29-07-2003 03:28									#91
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That's pretty nice civman

	29-07-2003 18:45									#92
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I suppose the iron island could be Taiwan, and the bigger island maybe Japan or maybe something else (we need to explore it more to be able to say anything).

Assuming the lost civs are all on one continent, it should be named...well, what are the civs?

Egypt, Ottomans, Arabia, France. I suppose then they would be Europe and the mideast... Perhaps we could call the continent the "Missing Lands," because they represent IRL the lands between Apolyton (Carthage) and it's neighbors, and really belong between Africa and Persia. Since we control a good deal of persia and have designs on the rest, I think then we have valid claims on all of the lost civs except france because our nation must stay contiguous

	29-07-2003 19:29									#93
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Should we rename the captured CDG cities?

	30-07-2003 21:44									#94
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Almost certainly.
We should wipe out their evil memory from our minds

	31-07-2003 11:51									#95
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OK then. I propose "Empty Bottle" for "Cuido de Alcohol" and "Twilight City" for "Possumopolis" (because this city is close to Heart of Darkness).

	21-08-2003 06:39									#96
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Have any of my suggested names gained common usage? I guess not .

Here's an idea: If someone more skilled than me in graphics could make a black and white map from scratch that reflects the shape of our continent and labels it with my names, we could send it the GCA and CFC and propose that it be the official Lexicon of Greater Asia (or Afro-Asia).

	21-08-2003 06:51									#97
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civman, we are using these names. We are just not settling cities very fast at the moment. None at all, AAMOF.

The CDG cities other than on the choke-point are to be moved. Should we rename them to something better simply to disband them later?

There was a thread for renaming the choke-point city. Equilibrium was overwhelmingly favoured.

	22-08-2003 01:18									#98
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I think we should send the map civman made to GCA and CFC. If they are cool with it, then we adopt it. Although we can't share it with the other Civ's, even when we meet them, until they get a WM through some other means. Which brings up a point; we should make sure GCA and CFC don't give up our WM to the other teams. They may be offered tech, gold, alliances for it. We should have a long term stance on the issue with GCA and CFC.

	22-08-2003 01:54									#99
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We can't send any map to them until after the war. Remember?

	22-08-2003 05:57									#100
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The point of having my map replaced with a simple outline map was so that assuming all the Afro-Asian civs know the general shape of the continent it would reveal nothing. So how would sending it break an agreement?

I'm working on an outline map now; I have the outline creation done but I still have to do a lot of labeling.

EDIT: Done with it. Here's a miniaturized version (for the full version remove the "small" from its URL)

Last edited by civman2000 on 22-08-2003 at 06:29

	22-08-2003 08:03									#101
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civman, so far India and China are ignorant even of the shape of the land masses of each other. We should not give them what would essentially be directions on where to go in exploring. Also, if they lack embasies, which I think they do, then they are also unaware of where each other's capitals are.

Any kind of map given to them will give information to them. We have agreed not to do that. Unless... we do a map for CFC that contains their lands and blacked out GCA. We give GCA a map with blacked out CFC. That could be done.

One other thing, does GCA know where the second choke is, roughly? In that case , we would black out from the old CDG too, for them.

One other thing, such a map is all too easy for someone from a vanquished civ to carry with them to a new civ across the water (read GCA members joining CGN after we eliminate GCA and make contact with the other side). For that reason alone I say NO! Not even rough maps that show them anything they do not know.

	22-08-2003 11:15									#102
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I thought that CDG traded maps with GCA (pre-war), so GCA knows about the choke point. GCA had adavnced to within 2 tiles of CFC's Capitol previously, so they've seen most of CFC's territory. It's not hard to guess what lies beyond CFC to it's West and to the East of GCA. The map that civman made is not very revealing at all. Besides, when we do finally go to war with GCA, will we be willing to share our map with CFC? Or just give them screen shots of GCA's land holdings?

	22-08-2003 11:39									#103
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How do we know CDG traded maps with GCA?

No matter, there are things unkown to both CFC and GCA. Even crude drawings will give them information they do not have, and in the case of GCA, we do not want them to have.

	22-08-2003 11:58									#104
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CDG and GCA were supposed to be the best of budies back then, Allies in GCA's mind then. I cannot possibly see how theres anythin on civmans map that GCA could use. But, its not that big of a deal to me, this would be more of a game enhancement for all teams, to add an extra dimension to it. But if you are dead set against it, i will not fight for it.

	22-08-2003 14:11									#105
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VERY nice map! Though I agree with the posters above: do not give anything out to them.

I wonder: is there a tool that can help you create topograhic-like maps easily? If so, we can make an Apolytonian Atlas of the World.

	22-08-2003 14:56									#106
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree CDG and GCA were supposed to be the best of budies back then, Allies in GCA's mind then. I cannot possibly see how theres anythin on civmans map that GCA could use. But, its not that big of a deal to me, this would be more of a game enhancement for all teams, to add an extra dimension to it. But if you are dead set against it, i will not fight for it.

BF. I appreciate that.

To be honest, I have been in MP situations where my opponents lack of information resulted directly in their defeat.

I may be biased, but if I am biased on the side of victory, I will not mind.

	22-08-2003 17:33									#107
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Just for the record, I am no graphic artist or cartographer.
I was simply bored one night, and started to name some of the features on our map.
Civman’s post reminded me that I started to do it.

Here it is …. It is kind of large, so I have made it a link instead of an image.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Hot_Enamel/map.jpg

And here is a small map, which I was using to explain 3 features I named.


Wild Dog Plains – In memory of our first warrior casualty – Betahound
White Sands – All that gunpowder must be somewhere
Apolyton Jungle – Our Traditional Home
Worm Jungle – Named after the worm like mountain range
Mt Nipple – The centre of our Jungle
Big Bend River – Cause it bends
BigFrees Thumb Bay – Leaving his mark on our world
Trips Eye – PTWDG reference
GhengisFarbs Isthmus – Final resting place of the last Possum King
Mongoose Abyss – What else could we call it

1. These are only suggestions – I don’t care if we decide to use them or not
2. I think we should name all of our graphic features that we have presence on
. ie. Give CDG & CFC the option to name their lands
3. I think we have the rights to name the 2 islands we found.
4. We need to get Aro back to do a proper map. He posted recently in the Demo game thread…Is he a member of the PTWISDG ?

	22-08-2003 19:10									#108
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It shouldn't be too hard to edit my map to eliminate the regions the other civs don't know about (ie show them Norht Africa plus either East or West Asia). In fact, I think I'll do that this afternoon.

BTW, where could I find a map of the two islands? Looking at the minimap, I guess they could be named Taiwan (north) and Japan or maybe Hainan (south)

One interesting idea is that we could have competing lexicographies and we could have some sort of roleplay political struggle between them...

	23-08-2003 05:15									#109
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Proposed names:
North chokepoint: Isthmus of Khwarism
South chokepoint: Isthmus of Bengal

Several new versions or my map (again larger versions can be gotten by removing the "small"):

CFC-friendly (No East Asia):


GCA-friendly (No West Asia):


Political (dark areas are settled, light areas are claimed, part of border agreement, or almost certain to be settled by a certain civ):


The weird one (political map on a realworld map):

Last edited by civman2000 on 23-08-2003 at 06:42

	23-08-2003 05:47									#110
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That's all pretty cool CM.

I've always loved geography stuff like this.

Wouldn't Arabia and such be under our control? (Spanning from North Africa to Persia)

	23-08-2003 06:28									#111
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AFAIK, Arabia isn't under our control because the Germans are playing as Arabia, and to claim we control the lands of the 2nd-most-powerful nation in the world would cause no end of trouble.

As for the CFC-friendly map... any thought to the idea of posting a big "CENSORED" sign over their land? (BTW, wouldn't our agreement with GCA to not show their map to CFC be voided when we declare war on them?)

Edit: As for the political map, maybe we could call the southern area of what was CDG "Afghanistan"? (The Goatse/Algalord corridor is what I had in mind. Obviously, Elucidium would be part of "Persia.")

Last edited by Vlad Antlerkov on 23-08-2003 at 06:34

	23-08-2003 06:41									#112
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quote: Wouldn't Arabia and such be under our control? (Spanning from North Africa to Persia)

As Vlad said, Arabia is in the game as are the Ottomans and Egypt, so we can't claim those areas. Or perhaps when we meet them we can use "connecting our lands" as a pretext for war...

On Afghanistan: Maybe, thouhg with the exception of Mongolia, all the names I gave were for major geographic features at least to some extent. (or civ locations), not pure relative location. But it is a good idea, I will likely put it in my next edition (from now on I think I'll only update the political map). I also plan to add in the islands, though of course the version shared with CFC and/or GCA couldn't include them.

EDIT: Updated. Afghanistan and the Islands should be in the political map in my earlier post (link in my sig)

	23-08-2003 21:10									#113
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civman's Political Map 1.11:
Afghanistan label moved south
Mongolia replaced with Sinkiang
Version number added to top left corner



Future changes:
Rename Red Sea?
Name Northern Ocean and/or bays?
Name southern Great sea bay?
Rename islands?

	23-08-2003 22:46									#114
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Suggestions:

• Rename Afghanistan to Pakistan - after all, Pakistan borders the Indian Ocean (the part named Arabic sea, really).
  
• Rename "Great Sea" to "Sea of Everest" - after all, it is in the middle of all the bordering countries.
  
• Move Turkestan to the East on the map; where it used to be, add the name "Kirgistan", bordering Turkestan and Sinkiang.
  
• Add name "Siberian Sea" to the Northern Ocean (Siberia borders Turkestan, Kirgistan and Sinkiang).
  
• Add name "Uzbekian Bay" for water inlet north of chokepoint - between Turkestan and Kirgistan.
  
• Add name "Caspian Sea" for sea west of Heart of Darkness (bordering Persia and Turkestan).
  
• Replace "Taiwan" with "Japan". Replace "Japan" with "Sachalin" (lots of ice and some resources in reality, and Japan is bigger than Sachalin). Replace "Taiwan Strait" with "Yellow Sea" (between China and Japan).
  
• Name the northern chokepoint after a Himalaya pass (don't know which one, though).
  
• Add something like African Jungle for the northern part of the Sahara peninsula.
  
• Add name "African Ocean" for the NorthEastern part of the ocean.
  
• Use names like "Hawaii" or "America" for anything we find sailing to the West.
  

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 23-08-2003 at 22:53

	24-08-2003 07:06									#115
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EDIT: Big oops! It seems I pressed "edit" rather than "reply with quote". The Forum apparently still allows others to edit someone's post! I'm sorry!!
I was able to salvage most of the original post, though.

-- BFM

-----------------------------------------------------

Thanks for all the suggestions!

quote: Rename Afghanistan to Pakistan - after all, Pakistan borders the Indian Ocean (the part named Arabic sea, really).

Pakistan is a modern creation and until the 1940s was considered by everyone to be part of India. Maybe the northern area of India proper (not GCA's Persian lands) could be Pakistan, but I'll keep it out. However, I like the idea of the sea Afghanistan is on being the Great Sea

quote: Rename "Great Sea" to "Sea of Everest" - after all, it is in the middle of all the bordering countries.

Everest? What RW "Everest" is there with a particularly central location?

quote: Move Turkestan to the East on the map; where it used to be, add the name "Kirgistan", bordering Turkestan and Sinkiang.

Partially just my whim, but I think that Persia is small and geographically united enough to merit no more divisions than core Persia and Afghanistan. However, Turkestan being further east does fit with my idea of the chokepoint being the Khwarism region (east of the Aral Sea IRL). Actually, on a second thought it doesn't really: Asian east-west is opposite of RL, so Khwarism should be the eastern edge of Turkestan, not the western.

quote: Add name "Uzbekian Bay" for water inlet north of chokepoint - between Turkestan and Kirgistan.

I was going to do it until I thought of Aral Sea, which is a body of water instead of land IRL and fits with the Caspian to its east.

quote: Add name "Siberian Sea" to the Northern Ocean (Siberia borders Turkestan, Kirgistan and Sinkiang).

I don't like naming an ocean for a major land area, but I can't think of a good name for the ocean still...It ideally would be something bordering RL Norht and West Persia, Carthage and the Sahara (I'm not gonna try for these though), and Turkestan...Actually Caspian SEa would fit the borders well, but I don't like mapping a sea onto an ocean, and then I have no name for the eastern bay...

quote: Add name "Caspian Sea" for sea west of Heart of Darkness (bordering Persia and Turkestan).

Very good suggestion.

quote: Replace "Taiwan" with "Japan". Replace "Japan" with "Sachalin" (lots of ice and some resources in reality, and Japan is bigger than Sachalin). Replace "Taiwan Strait" with "Yellow Sea" (between China and Japan).

Taiwan will stay, but I like the Sakhalin idea. I was always uneasy about calling it Japan. For now I'm keeping Taiwan strait, but I might rename that and maybe teh South China Sea too later.

quote: Add something like African Jungle for the northern part of the Sahara peninsula.

I've always disliked the way that Morocco was all jungle and would have preferred to have something like Nigeria, but then the Sahara would have to be over there and there's nothing that would justify that geographically. As for adding Nigeria to the north, I think that would make that area a buit cramped and overlabeled.

quote: Add name "African Ocean" for the NorthEastern part of the ocean.

I don't like using a RW name for something that does not exist IRL. Maybe the Atlantic (Morocco being South Africa) would work, but for now it's jsut the northern Indian...if the ocean to the east of morocco were on the map it wouldn't look as isolated.

quote: Use names like "Hawaii" or "America" for anything we find sailing to the West.

Great idea!

Again, thanks for all the suggestions even though I didn't like all of them.

civman's Political Map 1.15:
Red Sea renamed Arabian Sea
Caspian, Aral, and North China Seas named.
Siam named (I wanted Indochina but it wouldn't fit!)
Japan renamed Sakhalin
Japanese Sea rename Yellow Sea

Map in my above post should be updated.

	24-08-2003 07:20									#116
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A bit on how I make my maps if you're interested/want to make similar maps/want to edit mine and have it look coherent:
1. Take minimap from big turn summary thread (not the individual ones becuase the minimaps there are usually jpegs and smudged up).
2. Magnify the minimap 885% vertically and 854% horizontally.
3. Outline the cost three times: a black line right one it, a white line inside it, and a blue line outside it. All are with Paint's thickest square brush. After doing all three I go back over the black one because it is often covered largely by the other too (I draw sloppily).
4. I didn't do it the first time but for doing the other continent or other new lands: outline the settled lands in the color they will be shown as.
5. Fill in all of the outlined areas (blue ocean, white land)
6. Add labels. All are Arial Black italics. The title is size 20, subcontinents (east and west asia and north africa) and oceans are 16, other sea areas and major land areas (islands or civs ie India carthage etc) are 14, other land areas as well as the "created by" line are 12, and city names as well as the version number in the top left corner are 9.

BTW, I do everything in Paint.

	24-08-2003 08:23									#117
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Please allow me to "switch topic" and urge more members to come up with more suggestions for naming Military Units and Workers.

In the next few turns we have Numidian Mercenary, Workers, Medieval Infantry and Catapults built. We need names urgently. Everybody please contribute. Whoever wants to have units named after them, please do not be shy.

I am not sure about what others feel, but I am really honoured to have a worker named after me ... and I can tell that he's mining 7 of Apolyton

	24-08-2003 12:21									#118
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I want a Cat named after my favorite family pet that died when I was a child. His name was Smokey. He was a dog. It's a little ironic that I want a Cat named after my dog.

	24-08-2003 13:43									#119
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quote: Thanks for all the suggestions! . Everest? What RW "Everest" is there with a particularly central location?

I was thinking of the Mount Everest. It'll be ironic to switch (invert) the name of this feature into a sea for this game.

quote: . Partially just my whim, but I think that Persia is small and geographically united enough to merit no more divisions than core Persia and Afghanistan.

It's not to divide up Persia - it is to name the region between Persia and Sinkiang.
Turkestan should IMHO border the Caspian Sea - not the Aral Sea (but I'm looking at a modern map to draw this conclusion).

quote: I was going to do it until I thought of Aral Sea, which is a body of water instead of land IRL and fits with the Caspian to its east.

Good suggestion.

quote: Taiwan will stay

Why not Japan? Much more important in history than Taiwan. And it's closer to Sachalin and the sea fits the name Yellow Sea better that way.

Great work!

-- BFM

for easy reference:

	24-08-2003 17:52									#120
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quote: I was thinking of the Mount Everest. It'll be ironic to switch (invert) the name of this feature into a sea for this game.

Intersting idea, but the sea's most salient feature is (IMHO) its wide spread and central location, which Everest lacks. Also, given that the Himalayas are already on the map, it would seem inapropriate to have a separate Everest.

quote: It's not to divide up Persia - it is to name the region between Persia and Sinkiang. Turkestan should IMHO border the Caspian Sea - not the Aral Sea (but I'm looking at a modern map to draw this conclusion).

Right now it is between Persia and Sinkiang. Moving it further east would make it part of Persia: those lands were originally CDG's. BTW, Turkestan borders both seas. I think you've been thinking of the modern country of Turkmenistan. Turkestan covers all of those former Soviet central asian "istans", including yoour proposed Kirgistan. However, it still might be a good idea to move it east so it's on both seas...but then I need a name for west of the chokepoint...and geographically there's extremely little between Sinkiang and Turkestan...maybe Siberia?

quote: Why not Japan? Much more important in history than Taiwan. And it's closer to Sachalin and the sea fits the name Yellow Sea better that way.

Hmmm...I see your point.

Changes in next version (in the range 1.17-1.19) (?x? means there is doubt about x):
Taiwan->Japan
Strait of Taiwan->Japanese Sea (Yellow Sea is actually between China and Korea)
Yellow Sea->Sea of Okhotsk
?Turkestan->?Siberia??
?Add Turkestan label west of chokepoint?
?label chokepoints Khwarism and Bengal?

BTW, if you disagree with some of my decisions feel free to edit my maps and make your own.