09-04-2003 03:25									#31
	Re: Hey Hey USA, how many journalists did you kill today? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Man, I can't believe it. I was watching live coverage of the war last night and an ADTV cameraman had a really good shot of two Abrams on a bridge in Baghdad. They must have thought he was a sniper because they aimed machine gun fire at him. Undeterred by the bullets he got up and kept filming. Then one of the tanks blew up the building he was in. Luckily, he survived. Now news that a whole lot more journalists have been killed or injured today. Is their some vendetta against the press in Centcom or are the soldiers stupider than their munitions?

"Infantry 4 o'clock, on the bridge, 300 meters!"

"Hey, maybe that's a cameraman instead of an ATGM eam. Let's just sit here and see if he fires at us, we've got that GI insurance for our families"

"Fire MG over his head, get him the **** out of here, whatever he is"

(fires)

(dumbass pops up again)

"ATGM team up! No ****ing cameraman is that ****ing stupid"

"Load HE!"

"UP!"

...

Something like that. Anyone with a lick of common sense is going to get the hell out of Dodge when two M1A1's start to care.

Wasn't it you, (it sure was some commie) that said war correspondents know the risks they're taking when I pointed out that in the last Gulf War, the Iraqis had their Baghdad southern sector air defense command and contol facilities in the basement of the al Rashid hotel, where they also required foreign journalists to stay?

	09-04-2003 03:26									#32
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quote: Baghdad is a combat zone, and Saddam's forces have proved themselves more than willing to hide out in civilian compounds in the past to try and evade our gunfire.

all irrelevant under the specific data describing the situation (no fire from hotel, which was a known location of all journalists in bagdad)

	09-04-2003 03:27									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I never said otherwise. (Why do so many people equate speaking against america with supporting saddam?

Cause thats always been our logic historically!

Iraqi war is just the witch hunt thats in style now.

	09-04-2003 03:32									#34
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quote: Now call me curmudgeonly, but isn't it customary to identify one's target before aiming tank rounds at it?

Agathon, did the Americans not bomb 3 Canadians on training exercises? Friendly Fire is friendly fire, regardless of whether it hits journalists or combat troops.

	09-04-2003 03:35									#35
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quote: Something like that. Anyone with a lick of common sense is going to get the hell out of Dodge when two M1A1's start to care.

the tanks were 2klm away from the hotel and were just sitting there for hours....

	09-04-2003 03:57									#36
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: Baghdad is a combat zone, and Saddam's forces have proved themselves more than willing to hide out in civilian compounds in the past to try and evade our gunfire. all irrelevant under the specific data describing the situation (no fire from hotel, which was a known location of all journalists in bagdad)

This is a war, not peacekeeping. Nobody has to wait for the other SOB to shoot first.

In the post immediately above, you said the tanks were 2 km away. There are ATGMs that easily exceed that range, but with the gunner's sight (max 10x mag), there's no way for the gunner to tell that's someone with a camera.

There's also no way to tell if someone's shooting or about to shoot, there's just an apparent threat.

There's also the fact that it's a boxy tan concrete building, in a city full of boxy tan concrete buildings. Sorry we didn't have time to issue everyone our new 500,000 page manual "A picture book of Baghdad: Every conveivable view of every conceivable building that you might someday be maybe be told you probably shouldn't shoot at without good reason."

	09-04-2003 03:58									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: Something like that. Anyone with a lick of common sense is going to get the hell out of Dodge when two M1A1's start to care. the tanks were 2klm away from the hotel and were just sitting there for hours....

And then someone 2 klm away points a black object, that coould be an RPG launcher at them, FROM COVER, and they are supposed to wait until they find out if he's a cameraman or a soldier?

Get real.

ACK!

	09-04-2003 04:02									#38
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There aren't binoculars?

	09-04-2003 04:03									#39
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amazingly enough
a) there have been no other incidents of tanks shooting black objects 2klm away from them
b) journalists were aimed in three ocassions today (the other other were al jazeera and abu duabi offices geting bombed)

	09-04-2003 04:08									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger There aren't binoculars?

10x gunners sight, and the tank commander usually has an 8x set of binoculars, plus his 3x sight.

	09-04-2003 04:09									#41
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We just entered Baghdad recently, where many journalists are. It should be obivious that the situation is riskier for them now than it was a week ago.

MarkG, the soldiers believed they were being fired upon from the building, so they returned fire. While regrettable as an accident, the idea it was deliberate simply has no factual basis.

	09-04-2003 04:10									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG amazingly enough a) there have been no other incidents of tanks shooting black objects 2klm away from them

How would you or anyone else know? I'm sure tanks have been shooting at all sorts of interesting things, at all sorts of ranges.

quote: b) journalists were aimed in three ocassions today (the other other were al jazeera and abu duabi offices geting bombed)

Probably located from sat-phone comms. We're after people who use too many on-peak minutes, you know?

	09-04-2003 04:13									#43
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MtG: what does that mean? That anybody who uses a sat phone is a valid military target? Even if they're operating out of a location which they've reported to the US as being a news headquarter?

	09-04-2003 04:14									#44
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I still love how posters here think they can read minds and KNOW FOR SURE what somebody elses intent was.

	09-04-2003 04:21									#45
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat 10x gunners sight, and the tank commander usually has an 8x set of binoculars, plus his 3x sight.

Now, I'm not sure whether or not a 10X sight would bring 'em close enough to tell the difference between a hand-held AT unit and a camera, but my point is that they didn't just see him as a speck on the horizon...

Does a handheld AT round even go 2 km?

That one I'm willing to give a pass on, though. The one that seems suspicious is the bombing of known news headquarters...

	09-04-2003 04:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger MtG: what does that mean? That anybody who uses a sat phone is a valid military target? Even if they're operating out of a location which they've reported to the US as being a news headquarter?

I was being sarcastic. But no, I wouldn't be on the phone a lot if I was there. I'd be staying low and moving fast, figuring I'd have a shitload of video and stuff to file when the shooting died down.

	09-04-2003 04:35									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Now, I'm not sure whether or not a 10X sight would bring 'em close enough to tell the difference between a hand-held AT unit and a camera, but my point is that they didn't just see him as a speck on the horizon...

I'm guessing it's the same as seeing something at 200 meters. Now as an American that's all gibberish to me, but you should know how far that is.

quote: Does a handheld AT round even go 2 km?

I think they've had AT missles with 2km ranges since the Arab-Israeli wars.

	09-04-2003 05:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I was being sarcastic. But no, I wouldn't be on the phone a lot if I was there. I'd be staying low and moving fast, figuring I'd have a shitload of video and stuff to file when the shooting died down.

Ratings are right now. Tomorrow is too late for this war.

	09-04-2003 05:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X I'm guessing it's the same as seeing something at 200 meters. Now as an American that's all gibberish to me, but you should know how far that is.

Not quite the same. Aparent size is about right (not quite, but as long as target is pretty small then it's close). Difference is that there's 1800 extra metres of air between you and them. If there's temperature variations then you'll get additional waviness. If there's dust in the air then you'll get additional interference.

I do know what 200 metres is. I suspect you do too. And on a perfectly clear day with light coming from the right direction you would be able to tell. I don't know what it looked like, though...

quote: Does a handheld AT round even go 2 km?

Okay. Good to know. I'm surprised tanks can even survive against an enemy with a lot of these. I suppose the Iraqis don't qualify, though...

	09-04-2003 05:34									#50
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I think that the missles aren't very good against Abrams. Like, they'll prolly do something, especially against the roof armor, but you're still better off being the guy in the tank than the guy with the rocket. Or camera as the case may be.

	09-04-2003 05:36									#51
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Oh good, another thread where blow dried Napoleans decide what is best in a combat situation. The last I heard, this is a war. Sitting in an armchair really is not the best place to fight it.

	09-04-2003 05:54									#52
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Linc- One of these days you are going to troll yourself to a bad fate.

	09-04-2003 05:59									#53
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Seriously though, have you ever thought that we really do not have all the answers for people who are actually in the thick of a certain activity (in this case a war)?

	09-04-2003 05:59									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X I think that the missles aren't very good against Abrams. Like, they'll prolly do something, especially against the roof armor, but you're still better off being the guy in the tank than the guy with the rocket. Or camera as the case may be.

at the "or the camera" bit...

Oh, wait.

	09-04-2003 06:03									#55
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quote: Hey Hey USA, how many journalists did you kill today?

Not nearly enough. They aren't running in terror at the sight of us yet.

	09-04-2003 06:24									#56
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I think the US guys were just angry because nobody has surrendered to TV teams this time. This sounds suspiciously like an evil plot between TV teams and Iraqis...

	09-04-2003 07:59									#57
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This is war, accidents happen, soldiers are jittery and journalists know what they are being exposed at. So I really wouldn't be surprised that this is happening or will not happen in the future.


BTW, why do the right-wingers get so damn pissed when there types of threads are posted? It's pathetic, it's lame, and it just goes to show that these people don't really give a damn about anything that doesn't fall in line with their narrow and twisted definition of "patriotism". I mean, three posts in and they're already calling this a dork thread. If it's a dork thread why bother posting?

	09-04-2003 08:02									#58
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Bigot

	09-04-2003 08:17									#59
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dork thread

	09-04-2003 08:20									#60
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he who posts in a dork thread is by definition a dork