04-04-2003 05:33									#31
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Outside the Republican Party, probably.

What about the Log Cabin Republicans?

quote: I think it's offensive, even though it's not intended to be with most uses of it these days.

Intent is a crucial factor.

quote: Now, if you got punished in primary school for saying it, you'd probably be a lot less likely to call random things "gay" when you don't like them.

I doubt it. Punishing it will just make it forbidden fruit and encourage kids to use it more.

	04-04-2003 05:33									#32
	Got spare money?

you reckon?

i mean yeah it might have made me not use it within earshot of teachers, but for us gay =ed bad outside of school just as much as in.

what i'm getting at is that suspending some poor sod to make an example of him won't stop him or any other kids using that terminology, it's not really something schools alone can address.

	04-04-2003 05:34									#33
	Put an end to popups!

Asher:

So the word is wrong when used when you don't like something?

How would you distinguish from someone who uses it offhand, with someone intending to offend?

Someone trying to offend would deserve a suspension, but not for just using the word.

	04-04-2003 05:40									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Intent is a crucial factor.

Nonsense, intent doesn't matter if it's offensive and degrading to a whole array of people.

Would you let people go around saying the n-word casually if they didn't intend for it to be offensive?

quote: I doubt it. Punishing it will just make it forbidden fruit and encourage kids to use it more.

That happens in some cases.

But the use of "that's so gay" is far more socially acceptable than the n-word, f-word, that kind of thing. Why is it more socially acceptable? Because nobody ever gets punished for it.

It's time we start.

Nothing major -- a suspension is a glorified vacation from school.

	04-04-2003 05:41									#35
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Asher: So the word is wrong when used when you don't like something? How would you distinguish from someone who uses it offhand, with someone intending to offend? Someone trying to offend would deserve a suspension, but not for just using the word.

I don't think we should have to distinguish between who uses the word, it's patently offensive in either context.

If people are so dense as to not realize what they're saying, they shouldn't be exempt from it. Perhaps if they were punished they'd figure out what that actually means to some people when they say it.

	04-04-2003 05:42									#36
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Would you let people go around saying the n-word casually if they didn't intend for it to be offensive?

It happens all the time. Haven't you ever heard a hip-hop record?

	04-04-2003 05:43									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten It happens all the time. Haven't you ever heard a hip-hop record.

Of course, but people also say gay all the time.

Now if you used the n-word in class, you'd (probably) be promptly punished.

Kids saying everything they don't like is gay don't get punished.

See the difference?

	04-04-2003 05:45									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Where I'm coming from is this:

When you're a gay kid growing up in school, and everyone always says stuff they don't like is "gay", it adds a very real sense of shame and embarassment to the kid. That's why most gay kids wouldn't ever think about coming out until after high school -- and that's certainly not a fun experience.

The excessive use of the word in today's school subtly fosters an environment of intolerance and even hate, even though it's got to the point where people say it without thinking about what it means. To the gay teen in the corner, it means a lot regardless of intent.

	04-04-2003 05:46									#39
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Now if you used the n-word in class, you'd (probably) be promptly punished.

What makes you think that? They'd only get punished if they went up to a black kid and used it as an insult; I can't see them getting punished for repeating a rap song or calling their friends "my niggas". Can't you see the difference? Intent is everything...

	04-04-2003 05:47									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten That makes you think that? They'd only get punished if they went up to a black kid and used it as an insult; I can't see them getting punished for repeating a rap song or calling their friends "my niggas". Can't you see the difference? Intent is everything...

Is that how it works in Nebraska?

Both in Alberta and California, the teacher would punish any student who used the N-word, regardless.

	04-04-2003 05:51									#41
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Both in Alberta and California, the teacher would punish any student who used the N-word, regardless.

I guess we're still free out here in the sticks. Have fun with the thought police...

	04-04-2003 05:52									#42
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Intent is a crucial factor.

Intent is not a factor at all. Language has nothing at all to do with intent, and everything to do with interpretation.

	04-04-2003 05:53									#43
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I guess we're still free out here in the sticks. Have fun with the thought police...

We're free out here too, free from hate and prejudice in supervised school environments.

Something Nebraska clearly isn't up to par with.

	04-04-2003 05:55									#44
	Increase Your PM Length

what about niggardly

	04-04-2003 05:55									#46
	Support Apolyton

quote: We're free out here too, free from hate and prejudice in supervised school environments.

So a kid singing a Snoop Dogg song is spreading hate and prejudice?

You're letting your bias affect your thinking on this one, Asher.

	04-04-2003 05:57									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten So a kid singing a Snoop Dogg song is spreading hate and prejudice?

What don't you understand? The n-word by itself is a derrogatory term, so its use shouldn't be permitted in school regardless. Similarly, when "gay" is used synonymously with a derrogatory term, THAT should not be permitted in schools either.

My schools both in the US or Canada certainly wouldn't permit the playing of a Snoop Dogg song if it contained explicit lyrics like the n-word.

I actually do find it hard to believe that Nebraska schools would be that reckless, as well...

quote: You're letting your bias affect your thinking on this one, Asher.

No, you're just not thinking it through or being sympathetic to the people on the other side of the fence.

	04-04-2003 06:00									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: No, you're just not thinking it through or being sympathetic to the people on the other side of the fence.

God forbid that I expect people to be able to comprehend different meanings for a word based on context...

	04-04-2003 06:02									#49
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten God forbid that I expect people to be able to comprehend different meanings for a word based on context...

You're asking them not to be human.

You obviously don't understand it. I'm not surprised, really. Very few people can understand it without going through it, but I'm rather appalled you don't care that people are offended by it.

I'm telling you, people ARE offended by it, regardless of its intent. You can tell them all to suck it up and try to convince them that using their sexuality as an insult for anything and everything under the sun isn't offensive, but then you'd clearly make yourself out to be a moron.

	04-04-2003 06:06									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: You're asking them not to be human.

Most humans are smart enough to tell the difference between "gay" used a synonym for "lame" and "gay" used as an insult. If you can't distinguish between the two, that's fine. I'm pretty sure you are in the minority, however.

BTW, having this argument yet again is totally gay...

	04-04-2003 06:09									#51
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Most humans are smart enough to tell the difference between "gay" used a synonym for "lame" and "gay" used as an insult. If you can't distinguish between the two, that's fine. I'm pretty sure you are in the minority, however.

No, the problem here is you aren't thinking enough.

The problem is you're using a term to describe someone's sexuality as a catch-all insult.

Don't you see why that's offensive regardless of the individual person's intent?

It's a reminder that society doesn't like you, won't accept you, and will treat you like **** -- every time that word is used.

And that word is used, a lot. That's why there's such a major problem with gay teens.

They're the demographic with the largest suicide rate, they're forced to live double lives until after high school usually, and "little" things like this are what can cause it.

There are many other words people can use, but it's somehow okay to use sexuality as an insult for everything.

I find it reprehensible that the use of the word as a derrogatory term goes unpunished in the vast majority of schools.

	04-04-2003 06:11									#52
	Got spare money?

I'll try once again to explain:

There's basically two factors that can be offensive in the term, and Drake & Co are only capable of seeing one of them.
1. When the term is used as a direct insult against someone.
2. When the term is used as a derrogatory term for something else. Every time the word is used like this, it's obvious you're using the sexuality in a derrogatory way. This is also offensive, because you're telling gay people that they're an insult.

	04-04-2003 06:12									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: And that word is used, a lot. That's why there's such a major problem with gay teens.

Right. Like gay teens were just fine before "gay" gained a new meaning. Give me a break...

	04-04-2003 06:12									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten God forbid that I expect people to be able to comprehend different meanings for a word based on context...

Exactly. I am so sick and tired of people ignoring the fact that words can be used in new ways. I read somewhere that a college reprimanded someone for the use of the word "niggardly" even though they admitted that they knew what the word meant. I wish people could appreciate the fact that the meanings of terms are context dependent. Ditto for "man" - don't people know that this word has two meanings, one is species and the other is gender? Complaining doesn't change that fact. And frankly we've got more pressing concerns than worrying about the way people talk.

I've heard gay people use the term in the way this student used it. I think it is healthy that it is being used this way since it is a mild insult and mildly mocks the old fashioned "gay" stereotype, which in my opinion needs to be an object of fun because it is so silly and doesn't reflect reality (if it ever did).

	04-04-2003 06:14									#55
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I agree with Agathon?

	04-04-2003 06:17									#56
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

it is the end of days!

	04-04-2003 06:21									#57
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Asher I'll try once again to explain: There's basically two factors that can be offensive in the term, and Drake & Co are only capable of seeing one of them. 1. When the term is used as a direct insult against someone. 2. When the term is used as a derrogatory term for something else. Every time the word is used like this, it's obvious you're using the sexuality in a derrogatory way. This is also offensive, because you're telling gay people that they're an insult.

1. If someone used this term against me as an insult I would laugh. It's a mild insult and generally used in a friendly way.

2. If somebody saw a bright pink Volkswagen beetle festooned with ribbons and a Julio Iglesias airhorn and said, "That's so gay!". I'd agree.

This use of the term "gay" originates from the stereotypical "fairy". But that stereotype is so old fashioned, and like all such stereotypes, faintly ridiculous. It is almost impossible to actually insult someone with it these days. When a stereotype becomes so harmless that even those supposedly stereotyped by it start mocking it, then I think we've made some progress towards ending the problem of discrimination against homosexuals.

And another thing - if you want to hear the best kind of gay jokes, the kind that make you laugh with, rather than at homosexuals, ask a gay person. Same goes for jokes about other minorities.

	04-04-2003 06:23									#58
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I agree with Agathon?

Weird isn't it.

Did you ever watch that old series, "The Brothers"? I think that was one of the first series in the US with openly gay characters (and so much better than Ellen). The best character in it was one called Donald, who was a ridiculously stereotypical gay man. Contrasted with this was the main character who like most gay people I know appeared entirely normal. The point being: yes we know about this stereotype - it is ridiculous but also charmingly funny.

	04-04-2003 06:25									#59
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What about sympathy for this twelve-year-old kid who obviously is too young to appreciate the political significance of his words, who was just trying to have some innocent fun on the playground? Wouldn't a stern reprimand have been sufficient? Why do we punish children for the problems created by a spoiled, rotten adult culture (e.g., draconian "zero-tolerance" policies, mandatory drug-testing of participants in extracurricular activities)?

	04-04-2003 06:26									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Did you ever watch that old series, "The Brothers"?

Never heard of it. Sounds kinda like Jack and Will on "Will & Grace"...