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nbarclay is offline nbarclay
Emperor
Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-04-2003 08:43
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Turn 88, 825 BC Tired of ads?

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- Research at 60%, Feudalism in 9 turns (if the current rate is sustained).
- Luxuries at 10%
- ~291 gold cash, ~-1/turn.

Urgent questions:
- Do we want to suspend research and stockpile gold for a while?
- Do we want to go ahead and upgrade enough warriors once we get our iron connected that we aren't weak compared with Vox?
- Where do we want to settle next?
- How many units and which do we want to relocate towards the "front".

Military:
- Warriors other than our main three pickets withdraw to Hurricane for possible upgrade.
- WC in the western desert moves 8-8.
- Any other orders from our generals?

Economy:

- Worker 8 from Arashi finishes mine, starts mining other shielded grassland.
- Worker 7-7 from EotS moves 8-4-4.
- Worker 8 from Typhoon starts road.
- Worker on iron mountain joins roading effort.
- New worker in EotS moves 3-6 and starts switching Hurricane's grassland from mined to irrigated.
- EotS finishes worker, starts another. Make sure it's working two flood plains.
- Bolderberg finishes a war chariot and starts a spearman. Need to make sure it's working six two-food tiles.
- Typhoon grows. Works a mined wheat and either one unshielded and two shielded or two shielded and one unshielded mined grasslands, depending on whether the extra shield does it any good.
- Cyclone finishes a settler and starts another. Works the irrigated game and either two or three shielded grasslands depending on Typhoon's needs. (If two, it also works an irrigated plains or a mined grassland without shield.)
- Tornado finishes a warrior and starts a spearman.
- Switch Sandstorm to working a flood plains and a plains, vacating a flood plains for use by Arashi.
- Have Arashi work two flood plains and a grassland with shield. (Check whether Monsoon is benefitting from working the mined grassland with shield instead of the unmined one, and if not, give the mined one to Arashi.)


Diplomacy:

Thread library:
- Standing orders for workers

Last edited by nbarclay on 03-04-2003 at 21:15

Shiber is offline Shiber
Emperor
Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:27
  Old Post 03-04-2003 12:42
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Re: Turn 88, 825 BC Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
- Do we want to suspend research and stockpile gold for a while?


I would suggest that we follow the ideas raised in the Hoarding Gold thread, which basically means that we'll suspend research right now, use the money to build up our research capabilities with libraries and the such, and then complete Feudalism (at a much lower cost, since other teams will already have acquired it) and rejoin the race, only much stronger.

zeit is offline zeit
King
Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:27
  Old Post 03-04-2003 18:11
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Maybe we can start asking around how much the other teams offer for the tech...
Don't forget we have a deal running with Lego- although i'm sure they won't be terribly dissapointed by this, as their idea of our tech relations is quick different (to them, it seems, all of this is just an agreement to "trade techs in the future").

But if we hoard gold- i don't think Libraries are what we're gonna build- more likely upgrading will cost us a fortune- and we won't be able to spare much...

However, I don't think we need to upgrade that much in the near future- we'll have a real production powerhouses up and running pretty soon- so i'd support a limited upgrade now, to make sure the Voxians don't get any ideas, and look for opportunities to whore Feudalism- we might get more than we expect, but if it looks like we won't, we could always stop and continue afterwards, like DeepO suggested.

Do i have a go for this?

Shiber is offline Shiber
Emperor
Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:27
  Old Post 03-04-2003 18:19
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Put an end to popups!

It's a good idea, but I'm not sure if any of the teams can really obligate on a price or give accurate predictions on what they'd be willing to pay in 10 turns.
Probing around is always a good idea though. I'm all for it

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 03-04-2003 19:27
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quote:
Tornado finishes a warrior and starts another.


A request: can we stop building warriors? I'd rather we build WCs or Spearmen. Med. Inf are of very limited use, IMO, and I'd rather spend the shields on better units. Tech is moving so fast, I don't see the point in continuing to invest in something with such a limited upgrade path (guerillas don't much for me either).

-Arrian

Shiber is offline Shiber
Emperor
Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:27
  Old Post 03-04-2003 19:39
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Let me join in on that request. It makes sense to have some warriors ready to be upgraded to Med Inf in order to attack Dissidentville and the iron colony, where knights wouldn't matter because of the rough terrain, but the rest of our forces should be mobile units.

nbarclay is offline nbarclay
Emperor
Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-04-2003 19:46
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Orders changed to WCs; we might want to consider whether we want instead to go with more spearmen while we can build spears for upgrade to pikes, though.

zeit is offline zeit
King
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Sep 2002
time: 06:27
  Old Post 03-04-2003 20:59
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I also think a few more spearmen are in order, our defense is seriously lacking.

Has anyone tested how many troops we could build, up until the GA? it would be good to know when we can make ourselves adequately armed to make war on Vox possible, and how long into our GA that might be...

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 03-04-2003 21:11
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I was actually leaning toward spearmen myself. We definitely need more. We have 2 now, right? I'd like more like 8 (5 for pikeman upgrade & use in invasion force, 3 for "homeland defense").

-Arrian

nbarclay is offline nbarclay
Emperor
Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-04-2003 21:16
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Orders changed to two spearmen.

Aeson is offline Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:27
  Old Post 03-04-2003 22:32
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We don't really need too many Spears right now. WC's are more likely to kill Immortals (or Swords/Archers), and can cover more ground. We will have 3 cities in our GA at 30 shields per turn, perfect for Pikes.

I'd like to see us build up our offensive capacity first, as it's our best defense at this time as well. The only point we really need Spears at right now is in Arashi (specifically 9 of Arashi) to force Immortals off of the Mountains so our WC's can hit them. We also have at least 5 turns warning before they could get there. Warriors on the Mountains near Hurricane can stop any landings just as well as Spears.

On a side note... did Dissidentville just build a Worker, a Settler, or pop rush?

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 00:37
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Ok, let's build 1 WC and 1 spear. I don't want any spears on those mountains yet so we don't give away our intentions to Vox, but I would like them up in the general area, ready to move into position as soon as trouble is sighted.

The only reason I suggested spears right now, Aeson, is that in a relatively low number of turns, we will be building pikemen, not spears, due to our impending discovery of feudalism. I gather we will be hooking up our iron soon too. Therefore, instead of being able to build 20 shield defenders that upgrade relatively inexpensively, we would have to build 30 shield defenders. So I figured we could pump out a few spears (say... 6?) and then go all-out on War Chariots. But a more balanced approach is probably wiser if we're actually worried about Voxian attack.

-Arrian

DeepO is offline DeepO

Emperor
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Jan 2002
time: 06:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 01:36
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Question: I saw our palace cost just increased to 400 shields, and at first this might sound a good thing for us, as we can mask our wonder prebuild right up to the last turn. However, if other teams know the formula of palace cost (which I do not, BTW), they might deduce that we had over 11 cities as of ~800 BC.

Do we consider that a risk, do we want to hide our exact size? If so, we might need to switch to the Pyramids the moment we would have done it if we had 300 shield palaces, so in a few turns or so.

DeepO

Dominae is offline Dominae
Emperor

Jan 2002
time: 00:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 02:08
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Does any team suspect we're building the Pyramids? I mean, do we suspect that another team suspects? If not (or almost certainly not), I think the benefits of keeping it a secret as long as possible outweigh the drawback of having other teams know how big we are. Notice that they will not know exactly how big; they will not know if we've got 11 cities or more. Hiding our true potential is very valuable, but other teams will get a good sense how powerful we are once we get the Pyramids, trigger our Golden Age and crush Vox (if we do). Once all that happens, we can pretty much expect other teams to know we're a big kid on the block.


Dominae

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 02:11
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Let's hide our wonderous intent as long as possible (until the turn before completion, then). If one or more of the other teams is smart enough to deduce our approximate size based on that, more power to them. They could probably figure such things out via careful watching of the F11 screen & power rankings anyway.

-Arrian

Shiber is offline Shiber
Emperor
Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 10:11
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A reminder: please check who is in Desp., Rep., Mon. & Anarchy when you get the turn (like we did on turn 86).
Btw, would it be possible to go back to our turn 87 save and check there too, if someone still has the save stored somewhere?

Sir Ralph is offline Sir Ralph
Emperor
Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 17:27
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Team scores:

179 (+4) Gathering Storm
187 (+3) Demogyptica
156 (+3) Glory of War
189 (+3) Role Play
129 (+2) Vox Controli
190 (+3) Legoland

ND is an Anarchy, RP a Monarchy and everybody else except us is in Despotism.

We have a new settler ready, but lack orders where to go with him. Thoughts?

I have to go soon (my DVD drive ceased to work with a murderous sound and I need a new one before weekend), so I'll probably play after I return. Plenty of time to discuss.

Aeson is offline Aeson
Emperor
orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 21:03
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I think we should head to the W Desert with this Settler.

As for cash, we need to keep enough to rush the Aquaduct in Tempest the turn before the Pyramids completes. I don't think we should upgrade any units until we have too. We have enough warning time that we can upgrade a few Swords and have them in place by the time they are needed, if they are.

Vox might get ideas, but that would just simplify things for us diplomatically, and we really aren't in any risk at this point. Also consider that Vox is less likely to build up a defensive force in the S if we look less able to attack.

FrustratedPoet is offline FrustratedPoet
Emperor
All Glory To The Hypnotoad!
Mar 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 21:59 Visit FrustratedPoet's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
We have a new settler ready, but lack orders where to go with him. Thoughts?


Some more poorly informed ideas from me:



This should at least give some structure to the debate. I'm assuming that we aren't so worried about the border agreement any more, but maybe I'm mistaken about that.

Site 1 - Access to whale (Aeson: is this the site you had in mind?). Puts up a barrier to discourage future galleys from landing in the desert.

Site 2 - Easily defensible because of the mountains, pushes 'the front' closer to existing Voxian lands.

Site 3 - Water tiles, build on desert to maximise available grassland, also pushes our borders closer to Vox.

FrustratedPoet is offline FrustratedPoet
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All Glory To The Hypnotoad!
Mar 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 22:05 Visit FrustratedPoet's homepage!
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Also, note that Site 1 is on top of an Incense, which is perhaps not such a smart move, I dunno. Moving one tile south would build on empty desert and still give access to the Whale after border expansion.

Dominae is offline Dominae
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Jan 2002
time: 00:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 22:09
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Put an end to popups!

I suggest placing two cities around site 1 on FP's map, one due South (where the WC currently is) and one due North.


Dominae

Aeson is offline Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 22:30
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Site 1 was where I'd put it, just to save the pop (which basically gives us +2 Workers). Those 2 W desert cities aren't going to add much for quite a while. Their main benefit is they open up the last 2 hill tiles for Tempest, and the 1 for Bolderberg. A Temple in Bolderberg along with the site 1 city does this just as well, and saves us 2 pop. Both ways cost 30 shields. We'd need to finish a Temple in Bolderberg in the next 4 turns though (means we'd need to switch to it this turn).

The Mountains actually make site 2 less defendable short term, and long term it doesn't matter as Vox won't be a threat to us after about halfway through our GA. We should build our cities on Desert tiles whenever possible.

ixnay is offline ixnay
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Jan 1970
time: 22:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 22:41 Visit ixnay<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'd go with site 1.

Dominae is offline Dominae
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Jan 2002
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  Old Post 04-04-2003 22:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
Site 1 was where I'd put it, just to save the pop (which basically gives us +2 Workers).


But the long-term potential of two coastal cities there is better than saving two pop short-term, right?


Dominae

Shiber is offline Shiber
Emperor
Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 22:45
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Please comment on my proposal for an offer to GoW re: Feudalism (it's here). It's important that we come up with something as soon as possible, because we need to decide whether Aeson's plan to cease research for a while pays or if we're missing out on too much by not being the first to research Feudalism.

As for whether we should stop research, as suggested by Aeson, or continue in our normal course: IMHO the final decision depends on what GoW and the other Bobians would be willing to pay for Feudalism. We can delay the decision of whether to follow Aeson's plan or not to later by stopping research temporarily this turn; if we choose to continue by next turn, we can research at a deficit, burning through the money that we've stockpiled this turn, and not lose our ETA on Feudalism.

Aeson is offline Aeson
Emperor
orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 22:56
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Got spare money?

Depends. If we hit Vox, probably not as our new territory will be more productive without the additional city bumping them up the OCN.

Growth in the second W Desert city is going to be very slow, much more so than in any other city site we can see. It needs a Harbor to grow past size 2, and won't make it past size 1 for 20 turns. It's going to be a dismal city for quite some time.

Then consider that the extra 2 workers can be added to EotS (helping to mine all those Plains first) to get it to 30 shields per turn. It gives us ~4 extra turns of top flight production in our GA, which can mean up to 40 shields depending on our builds.

If we set up Cyclone as a 1 turn Worker pump, it actually means the difference of 3-4 Workers in our GA though (we could also set up Cyclone as a 3 turn Settler pump, but it only works off and on).

Last edited by Aeson on 04-04-2003 at 23:28

DeepO is offline DeepO

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Jan 2002
time: 06:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 23:20
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Can't we build one city now, and keep the other space open for later, if we decide to? right now, settlers are limited, but this might change in the future, and having to simply settle a site would then be easier then moving another city out of the way.

So, if we decide to settle South of #1, we would lose probably 1 gpt because we don't get the income from the incense beneath our city, but we would be able to grow to size 5 without harbor. Once we have settlers to spare we can then decide to settle the other site, if we want that in the future corruption situation.

BTW, moving the city South makes a temple not that much of a necessity anymore.

DeepO

Aeson is offline Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 23:25
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Then we miss out on opening up the final hill tile Tempest needs to hit 30 shields per turn until Monsoon finishes it's Temple + 5 turns for border expansion.

Sir Ralph is offline Sir Ralph
Emperor
Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 23:28
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Playing the turn as described. Moving the settler 777, towards the incense. Turn and screenshots will be sent within the next minutes.

Aeson is offline Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:27
  Old Post 04-04-2003 23:31
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We need to switch Bolderberg to a Temple if going with just 1 W desert city.

 
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