22-03-2003 14:21									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I must emphasize that we need to keep relations with both teams as similar as possible. We don't want to give CDG a reason to attack where none exists, but we also want to make sure that GCA is close enough to us that we could call on them to help us in a war. Letting either of them get too close or too distant hurts us. Keep them both at the same distance.

That's what I've been advocating all along. See my post in the Gamecatcher thread

quote: Suggestion: Guidelines for negotiation with GCA Since it is inevitable that we will have contact with GCA sometime in the near future, I think it is time to set up some rough guidlines for our negotiation posture with them. First of all, what are we going to negotiate? Well, it is imperative that we try and obtain certain vital bits of information amongst these: - What is their terrain like? - Do they have contact with other civs? If so, when did they obtain that contact? - Do they have any technology deals or any other type of agreements with their contacts? - Would they be willing to make a tech deal with us? Now with respect to a deal: - We must find out if they have a deal with CDG which is likely but not certain. Either way, we must see if there is a way to negotiate any techs not in that deal or start one on our own. Ideally we may be able to fashon a tech deal between our three civilizations, this would serve to sooth relations with CDG a bit. - Hopefully they won't be as paranoid as CDG and insist on border agreements and such, and will have no inconvenience that we scout around their territory. Now here's the psycological aspect about this: Due to geography it is obvious that CDG represents the greatest threat to our own security. Our relationship with GCA, if done correctly, will serve to strenghen our position, as CDG will be encroached. That is why it is very important that: 1) We act in the most cordial and diplomatic manner as possible with GCA, give the impression that we are really interested in a long and lasting friendship. That means no hardball...yet. Hopefully if we don't play hardball, they won't either (and hopefully they are more rational and professional in their dealings with us) 2) Give them the impression that a strong Poly-GCA relationship is the most important deal we can make in the medium/short-term. We don't want TOO strong a pact though since it would simply reinforce CDG's suspicion and would prompt them to seek a war before they are likely wiped out in the future. 3) Hint at the fact that CDG has not been entirely truthful towards us, and that we do not expect the same treatment from GCA. That honesty will be regarded above anything else among our team. I think they will probaly go for this, since they undrestand that we are too far from each other to be an effective threat, let's make them feel that Poly can be trusted, and that we can be a better friend than CDG. In the meantime, let's stay low, let's not go for too ambitious a two-way pact until we are in a much stronger position to respond to retaliation by CDG. In short: light deal, strong relationship, backstab CDG later. -MZ

And pleeeease, pleeease, let's post all relevant discussion on just one thread:

GCA:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=80989

CDG:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=80950

	23-03-2003 16:39									#32
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Ah, OK MZ, but I am a little confused.

What I have to say here related more to the overall regional political situation than either team. Thus I will say it here, until corrected, in which case I will humbly shift my comments to the appropriate thread.

We are talking rather belligerently about CDG, and not without some cause. However, we are not ready to deal with them right now, and it would not necessarily be in our best interests to stall our development to build a force to oppose them. If we did so and GCA kept out of it, they benefit with their ability to develop peacefully, getting ahead of us in some ways. At CDG's end, in order to redress this balance, would we really be willing to threaten the use of our force on GCA as well? If they are good players, they will use the war to their advantage, and may well call our bluff on any threats after the war. If they do and we don't wish to sully our reps further so early on, then they could keep their advantage over us for quite some time...

This is NOT good. We are of course alerted to the possible need for war on CDG, but let's only plan for it and not start to slowdown our expansion for military until we can get to know GCA's thoughts. If we can get them on side, then by all means let's take out the rogue state. If not, then we need to seriously think about whether we will be consinging ourselves to second class status with a wasteful war. Thus, we need to know several things before committing to ANY change in our plans:

1. Can we get GCA onside against CDG?
2. Would any gains we get from CDG outweigh the advantages GCA gets from developing peacefully during our wasteful war, should they not join with us?

So, in short, we need to meet with GCA and get their ideas, and know more about what CDG has before even putting any war plans into action.

	24-03-2003 00:49									#33
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I think a few NM's for them to see will act as a decent deterrant as far as them trying to attack us. But I do agree we don't want to provoke them. One rule in civ is that you never want to get in a war until you are ready.

	24-03-2003 01:01									#34
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan I think a few NM's for them to see will act as a decent deterrant as far as them trying to attack us. But I do agree we don't want to provoke them. One rule in civ is that you never want to get in a war until you are ready.

I agree completely with this, don't show any (if possible) units or military might to the other teams. THEY are the ones close to each other, and we can just expand in our own corner, until we are ready to interfere in the west.

	24-03-2003 08:11									#35
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I'm confused...why do folks think war neccessarily involves the immediate taking and removal of Persian cities?

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...45&pagenumber=3

Note my latest post. Everyone seems to be under the impression that war with Persia means "Go forth and smash cities NOW!" We have Numidian MERCS, people. As in, Archer and Hoplite Swirl! We don't NEED to take Persian cities- we just need to force them to guard every improvement with a spear (warriors aren't likely to win) and every settler with 2 spears (because that's too big a risk early on to entrust to just one spear.)

India, from its position, will see Persia's weakness and do our dirty work for us, particularly if our diplomats do their best to portray Persia as reckless madmen on a warpath (and they DID pick a Civ that specializes in early war....)

5 or 6 Mercs will slow us down some if we build them all at once, but why do we even need to do that? Build em in pairs, send em down, keep Apolytonia building settlers, mix workers, warriors, partridges in pear trees, or whatever else we like with City 2 (and City 3 shouldn't be that far behind City 2, I'm hoping- we built that granary for a reason, right?) and we continue onward. A massive war effort to KILL Persia would be damaging. A minor war effort to cripple Persia and make them look like the sickly gazelle in the herd for India's lions....

Free your mind, and the rest will follow.

	24-03-2003 08:23									#36
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If they really are building their city where they say they are, we probalby don't want to go down there and interfere with them... looks like they are slowing themselves down enough already, or have completely awful terrain to work with.

Too many Mercs at the start will slow us down in comparison to the rest of the world. If Persia is already shooting themselves in the foot, we just stand to slow down the weakest at the cost of weakening ourselves. Nothing really to be gained by it.

	24-03-2003 08:43									#37
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The problem at the moment is that CDG got to India before we were able to. We don't know what kind of lies CDG has told GCA about us. They may be close, they may not be.

Until we find out more, we have no idea at all how receptive GCA would be on a seemingly unjustified war on their "friend". We cannot assume that GCA will jump to our aid just because CDG are an irrational bunch.

	24-03-2003 08:44									#38
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Maybe there's iron there.

	24-03-2003 08:51									#39
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Could be, but it's still a low food site until they can get irrigation down there, which will slow them down in comparison to us.

	24-03-2003 09:01									#40
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CDG is just laying claim to the land to prevent further Northward expansion by GCA. This should be an indicator that things are not going to well with them if they are worried about GCA 'claiming' desert!

	26-03-2003 04:04									#41
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quote: CDG is just laying claim to the land to prevent further Northward expansion by GCA. This should be an indicator that things are not going to well with them if they are worried about GCA 'claiming' desert!

I think thats likely too, and I imagine GCA knows it as well. And Im sure us mentioning in the chat that that site is what they plan to be their next city doesnt make them feel too comfortable with CDG at the moment.