04-04-2003 07:47									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I'm not calling anyone names in specific, but if people continue to put forth incredibly stupid arguments I think it's safe to call them morons. I don't see why mine and Agathon's arguments are "stupid". We're saying that one of the commonly accepted meanings of "gay" is as a synonym of "lame" and has no relations to the sexual meaning of "gay". No one has disproved this. Where's the stupidity?

Well it has an historical relation to it, but I can't see why they can't get it either.

	04-04-2003 07:49									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The last sentence is part of my claim. You want my support for it? Can't you see that wishy-washy effeminate behaviour is silly (even in women)? You have noted that the stereotype of the fairy is known to be false of gay people - I know that. But the name for that stereotype is still "gay" - there is a fork in the meaning of the term here occasioned by the recognition that the stereotype is not true of homosexuals. I'd argue that the mild nature of the teen insult means that the teens are picking up on "gay" from the second fork - silly effeminate, etc. If they were trying to use it along the lines of "fag" it would be a much deadlier insult, but it isn't. Case closed.

Again, this doesn't hold water in the face of the actual way in which homosexuals were regarded when the phrase originated--people were mocking gays for what they did just as much as for stereotypes as to how they acted. That's why derogatory phrases for what were seen as gay acts "cocksucker," "butt buddy," etc. were also being used rampantly. To try to assert the use of "gay" in this context was somehow different from those and was aimed at mocking the stereotype is ludicrous in the face of the SLEW of other insults that were running concurrently. Your reasoning defies logic.

quote: So can I, but I've noticed that things have changed. No teen-ager who wanted to insult a homosexual would use "gay", they wouldn't even use "queer" or "fairy" because these are a bit old and quaint. "Fag" is still verboten though.

Once again, it's not about an explicit intent in modern usage to deride gays--it's about the use of a group label to denote something bad or silly, which reinforces cultural notions, however subtley, that being a part of that group is a bad thing. It is really much more simple than the convulusions you're going through.

	04-04-2003 07:50									#123
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quote: mindseye, we brought up that point with the "Jew" phrase, but they repeatedly ignored it, because it doesn't compute to their illogic.

My friends (including our Jewish friend) use the term "jewish" to describe the cheating that sports videogames often use to give a good player competition. Do you think we're insulting our friend and his religion? Is he a self-hating Jew? Or are we just using a familiar word in a new way?

	04-04-2003 07:50									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I don't see why mine and Agathon's arguments are "stupid". We're saying that one of the commonly accepted meanings of "gay" is as a synonym of "lame" and has no relations to the sexual meaning of "gay". No one has disproved this. Where's the stupidity?

Because it's not something you can prove/disprove, and it DOES NOT MATTER.

People ARE offended by it, people WILL CONTINUE to be offended by it, REGARDLESS if some people on online forums "prove" (they can't) it has nothing to do with the sexuality.

The very word is identical to the sexual orientation. Kids don't know the difference, hell no one can know the difference and origin. To kids, it's just calling stupid things gay.

Hey, I wonder why gay people have such a hard time in high school???

That's why it's stupid.

(BTW, "lame" simply means weak/ineffective -- the fact that it can also refer to physically disabled people is completely different than "gay")

	04-04-2003 07:52									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon So it's similar in some respects, different in others. Big deal.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Well you are obviously too dopey to see that two words might have different histories and thus your case is a false analogy.

If you can't keep consistent arguments in the span of two posts, then this really is pointless.

	04-04-2003 07:52									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm not calling anyone names in specific, but if people continue to put forth incredibly stupid arguments I think it's safe to call them morons.

From the chief dolt on Apolyton himself that is high praise indeed.

quote: Such as telling millions of people that we can continue using a word and that they shouldn't be offended by it. The person with such an argument clearly doesn't understand that people WILL continue to be offended by it, regardless, and it also isn't clear from the context.

It is clear in the speech community (i.e. teens) in which it is used. It is their coinage, you have no right to tell them what their words mean.

quote: Gay is used both as a catch-all insult and as a description of sexual orientation these days.

Yes, it is. Two different meanings.

quote: Idiots can argue that they are completely separate, but they're obviously not -- it's the same stupid word.

Idiots like Asher who has just demonstrated that he is well aware of the distinction. I'll say it again in plain English: they used to be synonyms, now they are effectively homonyms.

quote: And since we don't know exactly where it came from, and nobody will ever know, gay people will continue to assume it's because of the sexuality (which logically makes the most sense).

I know where it came from. I speak English.

	04-04-2003 07:55									#127
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quote: The very word is identical to the sexual orientation. Kids don't know the difference, hell no one can know the difference and origin. To kids, it's just calling stupid things gay.

Don't assume that kids can't recognize basic differences in context just because you can't...

	04-04-2003 07:55									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: mindseye, we brought up that point with the "Jew" phrase, but they repeatedly ignored it, because it doesn't compute to their illogic. My friends (including our Jewish friend) use the term "jewish" to describe the cheating that sports videogames often use to give a good player competition. Do you think we're insulting our friend and his religion? Is he a self-hating Jew? Or are we just using a familiar word in a new way?

If a kid was in highschool gym class, and shouted a phrase, "don't be such a Jew with that ball," do you think that would be appropriate? If a kid in class said to his teacher, "don't be such a Jew with grades," would that be appropriate?

Your above story isn't a suitable comparison. If you have worked out an arragement with your friend that slurs are fine so long as everyone realizes they are in good fun, that's your business. But to expect people not in on the arrangement to not be offended when they hear you say it...please.

And would you possibly assert that the origin of the use of that phrase is in no way related to the hurtful stereotypes against Jews? Of course you wouldn't.

	04-04-2003 07:57									#129
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quote: So it's similar in some respects, different in others. Big deal.

It's not just different, it's the opposite!

quote: Well you are obviously too dopey to see that two words might have different histories

Except in this case they don't.

Besides, even were that ridiculous notion true, it's still a moot point as long as a pre-existing group already is identified by the same word. In other words, if you invented a new meaning for "Latino" that meant "worthless", Latinos would be be justified in being offended, even if the "new" meaning for "Latino" had some other origin.

	04-04-2003 07:57									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon From the chief dolt on Apolyton himself that is high praise indeed.

Does it embarass you that the chief dolt on Apolyton puts you to absolute shame?

quote: It is clear in the speech community (i.e. teens) in which it is used. It is their coinage, you have no right to tell them what their words mean.

Nonsense, as a member of the "speech community" (i.e. teens) in which it is used, I can tell you that the vast majority of people assume "gay" to refer to "gay people", and not any of the high-strung examples you've pathetically tried to assemble here.

quote: Yes, it is. Two different meanings.

Wow! What a coincidence. They're not two different meanings, it's the same meaning with two different interpretations.

Morons and bigots interpret the sexuality as stupid and bad, and use it as an insult. Next thing you know, everyone uses the word as an insult casually and it's suddenly a completely separate word! Give me a break.

quote: Idiots like Asher who has just demonstrated that he is well aware of the distinction. I'll say it again in plain English: they used to be synonyms, now they are effectively homonyms.

Read again. There is no distiction, it just depends how you interpret it.

quote: I know where it came from. I speak English.

It's about the only thing you can do.

	04-04-2003 07:58									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Again, this doesn't hold water in the face of the actual way in which homosexuals were regarded when the phrase originated--people were mocking gays for what they did just as much as for stereotypes as to how they acted. That's why derogatory phrases for what were seen as gay acts "cocksucker," "butt buddy," etc. were also being used rampantly. To try to assert the use of "gay" in this context was somehow different from those and was aimed at mocking the stereotype is ludicrous in the face of the SLEW of other insults that were running concurrently. Your reasoning defies logic.

My logic is "that was then, this is now". The use of the word gay as a term of mild insult is very recent. We are old men, Boris. Teens have new slang.

quote: Once again, it's not about an explicit intent in modern usage to deride gays--it's about the use of a group label to denote something bad or silly, which reinforces cultural notions, however subtley, that being a part of that group is a bad thing. It is really much more simple than the convulusions you're going through.

Sure it's simpler, but it doesn't really provide an explanation. You seem now to be saying that teens magically decided to use the term "gay". Perhaps they did, but that flies in the face of the fact that most changes in linguistic usage are evolutionary rather than instantaneous.

And it isn't reinforcing cultural notions amongst teens, who know very well what they mean.

	04-04-2003 07:59									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I'm not calling anyone names in specific, but if people continue to put forth incredibly stupid arguments I think it's safe to call them morons. I don't see why mine and Agathon's arguments are "stupid". We're saying that one of the commonly accepted meanings of "gay" is as a synonym of "lame" and has no relations to the sexual meaning of "gay". No one has disproved this. Where's the stupidity?

No one has disproved it?

Huh. You must have very selective reading. Did you not see all those posts explaining to you that IT'S A MATTER OF INTERPRETATION?

Or do you live in an alternate reality where words are some sort of magical entities that have absolute power and control over people's minds?


Maybe you are not intpreting intreptation the same way I am. ( then would that sentence make sense?) Here is the idea behind it:

1 : to explain or tell the meaning of : present in understandable terms
2 : to conceive in the light of individual belief, judgment, or circumstance

Really, help me out here, why can you not understand this? Why can you not even acknowledge these arguments?

	04-04-2003 07:59									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Don't assume that kids can't recognize basic differences in context just because you can't...

Argh!

Seriously, I'm out of here.

I'm dealing with ****ing morons who want to justify their casual use of "gay" as an insult because they don't know any better.

Gay people are here telling them we're offended by it, but they continue to insist it's alright.

You are all seriously disgusting individuals. Scum.

	04-04-2003 08:00									#134
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quote: Your above story isn't a suitable comparison. If you have worked out an arragement with your friend that slurs are fine so long as everyone realizes they are in good fun, that's your business. But to expect people not in on the arrangement to not be offended when they hear you say it...please.

The point you are missing is that society as a whole has settled on a new meaning for "gay". Just as my group of friends has decided that "jewish" or "white" can have meanings different from their ethnic ones, society (primarily the society of the youth) have decided that "gay" can be used as a synonym for "lame", in addition to meaning "homosexual" and "happy". Contemporary society has agree on a new usage of the word "gay" and it's futile for you and Asher to try and stop it. The word "gay" has developed yet another meaning. You may not like it, but you'll have to get used to it.

We certainly shouldn't be punishing kids for using the slang of their peer group...

quote: And would you possibly assert that the origin of the use of that phrase is in no way related to the hurtful stereotypes against Jews?

When did Jews become associated with videogame defensive backs making absurd interceptions?

	04-04-2003 08:02									#135
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye quote: So it's similar in some respects, different in others. Big deal. It's not just different, it's the opposite! quote: Well you are obviously too dopey to see that two words might have different histories Except in this case they don't.

Duh. The N-word went from being an insult to being a term of comradeship among black youth. The term gay went from being an insult to being a PC term and an insult. The meanings forked. In both cases we have a word that came to have a changed meaning based on the use of a speech community. The N-word is somewhat more analogous to fork one and not 2.

quote: Besides, even were that ridiculous notion true, it's still a moot point as long as a pre-existing group already is identified by the same word. In other words, if you invented a new meaning for "Latino" that meant "worthless", Latinos would be be justified in being offended, even if the "new" meaning for "Latino" had some other origin.

That's not my claim. You need to read properly.

	04-04-2003 08:02									#136
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quote: Argh! Seriously, I'm out of here. I'm dealing with ****ing morons who want to justify their casual use of "gay" as an insult because they don't know any better. Gay people are here telling them we're offended by it, but they continue to insist it's alright. You are all seriously disgusting individuals. Scum.

Ohh, boo ****ing hoo...

Go ahead and leave; you aren't adding anything to the debate anyway.

	04-04-2003 08:03									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon My logic is "that was then, this is now". The use of the word gay as a term of mild insult is very recent. We are old men, Boris. Teens have new slang.

Not so recent to me, as I already stated I can remember it being used as such when I was in highschool and middle school.

quote: Sure it's simpler, but it doesn't really provide an explanation. You seem now to be saying that teens magically decided to use the term "gay". Perhaps they did, but that flies in the face of the fact that most changes in linguistic usage are evolutionary rather than instantaneous.

You're just making up that I've said something I haven't. When did I assert teens just magically started using it? In fact, I gave by thoughts on how it originated--at a time when being gay was viewed as an overwhelmingly bad thing, it of course was a terrible insult to call someone or something "gay," as that meant you were either homosexual or as bad as homosexuals. It's that simple.

quote: And it isn't reinforcing cultural notions amongst teens, who know very well what they mean.

Gee, since you've never been a gay teenager who is bombarded with these notions, I'll just have to take your opinion here as being woefully ignorant.

	04-04-2003 08:04									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Huh. You must have very selective reading. Did you not see all those posts explaining to you that IT'S A MATTER OF INTERPRETATION? s?

This has been dispensed with. The meaning of a word is not its interpretation; it is is normal use by a speech community, which can change.

	04-04-2003 08:06									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The point you are missing is that society as a whole has settled on a new meaning for "gay". Just as my group of friends has decided that "jewish" or "white" can have meanings different from their ethnic ones, society (primarily the society of the youth) have decided that "gay" can be used as a synonym for "lame", in addition to meaning "homosexual" and "happy". Contemporary society has agree on a new usage of the word "gay" and it's futile for you and Asher to try and stop it. The word "gay" has developed yet another meaning. You may not like it, but you'll have to get used to it.

This is bullshit, because society has done NO such thing. It is not commonly used EXCEPT in teenage society. In the vast majority of the English-speaking world, it is an unacceptable use of the word. Once you get beyond the narrow confines of your own teenage world and Nebraska, you'll learn this. The entire reason this kid was punished is because MOST people don't think that usage is acceptable in a school environment.

And you still ducked the point about the "Jew" argument.

quote: We certainly shouldn't be punishing kids for using the slang of their peer group...

So kids should be able to say "****" in school with impunity? Good logic!

At any rate, I already gave my opinion about the punishment.

	04-04-2003 08:09									#140
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Hmm, pretty good debate, aside from the name-calling. I think Ag's strongest point is the "contemporary use" arguement, which is very strong. But at the end of the day, I find my self siding with Boris and co. The "Jew" or "nigger-rigged" arguement is hard to ignore. Props to Ag though.

	04-04-2003 08:11									#141
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quote: It is not commonly used EXCEPT in teenage society. In the vast majority of the English-speaking world, it is an unacceptable use of the word. Once you get beyond the narrow confines of your own teenage world and Nebraska, you'll learn this. The entire reason this kid was punished is because MOST people don't think that usage is acceptable in a school environment.

I'm a 23 year old college senior in the part of the US that is the absolute last to catch on to new cultural developments, yet everyone in my peer group uses "gay" as a synonym for "lame". This is a widespread meaning, whether you realize it or not.

Watch an episode of South Park, for god's sake, and then try to tell me that the new meaning of gay isn't mainstream...

	04-04-2003 08:11									#142
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Monkie, when did you become pageant judge?

	04-04-2003 08:11									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Does it embarass you that the chief dolt on Apolyton puts you to absolute shame?

No it makes me laugh that he thinks he does.

quote: Nonsense, as a member of the "speech community" (i.e. teens) in which it is used, I can tell you that the vast majority of people assume "gay" to refer to "gay people", and not any of the high-strung examples you've pathetically tried to assemble here.

quote: Wow! What a coincidence. They're not two different meanings, it's the same meaning with two different interpretations.

So "lame" meaning stupid, means the same as "lame" meaning "can't walk properly" but we interpret it differently? So anyone who reads the Concise Oxford Dictionary and sees the three separate meanings given for lame are in fact the same meaning but we interpret it differently. Now that's lame (meaning 2). If I interpret "lame" as meaning "stupid" when someone else meant "can't walk properly" that just makes me wrong, because that's not what the speaker meant.

I hate to break it to you Asher, but words (as in combinations of letters or sounds) come to have different meanings based on historically evolved usage. This is what has happened with gay.

quote: Morons and bigots interpret the sexuality as stupid and bad, and use it as an insult. Next thing you know, everyone uses the word as an insult casually and it's suddenly a completely separate word!

Da da da da DAH, BAM BAM, BAM BAM.

I already said why I thought this was wrong.

	04-04-2003 08:13									#144
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quote: Gee, since you've never been a gay teenager who is bombarded with these notions, I'll just have to take your opinion here as being woefully ignorant.

That's a feeble argument to fall back on, Boris.

You want the approval of society, you have to show us how the insult affects you. Don't recoil and say, you can't understand, try to show us what you have been through.

Now I agree, there are hateful terms for homosexuals, I'm not going to say them. However, 'gay' is not one of them.

	04-04-2003 08:14									#145
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quote: The point you are missing is that society as a whole (...) kids for using the slang of their peer group

Uh, which is it - society as a whole, or teenage slang?

quote: You may not like it, but you'll have to get used to it.

So, your position is that offensive slurs should be simply accepted? Are you saying that terms like "nigger-rig", "jew" and "gyp" - in their derogatory senses - should not be discouraged from use in public venues such as schools? I would really like to know your answer to this question, as that is exactly what you seem to be saying.

	04-04-2003 08:14									#146
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quote: Props to Ag though.

Yes, props to Agathon; our side would be finished if it weren't for him, as I can't be arsed to care that much about this debate. I keep having flashbacks of the last time Asher called me a "bigot" for using a common term...

	04-04-2003 08:16									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I'm a 23 year old college senior in the part of the US that is the absolute last to catch on to new cultural developments, yet everyone in my peer group uses "gay" as a synonym for "lame". This is a widespread meaning, whether you realize it or not.

Well, you have to forgive me for the age mistake, I was going by behavior.

I live in a city which is probably at the forefront of any trend, and which draws people from all over the country. I have friends here from all walks of live and every region, and NONE of them use "gay" in that manner. I've only heard in that way a few times, and once a coworker was chastised by her middle-aged white boss for using it because, "that's not appropriate language."

quote: Watch an episode of South Park, for god's sake, and then try to tell me that the new meaning of gay isn't mainstream...

Southpark caters to...youth? ANd didn't I say that's the only group it is used in? Do you see shows on network TV depicting anyone using that form of the word? Of course not. Why? Because most people find it offensive. Citing a show designed to offend everyone imaginable as an example of why the word shouldn't be considered offensive is pretty, erm, lame.

	04-04-2003 08:17									#148
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quote: Uh, which is it - society as a whole, or teenage slang?

Sorry for the unclear terminology. "Youth society" would be the best term; the new meaning of "gay" is in common usage amongst young people.

quote: So, your position is that offensive slurs should be simply accepted?

No, my position is that "gay" isn't an offensive slur and anyone who considers it such is grossly misinterpreting the intent of the new meaning.

	04-04-2003 08:18									#149
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 That's a feeble argument to fall back on, Boris. You want the approval of society, you have to show us how the insult affects you. Don't recoil and say, you can't understand, try to show us what you have been through.

Since I already explained the negative impact of this usage of the term on gay teens, I have to wonder at your reading skills.

And "gay" is an offensive term when it is used as a synonym for stupid/bad. That's what this debate is about.

	04-04-2003 08:19									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Yes, props to Agathon; our side would be finished if it weren't for him, as I can't be arsed to care that much about this debate. I keep having flashbacks of the last time Asher called me a "bigot" for using a common term...

That's because you have no side, Agathon is a professional bullshitter. That's what philosophers these days do.

He takes incredibly stupid and inept arguments, tries to paint them as valid and acceptable. It's what he does for a living.

And I didn't call you a bigot, I said people in your positions are either bigots or morons.

I don't believe you're a bigot, I just think you're incapable of understanding it.

obi:

quote: Now I agree, there are hateful terms for homosexuals, I'm not going to say them. However, 'gay' is not one of them.

Are you kidding?
'gay' is not hateful.

Gays do consider it hateful that some idiots like to use a word (conveniently matching their sexual orientation) as an insult. THAT is hateful. The word itself is not, but using the word as an insult for everything is a hateful concept in and of itself.

I realize you don't think it's valid that we can say you wouldn't understand. But it's damn true. You have no idea what a gay teenager goes through, and the people here who do have some idea of what a gay teenager goes through is telling you guys, point blank, that it is both offensive and hurtful even though it's not directly intended to insult homosexuals by most people these days.

You guys can't seem to accept that. You want to ignore it. Why? I don't know. Maybe you guys can't admit you're wrong about this, maybe you guys are just used to saying it and want to convince yourself you're not hurting anyone by it.

You are.

I apologize for getting a bit racy about it, but it's a very sensitive subject to me.