09-04-2003 15:24									#31
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Exactly, it is a gamble, but one certainly worth taking. Odd of 61% are acceptable IMHO - and the benefit of getting to our GA a few turns early would make a big difference at this stage.

More like a gigantic difference. Getting in our GA four turns earlier could prove to be critical if Vox's claims that they are invading Bob are a lie.

	09-04-2003 15:32									#32
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If we loose both battles, we should move our (iron) warrior 3.
(WC retreats-> IM attacks WC-> get countered by (iron) worker.

	09-04-2003 15:38									#33
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If our initial WC retreats and gets killed by an immortal, we have three WCs that could move into position to attack. (We really should have had all our WCs where the one that's in a position to attack now is.)

The worst case situation would be if the WC gets killed rather than retreating (which is probably actually the more likely outcome if it doesn't win) and then Ouch loses. That combination would give Vox a veteran immortal. But odds are in our favor, and fighting battles on favorable odds when practical is an opportunity to be forfeited only when there is a clear expectation of better odds later.

I've got to get some sleep. I'll check back in before I go to work.

	09-04-2003 15:39									#34
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We don't have a Mutual defense agreement signed with anyone, have we?
-
And should we look for some extra gold from some other teams?
Something that could pay for to go ahead for feudalism while being able to keep rushing a couple more units.
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Can we get Lego to officially to declare war on VoX (might hold others from geting any funny ideas, if they havn't had already of-course)

	09-04-2003 16:07									#35
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Military: the plan to attack the reg immortal with a WC and then get Grog to flee, or attack the reg immortal with Grog if the WC fails seems excellent. The odds are in our favor, and we get to our GA earlier, while Vox would have to wait at least several turns before they can get their own GA (if at all). Of course, that's assuming that they're not already in their GA, which is likely, since if any immortal battles took place we should have heard about it (rants like "Our Immortals ARE immortal!" from Voxians or "Your Immortals are not immortal after all!" from Bobians).
Our advantages: we've got several advantages over Vox. We have double their amount of cities; we are ranked 1st place in Mfg. Goods, GNP and Productivity, while Vox is ranked last in all or second to last (more likely last in all those categories if you ask me, with the scores and info from Vox's maps taken into consideration); Vox have been pop-rushing spearmen in Dissidentville (and possibly in other cities), which means that they might get a short-term, defensive advantage, but it won't last in the long term; and finally, we've got a great road network, while the immortals will be treading at 1 tile per turn.
Getting extra gold to go ahead for Feudalism: yesterday, MasterZen told me that GoW would be really interested in a deal where they'd get Feudalism very very soon and before anyone else on Bob. If they pay us the regular 200 gold, plus 50-60 gold for getting Feudalism first and within ~3 turns, and if they do it this turn, then I think we can continue researching at full or near to full speed while still making enough money to rush the aqueduct and upgrade warriors.
Lego: dunno how getting Lego to declare war on Vox could possibly help.

	09-04-2003 16:11									#36
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The Lego thing could hold others from swithching sides..

	09-04-2003 16:24									#37
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Maybe... but they would probably require some payment in exchange for this. I don't think we can afford buying alliances which have mostly a psychological effect (IMHO).
If we could get it for free though (or in exchange for some intelligence or other items that don't really cost anything), then I'm all for it!

	09-04-2003 16:53									#38
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How about we protect them from being invaded from Vox

	09-04-2003 16:58									#39
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May I send GoW a diplomatic message, asking if they'd be willing to pay extra if we could deliver Feudalism in 3 turns and give it to them several turns before anyone else will have it?

	09-04-2003 17:08									#40
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Let's not start doing things to hastely.

	09-04-2003 17:17									#41
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Yeah, for all we know GoW could be at war with us in a few turns. We're still not certain that they don't have an alliance with Vox against us.

	09-04-2003 17:23									#42
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I posted a draft on the GoW comments thread. Please comment ASAP.

	09-04-2003 18:36									#43
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Definitely hit the southernmost immortal with our WC. If we kill him, great. If we knock him to 1 hp, hit him with the warrior. If not... I guess we try to have the warrior run away.

All development plans are now out the window. We need an army, pronto.

-Arrian

	09-04-2003 19:57									#44
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Shall I go ahead and do the WC attack before I go to work so the rest of the planning can take into consideration whether or not we're in our GA? Edit: That would have an especially huge effect on our prospects of being able to deliver Feudalism quickly while still upgrading our warriors.

	09-04-2003 20:01									#45
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I don't think we should abandon our economy completely.

Cyclone should switch to Workers right now. It may be some time before we can reasonably afford to Settle any more city sites. EotS to a Barracks is a good idea, but we'll need the extra workers to get it up to 30 shields per turn. Hurricane is going to be available to flood with Horsemen and Swords in just 6 turns, with EotS pitching in shortly after.

Instead of building up Tempest, lets get EotS built up ASAP. All (or most) Workers near Tempest head to EotS. This doubles as helping us keep our defenses more focused, not having to worry about defending the Workers. We need to mine each of the plains, and pump up EotS to size 12. Should take us 3-4 turns. Our Sword upgrades can hold out until then. With 2 cities pumping out a Horse/Sword every turn starting in 5 (I think our GA would cut off a turn, possibly 2, on the Pyramids) we can roll over Vox.

	09-04-2003 20:33									#46
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Nathan, I say yes.

Aeson,

Ok, not completely, but I'm really worried about immortals coming down those mountains. We need pikemen (spears until feudalism, obviously) up there.

Once I'm confident we can defend ourselves (I really don't have a good concept of how many immortals we're facing, and how many they can produce during their GA to throw at us), I'll be less concerned about diverting resources to civilian production.

I'm also concerned about their ability to land immortals from galleys. They really blew it by landing up in the NE to try and kill a lone warrior. They should have come down and had a shot at a city - go for the jugular. We would have been hard pressed to deal with that. *shudder*

-Arrian

	09-04-2003 20:44									#47
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Oh, one more thing:

Hold off on Feudalism for a bit. We need more money, and I don't want to have to build those 40-shield Med Infs and 30-shield pikemen yet. I'd rather build 20-shield spears and 30-shield swords while staying in range of getting feudalism easily (if we can work it so that we can turn research back on and get Feud in 1 turn, that would be perfect) so we can take advantage of upgrades.

-Arrian

	09-04-2003 20:50									#48
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They have 6 cities. What gov are they in? Are they still in despotism? What is that 24 free units? Their econ can't be good, so even at 100%, they could probably only support what, another 20-30 units? Plus figure in probably at least two garrison units per southern city at least and two-three galleys. If they do land a force on bob, that detracts even more. Before Beta said that they had 6 imms and 6 spears and 2 galleys and a settler to land on Bob. If that mission goes ahead, and they land that entire force, there will be even less for the southern front.


Of course, with the assassination of Grog, Vox has entered their GA.



I think this war just shows that the Vox team is getting tired of the game and wanted to spice it up a bit, my be is that they want to go out in a blaze of glory and dont' really care to win. Seriously, why attack now, wouldn't you want a larger first strike? two immortals five spaces from a city is hardly an invasion force. I was pulling off better attacks my first game of Civ3

	09-04-2003 20:57									#49
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quote: Of course, with the assassination of Grog, Vox has entered their GA...

[Khan]I SHALL AVENGE YOU![/KHAN]

quote: I think this war just shows that the Vox team is getting tired of the game and wanted to spice it up a bit

I agree. I'm actually relatively pleased they gave us such a valid pretext to destroy them. Granted, the first few turns of war may be touch-and-go, but after that we outta flatten them.

-Arrian

	09-04-2003 21:02									#50
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Vox had to take out Grog before they could launch a really serious invasion without our seeing it. If they're serious, the immortals on the eastern coast are merely a side show. Although I think there's a fairly strong possibility of a "go out in a blaze of glory" motive; I'd thought about that possibility myself.

	09-04-2003 21:04									#51
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I certainly hope their goal is to go out in a blaze of glory, because if the Bob landing is a ruse and they hit us with everything they have, we could lose cities before we get the firepower to fight back effectively.

	09-04-2003 21:10									#52
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Well, if they take/raze one of our northern 1-2 shield cities, it's not so hard to take. We shouldn't waste too many resources to defend them. What we need to defend with teeth and claws is Tempest and all what's south of it.

	09-04-2003 21:37									#53
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Of course, with the assassination of Grog, Vox has entered their GA.

Now wait a minute, how could they have killed Grog?
Which warrior is Grog anyway? The one currently threatened by two immortals?

Would someone clear things up for me please? Have Vox actually killed any of our units yet, or was Asleep simply referring to Grog as effectively dead?
If the latter, then it's not necessarily true. In fact, chances are that he'd survive (over 70%; I could calculate the exact probably if you'd like me to). I'm also hoping that we could deny Vox its GA for at least a few more turns.

	09-04-2003 21:40									#54
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Grog was the warrior north of Dissidentville who was watching the road. He's gone now - almost certainly killed by an Immortal.

	09-04-2003 22:03									#55
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Oh, right. Thanks for clearing things up for me.
Btw, his chances against a regular immortal were 25.2%.

	09-04-2003 23:49									#56
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How much cash do we have exactly?

	10-04-2003 00:22									#57
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Nice avatar SR
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Although I don't think so myself, someone's got to mention it.
The two immortals arn't a decoy are they.

	10-04-2003 00:28									#58
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Aeson: the screenshots show 191 gold, +65 per turn with research turned off.

	10-04-2003 00:57									#59
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quote: Originally posted by alva The two immortals arn't a decoy are they.

Well... they could try to head for the Northenmost Western mountain. If the galley returns to pick up some more immortals, they could hope to reach at roughly the same time with at least 4 immortals. I can certainly understand their decision to remove the scout anyway, so that we don't know when a galley would come.

Something striked me from BH's "Save is here" thread: it said "The save is here. The vote is in.". Would that mean that they first declared war, before really moving their units in position as they were still discussing it? It could mean that D-ville would be ill defended for the moment. But it doesn't explain what 1 or 2 immortals were doing in a galley of our coast at exactly the right time. My guess is that this was all decided 2-3 turns ago, right before offering us the WM for 95 gold deal.

D-Ville could have pop-rushed a barracks, and have been focusing on warriors only before that. Did we actually see a reg spear moving North from it?

DeepO

	10-04-2003 01:11									#60
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And the 4 upgrades leaves us with 71...

If Vox really is going to hit GoW, that only leaves 4-5 Immortals for them to hit us with, which we can deal with rather easily. Let's save up as much gold as we can... it might turn out we don't need to upgrade any more Swords at this time, and an Aquaduct in Tempest is going to pay off several times over in our GA.

If we have to we can upgrade more Swords, but if we keep Vox from landing on the mountains by Hurricane we have enough warning time in all directions to upgrade and be ready for anything they can do at this point (if we move as detailed in the other thread). We don't need to commit our gold until after the threat is known.