09-05-2003 01:35									#61
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

he will lose power

	09-05-2003 01:43									#62
	Full PM-box? Change here!

If the marshal "suggests" citizens for being in STAVKA, the organization becomes nothing more than a rubber stamp for the Marshal. We're here to watch over the marshal and what he does, doesn't it seem wrong to have the watchers in debt to the Marshal?

Checks and Balances people!

	09-05-2003 02:00									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

the Stavka we'll have to meet in private to discus it

	09-05-2003 02:59									#64
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by H Tower If the marshal "suggests" citizens for being in STAVKA, the organization becomes nothing more than a rubber stamp for the Marshal. We're here to watch over the marshal and what he does, doesn't it seem wrong to have the watchers in debt to the Marshal? Checks and Balances people!

Wait a minute this is the Soviet Union! Of course I want my political hacks on the Stavka!

Checks and Balances? That sounds awful reactionary to me comrade.

When and how will we discuss in private?

(Rubs his hands together as he smells a really nasty political infight.)

	09-05-2003 04:13									#65
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And I want to test out my political hacks BEFORE I appoint them to Fronts or Minister positions.

And you and I both know that the reigns of power for fronts and ministers is at my pleasure.

I would however like them to be proven first!

	09-05-2003 04:24									#66
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Am I on STAVKA?

And what does STAVKA stand for anyway?

*hides ignorance*

	09-05-2003 05:06									#67
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by El Awrence Am I on STAVKA?

The short answer is no, and as a minister I dont think you qualify but if you continue to support me as the Marshall I shall consider nominating you and bending the rules of course.

quote: Originally posted by El Awrence And what does STAVKA stand for anyway? *hides ignorance*

They are the committee that makes sure we conduct the war properly. They have the power to remove me if I am not doing well with the war. So theoretically they are the five votes that determine "big picture" decisions.

So how we handled Leningrad really IMHO should have been decided in committee by Stavka, because the decisions made affected several fronts and could have a major impact on the war.

Thats my opinion anyway. Im not sure what the acronym STAVKA actually stands for .

I guess I could look it up but Im helping my kid with homework right now.

	09-05-2003 05:50									#68
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Marshal is responsible for the conduct of the war, STAVKA is responsible for the reliablity of the Marshal, so no, STAVKA was not responsible for the defense of Leningrad

	09-05-2003 05:57									#69
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 That leaves a vacancy or vacancies on Stavka. (STYOM is out for right now)

Why is STYOM out anyways? It is not a requirement to be a government minister or commander to be on STAVKA. Stop trying to alter STAVKA

	09-05-2003 06:14									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by H Tower Why is STYOM out anyways? It is not a requirement to be a government minister or commander to be on STAVKA. Stop trying to alter STAVKA

Because he was too busy in R/L.

In your opinion you feel the Marshall makes decisions and the Stavka mearly votes on whether to retain the Marshall or not.

Is that correct.?

OK who changes the Stavka?

Can the Marshall sack Stavka members?

He can sack Front Commanders and they are one in the same except for you and me.

This is somewhat confusing?

What if the Stavka voted me out and I said I sack them all at the same time?

Maybe we need a better system.

One where Im in charge with all my political hacks in Stavka. Then we wouldn't have these problems.

	09-05-2003 06:22									#71
	There is only a max of 5 stavka reps (full stop) Suffering from ads?

They are assigned the roll of voting in/out a marshal thus 5 not 4 so we don't get a deadlock vote.

Stavka members are also able to act in the absence of the marshal (not that is happening) and help the game move along. They effectively become co-codinators of the game though H-tower overall is effectively stalin and has control over the NKVD (threads).

In any case the only way to get into stavka is if someone officialy resigns their post in this thread then we hold a poll to fill the possition. ie STYOM is still in I aint seen a resignation form.

As for removing someone from stavka well, that only happens if the person disappears from the game for say a month or does something really bad, H-tower has the final say in this.

The Marshal cannot have any official say on the Stavka, they were voted in before the war and cannot change.

Comrades lets forget this Stavka stuff its not likely that the stavka is going to vote out a marshal as they are hard to get in the first place , conb has been filling in for Htower whilst he is on leave and both of them have done a fantastic job.

	09-05-2003 06:35									#72
	No sorry comrade Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by El Awrence Am I on STAVKA? And what does STAVKA stand for anyway? *hides ignorance*

Some one will have to step down for the spot to be revoted on.

Stavka stands for the supreme army headquarters If I find any exact s.t.a.v.k.a words I'll edit the post.

	09-05-2003 06:56									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Wait a minute here Comrade Pavlov, right now I AM the Marshall. Therfore it is my responsibility. When and IF H Tower comes back then he will be in charge again.

I think that remains to be determined.

Once in power sometimes it is hard to leave. And once out it is sometimes hard to come back.

Ok in your case with me just subbing for H, AM I on Stavka? How can I not be if Im the Marshall? And if STYOM is staying that makes six and your 5 members theory is out the window. And he did ask for a replacement because he didn't have time. PM him if you need that clarified.

And if Im not on Stavka, then you can't fire me. I dont have to listen to you.

Sounds like a ripe environment for political intrigue.......

And look at my signature Comrade, right now I AM THE RODINA!




And I am seriously questioning your loyalty to the Marshall, ME. Dont forget Comrade I have the power to send Front Commanders to the Gulag. I would be very carefull if I were you!

Last edited by conmcb25 on 09-05-2003 at 07:10

	09-05-2003 07:04									#74
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thank you for the enlightening news, Colwyn.

*plots propaganda demise of some STAVKA member to step into*

	09-05-2003 08:06									#75
	Put an end to popups!

Ahhhh comrades... how do you know that I'm really busy in RL, and not gathering up a band of Georgian "bodyguards" so as to effect a permanent change to STAVKA on my return to Moscow?

Seriously, RL isn't quite as busy as it was - plus the new Poly server seems to be communicating better with my PC now. So if I'm needed on STAVKA, I'm around. If it makes more sense to appoint a general to that role, that's acceptable (I was an emergency fill-in on STAVKA in the first place).

	09-05-2003 08:13									#76
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Comrades lets forget this Stavka stuff

This is the STAVKA HQ is it not?

I for one find shady back room politics intriguing , and it is one of the facets that sets RF apart from the other Demo games.

But Colwyn is quite right. The Marshal has no real influence on the STAVKA. They nominated themsevles at the very beginning, and they can only be replaced if they step down voluntarily or disapear.
While the Marshal cannot depose Ministers, because they are elected by the body politik, his power rests in his ability to commission (and decommisson) Front Commanders.
One thing brooks no clarification: Stavka can fire the Marshal.

	09-05-2003 08:28									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Ahhhh comrades... how do you know that I'm really busy in RL, and not gathering up a band of Georgian "bodyguards" so as to effect a permanent change to STAVKA on my return to Moscow? Seriously, RL isn't quite as busy as it was - plus the new Poly server seems to be communicating better with my PC now. So if I'm needed on STAVKA, I'm around. If it makes more sense to appoint a general to that role, that's acceptable (I was an emergency fill-in on STAVKA in the first place).

Well you said you were busy in RL last week when I sent you to the Gulag. Have you returned? Do you want to remain on Stavka? I think we are at the point where we need a definative answer one way or the other.

	09-05-2003 08:35									#78
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

OK lets hear opinions on this one:

When a Front Commander gets sent to the Gulag does he remain a member of Stavka?

Think about it when you go to the Gulag, YOU GO TO THE GULAG!

You aren't hanging around Moscow keeping an eye on the Marshall.

With that being said I dont think a Front Commander can be a Stavka member.

And since at least three members are Front Commanders I say we take nominations and get us some impartial Non-Front Commander Stavka Members.

And if STYOM is back, who is the odd man out in Stavka (Assuming Comrade Pavlov is right)

Is it Comrade H Tower or me?

Since Im the Marshall, it must be H Tower.

	09-05-2003 08:42									#79
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by H Tower The Marshal is responsible for the conduct of the war, STAVKA is responsible for the reliablity of the Marshal, so no, STAVKA was not responsible for the defense of Leningrad

Sorry H but I dont agree, here is from the first post the rules on how the PBEM would be played and this statement was under the Stavka responsibilities:

STAVKA(5) Council of the Marshal and all others for deciding Grand Manouvers.

I would consider a "Grand Manouver" what to do about Leningrad.

And the Stavka is composed of the Marshall and and the other Stavka members.

Since I am currently the Marshall and STYOM might be back who is the ODD MAN out?

	09-05-2003 09:16									#80
	Got spare money?

Listen to the words of our beloved founding father!

quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh STAVKA Council of the Marshal and all Front Commanders for deciding Grand Manouvers. Ability to oust the Marshal with a coup vote. Partcipation from entire non-playing goup here.

Stavka members are really only game orginizers, meant to keep the game running smoothly. However, imagine the pandemonium that would be caused if a marshal was allowed a seat on the Stavka. He could filibuster impeachment votes and so on.

quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh I'd like to see our first Marshal elected, changes would require a coup, (STAVKA votes to overthrow the marshal.) basically for unworthy leadership abilities.

You will note that FMK was never on Stavka while he was Marshal, and H Tower only was, because he was already on Stavka when we was named New Leader and Succesor to the throne by FMK. There are only 5 slots, they are absolute, if somebody steps down, submit your own nomination. However I do not think this was what FMK had originally intended.

	09-05-2003 09:21									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

What did FMK originally intend?

And if this is the way it is then the Marshall SHOULD NOT be part of Stavka. Therefore when HTower stepped up he should have given up his Stavka position.

So which is it.

Is the marshall on Stavka or not.

If not then H Tower is no longer on Stavka and we need nominations. But then membership precludes being Marshall.

	09-05-2003 09:26									#82
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Therefore when HTower stepped up he should have given up his Stavka position.

Yes, perhaps he should have, those were confusing times; the damage left in the wake of FMK's depature caused much damage, more that the Germans were ever capable of inflicting. But this in in the past, H Tower is no longer Marshal. We are talking about the present. I believe that FMK set a precident by his actions during his short tenure as marshal. Marshals should not be allowed to sit on stavka.

	09-05-2003 09:39									#83
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by EZRhino Yes, perhaps he should have, those were confusing times; the damage left in the wake of FMK's depature caused much damage, more that the Germans were ever capable of inflicting. But this in in the past, H Tower is no longer Marshal. We are talking about the present. I believe that FMK set a precident by his actions during his short tenure as marshal. Marshals should not be allowed to sit on stavka.

OK with that being said is H Tower on Stavka or not?

I say not. By stepping up he in effect gave up his Stavka seat. In the confusion the group did not realize this and therefore did not replace the Stavka member.
With that being said we need nominations for the empty Stavka position. And STYOM has to tell us if he is remaining on Stavka or not. If not we have two openings.

So Old Guy what is it? Are you staying or going?

	09-05-2003 10:40									#84
	Marshal on stavka? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I guess this is the big congestion point. Yes I concor that being a marshal does not automatically include you in the stavka.

However if nobody steps forward to be marshal (was a problem before.) the stavka had to nominates one of there own to do the job.

Htower is still on b/c effectively he's not a marshal at the moment so effectively the clerical work is up to scratch as things stand.

However ministers and front commanders can be on the stavka as well. Also a front commader canned by the Marshal (will need stavka support b/c the stavka if not happy about it will can the Marshal) is still on the stavka (call it his influence whether in moscow or not (gulag) only Stalin (htower) can permanently send people away (ban from thread).

In a nutshell Htower is Stalin (general secretary) with the power to eliminate anyone anytime, he cannot be touched unless we get forum admin rights off him.

The stavka act as Stalins enforcers assisting and keeping the game going and selecting a marshal.

The marshal has power over commanders but has to keep stavka/stalin happy as they can oust the marshal with a majority vote.

Yes some stavka reps have commader etc roles and they are more untouchable than commanders without stavka influence.

The game name might be a democracry game but it aint easy to oust your founding members.

In all fairness considering H-tower is really the General Secretary (i'll add this to the game rules if its ok) and has more power than a stavka rep we will have (one) position vacent as a Stavka rep if Htower becomes marshal again. No marshal can be on the stavka and if a stavka rep wants to (become/be reinstated) as mashal they need to resign from the stavka if accepted.

Sound fair/makes sence?

	09-05-2003 11:11									#85
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

so many posts so quickly...

One thing though that I would like to ask, I don't want to be considered any different than anyone else because MarkG and DanQ made me appointed moderator. I'm just one of the guys, no eltist priveldges for anyone!

I'll be back in 20 hours, after my next exam to read through everything and express my opinions

	09-05-2003 15:59									#86
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by H Tower so many posts so quickly... One thing though that I would like to ask, I don't want to be considered any different than anyone else because MarkG and DanQ made me appointed moderator. I'm just one of the guys, no eltist priveldges for anyone! I'll be back in 20 hours, after my next exam to read through everything and express my opinions

don't worry about

this is so funny
but guys, remember that this is just a game, I think our marshall kind of join the Stavka when STYOM said he was very buys, but if STYOM says he is still around then the Stavka should remain the way it was,

we should start a poll to decide if we let the marshal can also be a part of the Stavka

	09-05-2003 16:09									#87
	Put an end to popups!

I agree with H here. And this is conmcb25 speaking NOT Knapovich.

As the mod he has the powers that a mod has. But that is separate from the game. And I think H is telling us thats how he wants it and thats how it should be. As a mod his job is too make sure we are obeying forum rules and procedures, NOT being in Charge of Russia just because he has the power to change the forums.

I think you are mixing the two up Colwyn.

And thats how I look at, or view H. When he said get rid of the marqee text, I did it. I asked why to make sure because I used it in other forums but he explained why we shouldn't use it and I understood and realized that was one of Ming's rules. So no question. He was acting as a mod, told us he was acting as a mod, and I gave him the respect he deserved for that.

But as a citizen he is no different than you or I Colwyn. (Founding Father or not) So when it comes to whether he should be on Stavka, or whether he should come back as the Marshall he is the same as you and I and the theoretical guy who just joined the Demo Game 30 seconds ago. You may currently have more power because you are a STAVKA member but not because you are a founding father.

And I dont think a Marshall sending someone to the Gulag means in "reality" that we have to ban him from the site. It just means he is no longer a front commander or minister. He can still come here and post and contribute and do things to irritate (within forum rules) and/ or undermine the Marshall (within forum rules).

Thats part of the Demo game Colwyn.

And I dont agree that when a front commander goes to the Gulag he still has Stavka power. That just doesn't make sense.

He has the "power" to keep posting in this forum, he has the power to try and undermine the Marshall (working with his political hacks from exile) but he certainly doesn't have a Stavka vote. (He is in Siberia for Petes sake)

So in reality, I think we need to rethink this Front Commander as Stavka member thing. And Im talking in reality here now, not as a Marshall with a huge ego trying to protect my power base. (Ill get back to that later. ) It just doesn't make sense if you screw up really badly then you are virtually untouchable as a Front Commander because you are on Stavka. I could exile you but you still have a STAVKA vote under your system and you could just oust me. And how would the other Front Coomanders/Stavka memebers vote? Of course they would vote to oust because if they didn't they would be losing there Stavka "protection".

And just think about what a STAVKA vote means. It means your in power and sitting in the Kremlin. Do you really think it means the other four guys are honoring your vote from Siberia? Thats a little far-fethced IMHO.
In reality the other four would be scrambling to get one of there political hacks to replace you as soon as possible! There is no honor amongst politicians!

So there Id like to hear from H Tower when he gets a chance. (Make sure you study first H!!!)

Last edited by conmcb25 on 09-05-2003 at 17:53

	10-05-2003 02:47									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Comrade conmcb25, you didn't see a resignation letter from me, did you?

I would prefer to remain on STAVKA. It seems that being a STAVKA member involves being the voice of reason, having an eye to grand strategy, etc. I feel well suited to this role (cf. participation in past democracy games, succession games, etc).

I agree that if STAVKA is to decide when the Marshal is to be ousted, the Marshal should not be on STAVKA.

	10-05-2003 02:58									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Comrade conmcb25, you didn't see a resignation letter from me, did you? I would prefer to remain on STAVKA. It seems that being a STAVKA member involves being the voice of reason, having an eye to grand strategy, etc. I feel well suited to this role (cf. participation in past democracy games, succession games, etc). I agree that if STAVKA is to decide when the Marshal is to be ousted, the Marshal should not be on STAVKA.

Well yes and no. You said you were too busy with real life. In a post somewhere maybe in the OCT Turn. I asked you right after if that meant Stavka membership as well and had no answer. Then you did not post for several days.

STAVKA members need to be in regular communication COMRADE.

Communication is the key to our political organization's success against the Nazis.

Im glad your have finally cleared this up and I hope you will stay in touch.

	11-05-2003 07:31									#90
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Has anyone else noticed the Marshal's disturbing talk of God? It is wrong in my opinion for the leader of our nation of marxists be lead by a man who worships a God. For under God, not all men are equal.

Also this talk of saying that he is the Rodina himself greatly disturbs me, no man is the Rodina, not Stalin, Stefanovich Ivan Knapovich, nor Lenin himself are the Rodina. The Rodina is the people! The Marshal should be more careful in what he says or the KGB and NKVD may find the need to interview the Marshal