15-05-2003 02:42									#181
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Power is like a drug and once you get a taste it is hard to give up.

so true and funny in a game
so sad in real life

	15-05-2003 03:00									#182
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Yep I agree 100%.

And this is a game.........

	15-05-2003 03:43									#183
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Who are the members of STAVKA, who would vote should Shaka and Xenozod have their way?

	15-05-2003 03:46									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Iron Chancellor Who are the members of STAVKA, who would vote should Shaka and Xenozod have their way?

you need to check out this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=86014

oh, and it would be me (except i'm in the gulag) shaka naldur, the anzac, six thousand year old man, and colwyn

	15-05-2003 03:47									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Iron Chancellor Who are the members of STAVKA, who would vote should Shaka and Xenozod have their way?

In my opinion only STYOM

In some other opinions ANZAC, COLWYN, SHAKA< and STYOM.

And the final opinion is to add H Tower to the list.

Thats why Im pushing for a reorg of government. It will be cleaner and also allow more to participate.

	15-05-2003 03:54									#186
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Well, you can't just dismiss the "old" STAVKA. All of us still have a say except for possibly H Tower. Front commanders were supposed to be allowed on STAVKA when the idea was first developed, so why disqualify them now. Yes I agree on reorganization, but the current organization wants to get something done.

	15-05-2003 03:58									#187
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I think all of us want to get something done. I suggest we keep STAVKA as it is and decide on how the Politburo will work.

	15-05-2003 04:06									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Xenozod I think all of us want to get something done. I suggest we keep STAVKA as it is and decide on how the Politburo will work.

the general understanding i believe, is that the politburo gets the power to appoint and fire a marshal, and is composed of 5 or seven members who work out the economic policy and armaments being produced in rear cities. and stavka will only be front comanders with no power but to work on battle strategy

	15-05-2003 04:11									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Xenozod I think all of us want to get something done. I suggest we keep STAVKA as it is and decide on how the Politburo will work.

In conjunction with what H Tower said The Stavka will not change much. Its power will be redefined.

Im not looking for major changes here just a "cleaner ' way to do things.

	15-05-2003 04:24									#190
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I take it some of the positions-like the KGB-will have duties that differ from economic policy and such?

	15-05-2003 08:56									#191
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it's an idea, a thought someone brought up that has been latched upon by the masses, no one really knows what the headof the KGB would actually do in relation to the game...

	15-05-2003 09:30									#192
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First of the Relationship between the Stavka and Politburo

STAVKA will be the Military War Council for the Marshall. They shall be composed of some or all of the Front Commanders. This shall be decided by the Marshall. Someone who is not a Front Commnader can also be on STAVKA since this body is the group that assists and advises the Marshall he can have someone on the Council that is not a Front Commander. Front Commanders and STAVKA memebrs are chosen and serve at the pleasure of the Marshall. He picks them and he fires them. They are responsible for the Operational and Tactical conduct of the war.

POLITBURO is the Civilian Committe in Charge. They Hire and Fire the Marshall. If Stavka memebers are tired of or want to get rid of the Marshall they need to covince the POLITBURO. POLITBURO handles the civilian issues:
Propoganda, Industrial production, finances, Party Purity and Policing those not loyal to the Party. They also determine the Strategic direction of the war. (After all war is politics by other means, who said that Nitzske?)

To keep this simple I think we should have an election for Politburo members in total. Depending upon the number running we could have 5 to 7 members. So the top 7 lets say are on Politburo. Those seven chose the General Secretary/Party Chairman and he appoints members to different roles. Those roles are:

Propoganda Minister
Economic Minister
Armament Minister
NKVD

Now thats only 5 total "jobs" but that’s OK in the real Soviet Union the Politburo was the senior Party hacks, they did not necessarily have jobs like lets say the US Cabinet. So the remaining two, if we have 7 would just be plain old Politburo members.

Anyone else who runs and doesn't make the final seven can be assistants to the "job assigned Members". That way no one is excluded. If someone still wants to participate but doesn’t for some reason want to be on the Politburo then we can just say they are on the Central Committee, which was the Politburos group that executed the Politburos orders.

The first three jobs are as we know them now.

NKVD can be in charge of policing us, recommending actions for city disorder, and making sure we all follow the Party line. I would like to eventually explore control of Saratov and the movement of NKVD units before they are assigned but I think that’s a bit much to ask right now. We can discuss that possibility later.

Chairman would determine the agenda to discuss and make sure that some conclusion came to discussion. He would be the head of committee vice a supreme ruler. Someone to keep the ball rolling, and keep things on track. The chairman could also serve as one of the other “jobs” if there is a shortage of members. He would also ensure that the members with jobs are doing them correctly.

The Chairman would serve at the pleasure of the Politburo and the Politburo would serve until another election is held. The members with jobs would serve at the pleasure of the Chairman. He could remove them from a job for failure to perform. And appoint another member, do the job himself or appoint an assistant.

OK questions I have:

1. Should the Marshall be a member of the Politburo?
2. How often should we hold Politburo elections in game terms.

Other comments? And remember my goal is to get more people involved by giving them a position. (And in that way KEEPING them involved) I see the Politburo and how the Politburo interacts with the Stavka developing over time. And we aren’t going to keep everyone happy with this, but if I can get most satisfied, that is close enough for me especially since we are deciding by committee.

	15-05-2003 10:07									#193
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excellent work comrade Knapovich! I'm glad I didn't have you "dissapear"


As for the questions:
1. No, that would leave only one member of the politburo with no job, kind of odd if you ask me, and besides, there's the conflict of interest problem again with the Marshal getting to vote on whether he gets fired...

2. How about every game year? So in june, a new politbur would take over, appoint a new marshal (or keep the old one) who would then select new commanders if he wishes

One thing I would like to have added, front commanders and members of STAVKA should not be part of the politburo. The military situation is confusing enough as is without members needing to worry about political intrigue as well. The should be out in the field with the troops, leading, instead of pushing papers at a desk in Moscow


EDIT: forgot to answer question #2

Last edited by H Tower on 15-05-2003 at 10:20

	15-05-2003 11:11									#194
	Re: Heres what I know about the New Government Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 (After all war is politics by other means, who said that Nitzske?)

Clauswitz, and why are you quoating Germans?

	15-05-2003 13:27									#195
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Well, I must say that the Politburo seems to be a very good idea to get people involved.

To answer to the questions:
1. I don't think the Marshal should be part of the politburo, for he wil be represented by the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary General of the Communist Party

2. Yes, it sounds good to have elections every game year, but this will mean that there will be a delay each time we reach this point.

That being said, I think that the person taking the role of Secretary General will be of tremendous importance for the succeeding of the Politburo. It will have to be a person that is here a LOT and is very involved. Therefor, former Marshal Knapovich, I urge you to post your candidature, for you have still many loyal party members This way, we will change the Rodina from the inside

Wouldn't it be for the stupid exams, I would also like to be on the Politburo, but I have no time at the moment. Oh well, maybe I get appointed by somebody as an assistant

	15-05-2003 16:20									#196
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now the Stavka loses a lot of power, if the Marshall can select the Stavka and the front comanders and they can't do anything about the Marshall,

too much power for the marshall in my opinion

	15-05-2003 17:55									#197
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I don't see it as such, it merely moves power from the appointed officers (who could easily simply become hacks) to the elected officials. I'd rather rely upon representatives than upon appointees.

	15-05-2003 19:52									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Bossy20000 Well, I must say that the Politburo seems to be a very good idea to get people involved. To answer to the questions: 1. I don't think the Marshal should be part of the politburo, for he wil be represented by the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary General of the Communist Party 2. Yes, it sounds good to have elections every game year, but this will mean that there will be a delay each time we reach this point.

I really dont think it will slow the game down that much. Elections dont affect the Front Commanders and the Marshall therefore they can be run concurrently as the turns progress

quote: Originally posted by Bossy20000 That being said, I think that the person taking the role of Secretary General will be of tremendous importance for the succeeding of the Politburo. It will have to be a person that is here a LOT and is very involved. Therefor, former Marshal Knapovich, I urge you to post your candidature, for you have still many loyal party members This way, we will change the Rodina from the inside

I appreciate your support comrade, but my chosen course is to work with the established power structure, reform the government to allow more participation and of course ensure we have the tools and troops we need to KILL MORE FACISTS! I will be happy to serve werever Comrade Sorokin feels that I am most suited, currently killing Facists hand to Hand with the Siberians is quite pleasureable!

quote: Originally posted by Bossy20000 Wouldn't it be for the stupid exams, I would also like to be on the Politburo, but I have no time at the moment. Oh well, maybe I get appointed by somebody as an assistant

I encourage you to run anyway comrade jusy let everyone know you prefer to be an assistant at the current time. The beauty of the new system is that it will have depth. Meaning that; if someone is real busy in real life then we have enough left to continue in the decision making process. In the future when you have more time someone else may need a break and the General Seretary can appoint you as a full member and let the other person become an assistant. Thats why I left the organization somewhat flexible.

	15-05-2003 20:02									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Shaka Naldur now the Stavka loses a lot of power, if the Marshall can select the Stavka and the front comanders and they can't do anything about the Marshall, too much power for the marshall in my opinion

No not really the Marshall is selected by and serves at the pleasure of the Politburo.

If STAVKA is not happy with the performance of the Marshall then they can take up the possibility of removal with the Politburo. Although my guess is if the Marshall were already screwing up the Poliburo would already be considering removal.

This frees the STAVKA to focas on the war and killing facists which is the important thing here.

Remember Stavka was set up very quickly at the beginning of the war to fill a power vacuum because we had to resist the Germans immediately. Now that more citizens want to participate in the Process the Politburo will allow us to do that.

And I want to assure you comrade that this plan did not just spring out of my head. I discussed this plan at LENGHT with the HIGHEST members of the current power structure before I published it.

Again my goal is to reform from within, while providing an organization that will allow more citizens to actively participate.

	15-05-2003 20:16									#200
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quote: Originally posted by PinkyGen Clauswitz, and why are you quoating Germans?

Carefull comrade Marx was a German as well and gave us the wonderfull system we now live under.

	15-05-2003 21:15									#201
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In normal life, STAVKA didn't have so much power over the Communist Society. Stalin was a dictator, who didn't always listen to STAVKA, nor to his other advisors. STAVKA is there to run the war, not to run the country. Marshals are easily replacable (which we have seen here), therefore the power must be in the hands of the Communist Party and the Politburo.

Nevertheless, we should maybe consider to build some kind of Coup d'état in our system, so that the military can take the power over the Rodina, IF the Politburo messes up too much (For example a unanimous vote of STAVKA plus at least one member of the Politburo) This way, we can have some more intrigue, which gives the non-playing members here something to do. (Some nice political scheming )

	15-05-2003 21:27									#202
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If we allow a coup, I'd want a unanimous STAVKA plus at least 1/5 (2/7?) of the Politburo.

	15-05-2003 21:35									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Iron Chancellor If we allow a coup, I'd want a unanimous STAVKA plus at least 1/5 (2/7?) of the Politburo.

I think Comrade Bossy means a coup to dissolve the Politburo.

If the intent is only the General Secretary then he can be removed by a simple vote of the Politburo. (He is selected by the group of 7 and is one of the group of 7.)
So they could just vote him out.

And nothing says STAVKA members and the Marshall can not ry to influenece the Politburo.

In a round about way the possibility of a coup already exists.

Obviously removing the entire Politburo would me more drastic and thus more difficult.

But remember they are elected once a year so if you dont like what the Politburo is doing then just vote them out!

	15-05-2003 22:05									#204
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I don't see the purpose of the Stavka yet, what is it for??
the politburo says who is the marshall and the marshall appoints the Stavka members,
the stavka is worthless then

I think we should make this more democratic, every period of time make elections to select the marshall and the front comanders, and politburo members
just the way it is in the other democracy games

	15-05-2003 22:20									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Shaka Naldur I don't see the purpose of the Stavka yet, what is it for?? the politburo says who is the marshall and the marshall appoints the Stavka members, the stavka is worthless then

Well coming from someone who doesn't seem to work well with others I could understand why you feel this way comrade. The STAVKA is the Marshalls council of war. When there is competing opinions about the conduct of the war the Marshall can listen to his council for advice on how to make his decision. This also forces Front Commanders to work together and sell a major plan to the Marshall, this will become even more important as we transition to the offensive comrade. And please dont tell me that front commanders don't have to work together again.

quote: Originally posted by Shaka Naldur I think we should make this more democratic, every period of time make elections to select the marshall and the front comanders, and politburo members just the way it is in the other democracy games

In general I have no problem with this, however during my talks with high ranking party officials and members of the government we decided to go with this system. It is a hybrid between total democracy and total dictatorship. The powers that be felt this would be in the spirit of being in the Soviet Union.

But I could consider wholesale elections. The only thing that may do is diminish the ability of the group to particiapte in Stalinist type coups and takeovers, but you are right it certainly would be like the other Demo games.

BTW is there anything you actually like about the plan comrade?

	15-05-2003 22:34									#206
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 BTW is there anything you actually like about the plan comrade?

the thing i don´t like is the power the marshall will have
I like the politburo idea

	15-05-2003 22:38									#207
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Well coming from someone who doesn't seem to work well with others I could understand why you feel this way comrade.

I think I haven't said anything like that to you yet and I have always treated you with respect,
the only things you know about the real me is about 30 posts you've read in this forum so I don't appreciate any coments like that

	15-05-2003 22:48									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Shaka Naldur I think I haven't said anything like that to you yet and I have always treated you with respect, the only things you know about the real me is about 30 posts you've read in this forum so I don't appreciate any coments like that

Well I did say seem. That means I think but Im not quite sure. And sorry if you took offense. But thats the impression you gave me when I was the Marshall.

However with that being said I will withdraw the comment.

	15-05-2003 23:24									#209
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STAVKA and the Marshal are there to fight the war, the Politburo runs the country. Nevertheless, we must have an option to get rid of the Politburo between the elections, for otherwise you would have to wait an entire year. It is this what I meant in my previous post.

A country without a leader, and this in a time of war is a fast way to get destroyed. Therefore, we must assure that there is a very fine balance between all of the political and military powers (just like the guarding of the Kremlin: three different services, each resorting under another department, and each having different arms and training (good training= light arma and vice versa))

This would add a whole new dimension of political struggles!

PS I'm just playing a role in my posts, I'm not playing the real me (I'm even worse )

	15-05-2003 23:29									#210
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Oh, BTW, I think I am going to post my candidature for the Politburo as Party Ideologist. I have noticed that many people here are drifting away from the Party guidelines, and we need to get them back in line!

Comrade Michaelovitch for Party Ideologist!!!!

For a more pure and better communism!