teams to like each other. Dominae

Are you crazy?!

I will NEVER like CDG!
I might tolerate them, but never "like."

I might like GCA if they don't like CDG.

Getting all three to cooperate in tech deals and such would be nice. I'm just betting that because they are soooo close to each other, tensions will be high for eternity. And lord knows CDG is incapable of making a 'friend'

	22-03-2003 05:59									#22
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I hope we don't have to think "long term" with anything other than a CDG-free continent.

GCA probably got their city from a goodie hut IMO. If CDG claims they had no contact then perhaps they really hadn't found this out too many turns before we did. But I doubt it

I vote for a Poly-GCA alliance, one that starts out as small deals but get's strenghtnened progressively. What makes you think that CDG will treat GCA differently than they treat us? GCA will appreciate dealing with an honest team, than with lunatics.

	22-03-2003 06:14									#23
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Dom,

Looking at everything, I think that something close to Aeson's situation is what we need. The barracks really isn't necessary until we have iron. I think we'd rather have the extra Merc and warrior. I do like the idea of getting to 3 or 4 cities, stop expanding, and build some regular archers, mercs, warriors.....
I know the terrain sucks, but jungle clearing takes a while. I'd think that all grassland must be used first.

brc

	22-03-2003 06:21									#24
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quote: Where do I find a a test scenario to play with?

Here is the one I've been using. Debug mode is on (just to watch the barbarians), and preserve random seed is off (so I could get the huts right).

	22-03-2003 06:45									#25
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I agree with Dominae, we need to prepair but not at the expence of falling behind. We will grow and we will get CDG back, especially if we use proper diplomacy with CFC against them.

Future CDG Negotiations-----
CDG - "We are concerned with our neighbors to the south, could you help us with that?"

Poly - "We too are concerned, but feel that we can negotiate with them in a better manner than we have with you"

CDG - :screech!:

We can use the Indians to help us out against the Paranoid CDG....

E_T

	22-03-2003 07:39									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

3 NMs by the time the treaty expires and as many Warriors as possible is what I want. Beyond that would probably put us behind, but I'll leave that up to the MOI. 3 NMs and x+2 number of Warriors is what I'm looking for.

That having been said, we're going to have to play our diplomatic fights well. We can't let one of the teams to our south get too strong, especially at the expense of the other. CDG has Immortals, GCA has an early city. That should balance things out fairly well. We shouldn't favor one team over another unless one of them actively pursues war. If we let CDG know we have an alliance with GCA, they will probably attack in hopes of beating us before we get too strong.

We must be very careful. Balance our negotiations with both teams. Do not let one or the other get an advantage. Do not favor either. They are both our enemies.

	22-03-2003 07:47									#27
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Ok, good, I'm starting to hear some consensus on these issues. About 3 Regular Mercs. (and some Warriors) is what seemed plausible in my tests, so I'll go with that. Hopefullly, we can squeeze a Granary into site 2 as well and get a head start on cutting down that Jungle.

I've had a few beers, so I'll stop talking shop now...probably say something I'll regret.


Dominae

	22-03-2003 09:36									#28
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That's why we should wait until we actually get to speak with GCA before drawing conclusions. I wrote some rough guidlines to dealing with GCA in the GCA Diplomacy thead yet no one has commented on them other than bigfree1 and his post got "ignored" by his name change

BTW, there are two official threads on CGA and GCA diplomacy, I suggest we contine the discussion over there.

	22-03-2003 11:08									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen What makes you think that CDG will treat GCA differently than they treat us? GCA will appreciate dealing with an honest team, than with lunatics.

Agreed.

--Togas

	22-03-2003 11:40									#30
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I must emphasize that we need to keep relations with both teams as similar as possible. We don't want to give CDG a reason to attack where none exists, but we also want to make sure that GCA is close enough to us that we could call on them to help us in a war.

Letting either of them get too close or too distant hurts us. Keep them both at the same distance.