25-03-2003 10:59									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 BUT MOST PEOPLE JUST DONT HAVE ENOUGH INTEREST TO TAKE ALL THAT TIME TO SEE IT.

If most people don't have interest in it, WHY DO YOU WANT CNN TO SHOW IT?

Look, let's look at the facts:
1) The material in question is readily available, both online and on alternate networks
2) CNN is frequently on display in public areas (schools, TVs in malls/stores, etc)
3) Children frequently watch TV without parental supervision and could be caused great trauma by being shown the footage
4) There is absolutely nothing newsworthy about the corpses and carnage, aside from shock value that the shameful left want everyone to see in a misguided attempt to get more people to oppose the war

	25-03-2003 11:01									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Sigh. I can't convince him, he can't convince me. I propose we end the debate.

What is this, a white flag?

	25-03-2003 11:01									#63
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While the idea of showing corpses on TV does nothing for me, I do admit that it would probably be best for the news channels to show them, edited maybe, with a warning...

I don't really think it's right to show pic after pic of the "strike" on Baghdad, without showing some of the consequences of that, whether it is the "collateral damage" in the blast area, or what have you.

War is hell, and no one should ideally have to face it, but people have to understand what they're signing off on here...

I don't think coddling is going to help anyone. We, the West, were coddled up until 9-11, and then we saw the truth. Let's not get wrapped up in our delusions again.

	25-03-2003 11:01									#64
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quote: but because I think they are educational regarding what human beings can do to each other.

Then show it in schools. Don't pollute the airwaves with it.

How do you propose showing it? "Btw, people, here are some pictures of dead, bloody Americans". Yeah... right. Then everyone would start complaining about CNN showing gratuitous violence for no reason (except maybe ratings).

	25-03-2003 11:02									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Don't pollute the "clean" networks with carnage, you're just going to drive people away from watching it. And apathy is far more dangerous...

Interesting - the "clean" networks are the morally upright ones for hiding the truth. I don't think people would be driven away from watching it - look at 911.

It's like the German attitude to the holocaust. We won't make people feel bad about what we're doing to the Jews so we won't talk about it.

Sick.

	25-03-2003 11:02									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Asher If most people don't have interest in it, WHY DO YOU WANT CNN TO SHOW IT?

I said "ENOUGH". It changes the meaning

quote: 3) Children frequently watch TV without parental supervision and could be caused great trauma by being shown the footage

Children simply shouldnt be watching the 'Adult' version of CNN. They should watch some childrens news network. (Please dont say "Well thats CNN!!!" )

quote: 4) There is absolutely nothing newsworthy about the corpses and carnage, aside from shock value that the shameful left want everyone to see in a misguided attempt to get more people to oppose the war

Ah, so are you saying if people saw what the bombs are doing, they would oppose war?

Maybe they'd be happy were killing the "terrorists". Its their belief......But to convinently leave out the facts of the war is making it all biased.

	25-03-2003 11:03									#67
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quote: Then everyone would start complaining about CNN showing gratuitous violence for no reason (except maybe ratings).

Well, they already broadcast a live firefight... That had a high potential for gratuitous violence, I'd say.

	25-03-2003 11:04									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What is this, a white flag?

Nope.

Here are the facts:

You haven't convinced me to your side.
I haven't convinced you to my side.

I can go on as long as you want (or until I must sleep). You should see me in some other threads

	25-03-2003 11:05									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Interesting - the "clean" networks are the morally upright ones for hiding the truth.

Interesting spin by someone without an argument.
They're not hiding the truth, they're telling us plainly when people are killed. They're just not forcing us to watch them all die, because most of us are revolted by that and don't want to see it.

quote: I don't think people would be driven away from watching it - look at 911.

I didn't see too many corpses in 9-11, did you?

quote: It's like the German attitude to the holocaust.

For a second there I thought you were referring to the idiots who appeased Hitler, like you appease Iraq.

	25-03-2003 11:05									#70
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quote: Originally posted by cinch While the idea of showing corpses on TV does nothing for me, I do admit that it would probably be best for the news channels to show them, edited maybe, with a warning... I don't really think it's right to show pic after pic of the "strike" on Baghdad, without showing some of the consequences of that, whether it is the "collateral damage" in the blast area, or what have you. War is hell, and no one should ideally have to face it, but people have to understand what they're signing off on here... I don't think coddling is going to help anyone. We, the West, were coddled up until 9-11, and then we saw the truth. Let's not get wrapped up in our delusions again.

	25-03-2003 11:05									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: but because I think they are educational regarding what human beings can do to each other. Then show it in schools. Don't pollute the airwaves with it. How do you propose showing it? "Btw, people, here are some pictures of dead, bloody Americans". Yeah... right. Then everyone would start complaining about CNN showing gratuitous violence for no reason (except maybe ratings).

Adults are the ones who need educating. I like this, "don't pollute our streets with it"; whilst your government rains fire and brimstone down on civilians and "pollutes" their streets with blood and gore.

I've watched someone die - I know what it's like. Everyone should - for the simple reason that they should know what they are doing when they agree to have others killed.

Sick.

	25-03-2003 11:06									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Nope. Here are the facts: You haven't convinced me to your side. I haven't convinced you to my side.

Oh come on, it's obvious what happened to your argument.

You've even fell to the point of talking about "Adult CNN" and "Kids CNN"

	25-03-2003 11:07									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Interesting spin by someone without an argument. They're not hiding the truth, they're telling us plainly when people are killed. They're just not forcing us to watch them all die, because most of us are revolted by that and don't want to see it.

I suspect most people would be interested in what were doing to Iraq. I support footage of dead bodies, or living conditions, or collapsing buildings.....And then let the people decide.

quote: I didn't see too many corpses in 9-11, did you?

But it was still horrifying. It shocked America into reality (for a while).

quote: For a second there I thought you were referring to the idiots who appeased Hitler, like you appease Iraq.

ASHER has commited a......RED HERRING!

	25-03-2003 11:07									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm sure I'm not alone, in your righteous ill-planned idea to show the full horrors of war on TV you're forgetting you're going to probably alienate and turn off far more people than you fascinate. And the people who become fascinated by it need to seek help.

When I was growing up, we used to see some scenes from the Vietnam War on the news, and believe me there were some pretty graphic images being aired then. And people didn't become fascinated, they became disgusted. That's one reason, a very big one, why the anti-war movement grew and eventually put a stop to the whole thing. And that's why CNN et al won't air it this time.

	25-03-2003 11:07									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Oh come on, it's obvious what happened to your argument. You've even fell to the point of talking about "Adult CNN" and "Kids CNN"

Can't debate the issue, so instead we resort to "Your argument just fell apart "?

How nice, Asher.

In fact, that IS a debate fallacy......Can't remember what its called though.

But instead of forming ANY arguement, your simply saying my argument fell apart and leaving it at that. Since its not logical in ANY way......You lose the debate.

	25-03-2003 11:09									#76
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quote: Well, they already broadcast a live firefight... That had a high potential for gratuitous violence, I'd say.

I have no doubt if there was footage of Iraqi blood and gore, CNN would immediately turn away.

	25-03-2003 11:09									#77
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Agathon, at first my opinion of you sunk to new lows when you referred to the police as "pigs" in the protest thread.

And now you've gotten to the point where you want to cause trauma to millions of people because you want them all to be anti-war. And even that logic doesn't make sense.

I've seen the carnage, the full 6-minute long Al Jazeera clip they played. You know what it did to me?

It pissed me off. It made me even more pro-war. I was disgusted that the Iraqis could shoot American soldiers in the forehead, execution style.

Perhaps you should think through your position, the gruesome deaths of Americans shown on TV would probably enrage Americans into an even harsher pro-war stance. You'd instill feelings of anger and revenge more than guilt and sadness.

	25-03-2003 11:10									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Interesting spin by someone without an argument. They're not hiding the truth, they're telling us plainly when people are killed. They're just not forcing us to watch them all die, because most of us are revolted by that and don't want to see it.

Yes but the likes of you are all for this "revolting" thing. I have an argument - it's a simple one - "people should know what they are signing up for when the question of war is at stake, because war is a great, perhaps the greatest evil we know." In a democracy where the people are ultimately responsible for electing the government they should make informed choices.

quote: I didn't see too many corpses in 9-11, did you?

I saw plenty of folks jumping out of windows - as if the main event wasn't gross enough.

QUOTE]For a second there I thought you were referring to the idiots who appeased Hitler, like you appease Iraq. [/QUOTE]

Yeah - the tories who thought he was an ally against the communists.

	25-03-2003 11:11									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It pissed me off. It made me even more pro-war. I was disgusted that the Iraqis could shoot American soldiers in the forehead, execution style.

CONGRATULATIONS!!! The bodies SOLIDIFIED your opinion.

Now showing the US doing the same to Iraqis might weaken it. But maybe not.

quote: Perhaps you should think through your position, the gruesome deaths of Americans shown on TV would probably enrage Americans into an even harsher pro-war stance.

I'm not after this so people can be anti-war. Simply so the news can come out.

They can form the opinions they wish to have. If seeing Americans/Iraqis solidifies an opinion....Great! More power to them.

	25-03-2003 11:12									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 CONGRATULATIONS!!! The bodies SOLIDIFIED your opinion.

My opinion was already very solid.

quote: Now showing the US doing the same to Iraqis might weaken it. But maybe not.

Hell no, the video have made me think of the Iraqi soldiers as inhumane. They deserve death.

	25-03-2003 11:14									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Asher My opinion was already very solid.

And now its even more solid.

quote: Hell no, the video have made me think of the Iraqi soldiers as inhumane. They deserve death.

As long as networks dont just show either Iraqis being killed (which would cause an anti-war bias) or Americans being killed (which would cause a pro-war bias), I'm all for it.

	25-03-2003 11:15									#82
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quote: Yeah - the tories who thought he was an ally against the communists.

Hey, genius, Nevile Chamberlain was the head of the Labor government, and Churchill, the major conservative force in the middle of the century, resigned his post over appeasement. Please, get your facts right for once.

	25-03-2003 11:16									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 And now its even more solid.

It was completely unnecessary.

I understand that you two like to think of yourselves as superior to Americans (you're both philosopher-type people, no surprise), but I think you underestimate Americans' understanding of what death is.

Get off your high horse, quit assuming everyone is dumber than you are.

Americans know what death is, they don't need to see graphic pictures of it. The only purpose they serve is to shock and disgust people, in a vain attempt to make them anti-war.

	25-03-2003 11:17									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Agathon, at first my opinion of you sunk to new lows when you referred to the police as "pigs" in the protest thread.

I'm supremely indifferent to your opinion of me. One should only value the opinions of the informed and the honest. I called them pigs because they threatened peaceful protesters - I was there. None of us were doing anything other than listen to speeches. And if you bothered to read, I've praised the Toronto police in other threads for their handling of previous marches. It's a strange fetish I have - when people bahve badly I call them bad names, and when they are good I call them good names.

quote: And now you've gotten to the point where you want to cause trauma to millions of people because you want them all to be anti-war. And even that logic doesn't make sense.

I have no idea of whether opinion would change if such things were shown. I just think people should be informed.

quote: I've seen the carnage, the full 6-minute long Al Jazeera clip they played. You know what it did to me? It pissed me off. It made me even more pro-war. I was disgusted that the Iraqis could shoot American soldiers in the forehead, execution style.

Fine. I am also disgusted. I am also disgusted at the grotesque spectacle of civilian casualties. These people had done nothing, they were non-combatants. War is hell - that is why it should be a last resort. And here it plainly isn't.

quote: Perhaps you should think through your position, the gruesome deaths of Americans shown on TV would probably enrage Americans into an even harsher pro-war stance. You'd instill feelings of anger and revenge more than guilt and sadness.

You know - I find it odd that you think that my argument for the press to inform the public so that they can make an informed judgement (whatever that may be) is an argument for anti-war propaganda. It isn't. And you pride yourself on being able to argue - sheesh.

	25-03-2003 11:18									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Asher you underestimate Americans' understanding of what death is.

No. When you live in a country that has never seen its cities burnt to the ground or someone shot dead by the government right in front of your or heard stories of some "Counter-Revolutionary" being killed, you can't quite understand death.

When you havent see someone being raped (I haven't, but I know those who have) because they have another opinion, or houses burning with people in them......You can't understand death.

Most Americans dont have this experience. Most americans dont understand death very well. Even after Sep11.

	25-03-2003 11:20									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Asher 3) Children frequently watch TV without parental supervision and could be caused great trauma by being shown the footage

I was quite young when I saw clips of the atrocities and carnage in Vietnam, I dealt with it. Hiding people from the horrors of war deprives them of a full grasp of it's reality.

	25-03-2003 11:20									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I'm supremely indifferent to your opinion of me.

It's telling that you wrote a whole paragraph about how you don't care.

quote: And you pride yourself on being able to argue - sheesh.

Say what?
You're the "philosopher", I've never said anything about my ability to argue.

I speak what's on my mind, I have better things to do to waste years of my life as you have in the trivial fields such as philosophy which find new ways to bicker about sock color.

	25-03-2003 11:21									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Willem I was quite young when I saw clips of the atrocities and carnage in Vietnam, I dealt with it.

Hey, I know people who survived a 14 storey fall. Therefore we can assume that it's safe to do so.

	25-03-2003 11:21									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Yeah - the tories who thought he was an ally against the communists. Hey, genius, Nevile Chamberlain was the head of the Labor government, and Churchill, the major conservative force in the middle of the century, resigned his post over appeasement. Please, get your facts right for once.

Ah my lad, it is you who should be more careful. Appeasement was in large part a product of the British upper class's sympathy for fascism. Of course that is not the whole story, but it is a significant part of it. Ishiguro wrote a novel about this, "The Remains of the Day" (a good read actually). You can also read the contemporary journalism of George Orwell for more information - the defenders of privilege loved Hitler - they saw him as a solid anti Bolshevik. Why do you think figures like Ezra Pound and TS Eliot were fascist sympathisers.

Anyway, have a nice day. My wife has come home and wants to use the computer. So it looks like you get the last word.

	25-03-2003 11:22									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Then everyone would start complaining about CNN showing gratuitous violence for no reason (except maybe ratings).

Truth should be a good enough reason.