09-04-2003 00:35									#1
	Turn 92, 725 BC Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- Research at 80%, Feudalism in 3 turns. Should be possible to get it in 2.
- Luxuries at 20%
- 178 gold cash, -37/turn. (unsure, please confirm)

Urgent questions:
- Do we want to push ahead to get Feudalism as quickly as possible?
- Do we want to go ahead and upgrade a warrior or two to try to stop being weak compared with Vox?
- Where do we want our current settler to settle?
- Where do we want to settle next after that?
- Shouldn't we decide on a final plan to settle our lands up to the border with Vox so that we don't have to make rush decisions or hold the save just to discuss where to send settlers?

Military:

1) Make sure all available spearmen are within 1-turn movement of the northern mountains (arashi, I believe was Aeson's suggestion)

2) Upgrade warriors to swords (Nathan has already done)

3) Attack southernmost Immortal (regular, IIRC) with our closest WC. If succesful, retreat our warrior to closest city w/barracks. If not, and Immortal has 1hp remaining, attack immortal with warrior. If immortal survives with more hp... discuss further.
EDIT: WC attack failed miserably. Disband warrior to prevent promotion of immortal.
-Arrian

Economy:
(UPDATED due to Vox)
- Worker 887 of Sandstorm move 24 to build road.
- Worker 23 of Tempest start mine.
- EotS' new Worker move 1 and mine.
- Workers(3) 6 of Olibanum Gale build road.

- Tempest uses 2 FP's and 3 mined hills. +5 food, growth in 4.
- Cyclone switches to 2 turn (1 turn when our GA hits) Workers.
- Start growing EotS and switch to a Barracks.

Diplomacy:
- Vox is expected to send an offer of their WM for 95 gold. Unless something drastic happens, we accept (supported unanimously or by a great majority).

Thread library:
- Standing orders for workers (Orders last revised April 5.)

Last edited by Aeson on 10-04-2003 at 00:26

	09-04-2003 04:31									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We'll have a road to the N Coast Desert of Tears site by the time the next Settler needs it. I'd vote for our next city there, followed by the northernmost border treaty one.

This should allow us to ask for possession of the Mountain in the area within the next few turns, increasing our warning time and generally giving us a better view of what Vox is doing.

Since we aren't building up Tempest quite so fast, EotS doesn't need to build any more Workers, and can start building up pop and improvements now. We still could trade some shields for food by building another Worker to be added back post-7 though.

Bolderberg might be a good canidate to pop out a Settler to help us finish off the rest of our city sites quickly. Tornado as well. It works best if the Settler builds the turn after the Pyramids, but I don't think we can swing it. They are both at 7 or 8 shields per turn right? If Bolderberg builds a Settler it's not much of a loss if any though, given it's slow growth rate right now. It will free up 4 turns in Cyclone, which could mean 4 pop points... more than making up the difference.

	09-04-2003 06:42									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We can get one more settler out of Cyclone after the current one before our GA starts (with the settler completing the turn we finish the Pyramids). If Bolderberg switches to a settler, it can finish its settler at the same time, giving us the three settlers we need for our three remaining city sites. (And we can get it back up to two food surplus per turn while it builds the settler.) Does that sound like the best way to get our settlers and still get good value from our GA?

	09-04-2003 09:03									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think so. Bolderberg should be at ~10 shields per turn at the start of the GA, and needs to get the Hill mined before it gets to 15. So the lost pop there the first few turns of the GA shouldn't make a big difference to it's production.

	09-04-2003 12:35									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Please hold this turn for the longest possible period of time.

	09-04-2003 13:01									#6
	Tired of ads?

Right.

	09-04-2003 13:28									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Vox did complete the world map deal, so there are a lot of screenshots to send. Vox has about 43 tiles north of the chokepoint, a bit higher than the around 30 they claimed and (at least after chopping) significantly better territory. If they had used it properly, they could almost certainly have taken us out. Their colony is their only source of iron.

Grog is dead. We need the Pyramids as a place to bury his body with the highest possible honors.

Vox has two immortals coming down the west coast and trying to box Ouch in. One is in striking range of a WC, and I'm inclined to attempt the attack. Whoever wins the fight will get a much-needed production boost, but if we don't win with our WC, Vox is practically guaranteed to get their GA killing Ouch next turn. Vox also has a galley sailing down the coast toward our iron at Hurricane (not that they probably know that).

We have gold for four warrior upgrades this turn and (even without our GA triggered) two more next turn.

Nathan

Last edited by nbarclay on 09-04-2003 at 13:48

	09-04-2003 13:35									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Vox has two immortals coming down the west coast and trying to box Ouch in. One is in striking range of a WC, and I'm inclined to attempt the attack. Whoever wins the fight will get a much-needed production boost, but if we don't win with our WC, Vox is practically guaranteed to get their GA killing Ouch next turn.

I absolutely agree with attacking with our WC. Getting into our GA a few turns early would be a great boost.

quote: Vox also has a galley sailing down the coast.

Can you see if it is loaded?

	09-04-2003 13:41									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm not aware of any way to know whether or nog a galley has something in it. Is anyone else?

Preliminary screenshots sent.

	09-04-2003 13:47									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

By the way, I'm sure there are those who would appreciate it if someone would upload the screenshots either to this thread or to a separate thread. I don't have time to figure out how to do it and then do it right now.

	09-04-2003 13:53									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay By the way, I'm sure there are those who would appreciate it if someone would upload the screenshots either to this thread or to a separate thread. I don't have time to figure out how to do it and then do it right now.

I'm on it.

	09-04-2003 14:01									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I'm not aware of any way to know whether or nog a galley has something in it. Is anyone else?

Sorry, it's impossible. My bad - I always forget that.

	09-04-2003 14:28									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Grog is dead. We need the Pyramids as a place to bury his body with the highest possible honors. Vox has two immortals coming down the west coast and trying to box Ouch in. One is in striking range of a WC, and I'm inclined to attempt the attack. Whoever wins the fight will get a much-needed production boost, but if we don't win with our WC, Vox is practically guaranteed to get their GA killing Ouch next turn.

Vox most likely got the GA from killing Grog.

I would urge conservation of force. This war is very uneven in force. We must tip that balance our way.

After upgrading 4 warriors, what are we compared to them?

	09-04-2003 14:35									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Tempest is 2 to Barracks. We can make that 1. Switch from FP to mined hill.

We can get EotS to a 5 turn Barracks by switching to max production.

Cyclone also can get to 5 turn, or less.

Arashi will have to starve, but can make a Barracks in 4 turns.

The pyramids are complete in 4 turns. Then the wrath of the Hurricane can be upon them.

How long do we have?

	09-04-2003 14:41									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

After two warrior upgrades, and still after four, we are average relative to GoW and ND and weak relative to Vox, Lego, and RP. (I didn't think to check after zero and one upgrades, but last turn, we were average compared with GoW and weak compared with ND.) Vox is very possibly strong relative to both GoW and ND, which may be what gave them the confidence to pull this stunt.

You're right about Vox's probably already being in their GA, but I think that makes it all the more important for us to trigger ours. And if we can rescue Ouch, that's one more swordsman we have once he gets back to Hurricane. The fight would be a vet WC against a regular immortal, and if the WC loses, Ouch can take his chances attacking the (hopefully seriously wounded) immortal. His odds attacking an immortal are a lot better than his odds being attacked by one. I'm also inclined to pull Hack back for upgrade; we need forces more than we need pickets right now.

Nathan

	09-04-2003 14:44									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Vox most likely got the GA from killing Grog.

This reminds me: could anyone check which government Vox is at?
If they're at Despotism, then their GA would mean near to nothing to us.

	09-04-2003 14:47									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

They're still in Despotism, but very few of their tiles were generating two shields or gold before their GA, so they'll still get almost as much benefit as if they were in a more advanced government.

	09-04-2003 14:49									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Odds of winning a fight between our vet WC and Vox's reg immortal are 61.1%. Odds of winning a fight between our reg warrior and a wounded Voxian immortal with 1HP are 67.6%.
Handy stuff, these combat calculators are.

	09-04-2003 14:49									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If that Galley keeps coming south it could dump 2 Immortals on the doorstep of Hurricane - we can not afford to lose that city under any circumstances.

	09-04-2003 14:51									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

They are despots.

	09-04-2003 14:51									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Also, am I the only person who finds it odd that Vox would complete the World Map deal and declare war on the same turn?

	09-04-2003 14:52									#22
	Get a bigger avatar today!

2 less swords they face.

This is live or die, from their POV.

	09-04-2003 15:00									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I just realized that at least one of the immortals Vox is boxing Ouch in with has to have come from the galley. Otherwise, we would have seen him last turn. That means there's an excellent chance they landed both immortals from the galley - one north and one south - which would make killing one of the immortals with a WC even more useful.

	09-04-2003 15:04									#24
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Also, am I the only person who finds it odd that Vox would complete the World Map deal and declare war on the same turn?

It's actually not all that unreasonable. If the tide turns enough in our favor that we can invade the lands that the map shows us, they're probably doomed anyhow. And getting two or three extra immortal upgrades at the start of the war is worth a lot.

	09-04-2003 15:06									#25
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay ...which would make killing one of the immortals with a WC even more useful.

Agreed, but since we have only one WC in range, it's a bit of a gamble.

	09-04-2003 15:08									#26
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I just realized that at least one of the immortals Vox is boxing Ouch in with has to have come from the galley. Otherwise, we would have seen him last turn. That means there's an excellent chance they landed both immortals from the galley - one north and one south - which would make killing one of the immortals with a WC even more useful.

Good catch . Yeah, the Immortal that's 1 of Ouch must have come from the galley, which makes it very likely the one 8 of him did too. At the most that Galley can only contain one Immortal instead of two.

Am I right in saying that we can be sure that there is only one Galley on that tile, and that is isn't a stack of two?

	09-04-2003 15:12									#27
	Remove this text

Only one galley there, confirmed.

	09-04-2003 15:15									#28
	Put an end to popups!

It's just one, total ship numbers show up in the same way as others units with the extra ' - '. There is just no way to check what's inside them.
-
That galley being empty is :relieved:
-
Damned, just now that we lost our leader, we get attacked...Considering the circomstances, perhaps SR can extend his post as Grand Poobah for a while

	09-04-2003 15:17									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Agreed, but since we have only one WC in range, it's a bit of a gamble.

A gamble in our favor, both in terms of odds and in terms of value for the winner. The gamble of refusing to attack is far worse: almost guaranteed loss of a prospective swordsman and missing the chance to more likely than not reduce Vox's force of immortals by one. Edit: And think what other mischief that immortal might cause if we don't deal with him now.

	09-04-2003 15:21									#30
	Put an end to popups!

Exactly, it is a gamble, but one certainly worth taking. Odd of 61% are acceptable IMHO - and the benefit of getting to our GA a few turns early would make a big difference at this stage.