11-04-2003 22:54									#451
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Maybe they're "Puritan" mosques and universities? Fox? As opposed to the Communist-wannabe Newsletter?

I listen/watch/read from multiple sources CBS/ABC/PBS/BBC and so on.

	11-04-2003 22:54									#452
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand And thank YOU, Boris! Yes, what are the Iraqi citizens looting ? By golly, it's government offices, and Hussien family residences. Thank again for making that point, Boris. I knew there was a reason I left you off the shitforbrains list.

Right, how about the national museum, banks, the treasury, hospitals. Shopowners have had to take justice into their own hands, reporters have seen groups of vigilantes beating looters. A group of medical students and doctors following looters out of a hospital begging them to bring back supplies, all of it reported on CNN. Oh yeah, and buildings are burning, just a natural reaction to liberation right?

	11-04-2003 22:58									#453
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They just loot.

It is a complete anarchy and the suicide bombers have started.

The Brits in Basra attempt to put some kind of order but in Bagdat it's the chaos, apparently.

	11-04-2003 22:59									#454
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The country is in chaos and the US is just watching.

	11-04-2003 22:59									#455
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That said the civilian casualties, if someone can stand a cool head "counting" these well "sorry" but crimes!, were really, surprisingly low and the US was right about resistance in Bagdat, for now.


And MTG was also right about that.

	11-04-2003 23:00									#456
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Ill-informed, gsmoove.

That's ok, I was afraid that was happening too, but several sources, don't know about Fox, have reiterated government offices and Hussein residences.
CNN, MSNBC, ABC. Probably all too objective for the Che's, GePaps, and Zen's of the world.
Ok by me though.

Hmm. That includes several Arab agencies, too.
Go figure.

	11-04-2003 23:02									#457
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quote: just a natural reaction to liberation right?

Yes it is. There's going to be a period of lawlessness while the US forces are busy mopping up. Things will calm down once the US troops are free to take over police duties. Pretty obvious chain of events...

	11-04-2003 23:05									#458
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It would seem that perhaps all the dancing smileys were a tad premature.

	11-04-2003 23:06									#459
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The US is obligated to take over police duties immediately, instead they have orders to stand down and ignore much of the looting.

	11-04-2003 23:08									#460
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quote: The US is obligated to take over police duties immediately

Why? I'd like to see the US take over police duties as soon as possible, but they have more important things to do right now. The war isn't over yet.

	11-04-2003 23:09									#461
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Nope, the Iraqis are dancing alright, the ones that got new TVs, new furniture. Pictures of Iraqis looting a bank were hilarious, money all over, people throwing it up in the air, carrying huge stacks of it in their hands. One reporter saw a guy wheeling a gurney looted from a nearby hospital down the street.

	11-04-2003 23:12									#462
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: The US is obligated to take over police duties immediately Why? I'd like to see the US take over police duties as soon as possible, but they have more important things to do right now. The war isn't over yet.

Because as occupiers they are responsible for law and order. Whatever happens under their watch will be blamed on them. If they say they have more important things to do the world will quite clearly see them as being ill-prepared for the task at hand.

	11-04-2003 23:14									#463
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Hey, if you want to freak out about some looting, be my guest. Everything that is going on right now was to be expected, so you'll only embarass yourself by implying that it is a turn for the worse...

	11-04-2003 23:20									#464
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My, my. Look at this. Off Pakistan News site.



Dear Men and Women of the Military:



Thank you for your sacrifice and for dedicating your lives to making this a safer world. You are in our thoughts today -- and every day. We pray for your safe and speedy return.









I'd get more for you, but you can do it yourself.

	11-04-2003 23:21									#465
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The same could be said for freaking out about some dancing.

	11-04-2003 23:24									#466
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Ill-informed, gsmoove. That's ok, I was afraid that was happening too, but several sources, don't know about Fox, have reiterated government offices and Hussein residences. CNN, MSNBC, ABC. Probably all too objective for the Che's, GePaps, and Zen's of the world. Ok by me though. Hmm. That includes several Arab agencies, too. Go figure.

Even if that were the extent of it, which it isn't, that's all property of the whole people of Iraq, not just whoever can grab it. That loot could have been sold to raise money for the country. Now, not only don't they have that, they will have to buy evyerthing from scratch. Great way to start a new government. It is not, however, the extent of it. Looting isn't being contained to just government and Ba'ath party buildings.

On the good side, according to NPR, the residents of Saddam City have organized to supress looting in their neighborhood and have seized any loot that people try and bring back into the neighborhood and sent it to a nearby mosque. At least someone has some sense in thei heads.

	11-04-2003 23:25									#467
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You know, you have the mind Commie-wannabes look for. Empty.

	11-04-2003 23:25									#468
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quote: The same could be said for freaking out about some dancing.

I don't think I ever mentioned the dancing. I've been pretty focused on Lionel Richie...

	11-04-2003 23:26									#469
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"Even if that were the extent of it, which it isn't, that's all property of the whole people of Iraq, not just whoever can grab it. "


Ohhhh. I get it. Kind of like the oil wells Hussein lit up?
Point well-made, Che.

	11-04-2003 23:29									#470
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quote: Yes, what are the Iraqi citizens looting ? By golly, it's government offices, and Hussien family residences.

also hospitals, abandonded houses, cars in the middle of the street(after shooting their driver), etc etc....

	11-04-2003 23:32									#471
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Exactly like the oil wells Hussein lit up (or tried to). What seperates the destruction of the Iraqi people's property by Hussein and by a bunch of hooligans. Granted, Hussein was a mass murderer who turned Iraqi into an abatoir, but I'm not so sure that many of the people doing the looting aren't planning on dealing with their enemies in a similar manner as soon as we leave.

	11-04-2003 23:34									#472
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So now that warlords are already popping up, that two clerics were slaughtered in Najaf (at a US sponsored event) and that the University of Mosul was completely sacked, are you still dancing? Do you dance for the little boy with both his arms blown off and his whole family dead? Do you dance for the girl with half her brains missing? Do you dance for the increase in cancer that's going to appear where ever DU was used? Do you dance for the thousands of dead and the thousands of maimed and injured? Liberation is a wonderful thing, but it's not the reason for this war, just a happy side-effect to an otherwise criminal enterprise.

Che, it is clear that the clerics were killed because one was pro-Saddam and the other wanted to make peace with he pro-Saddam cleric.

There will be a period of time here where the people will have their revenge on the regime. This has to be expected.

There is little wonder why the murderous police state regime vanished. They know they are dead if caught by their former victims. I personally would like due process and trials, but the guilty must be punished.

As to the people taking back the loot of the Saddam regime, surely you cannot be against this? The regime plundered the Iraqi people for decades. The deserve to be plundered in turn.

	11-04-2003 23:39									#473
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 They just loot. It is a complete anarchy and the suicide bombers have started. The Brits in Basra attempt to put some kind of order but in Bagdat it's the chaos, apparently.

paiktis, surely your media shows that the people are angry at the Saddam regime and are taking revenge and are looting regime's buildings and residences. If it doesn't, you are again being victimized by propaganda.

	11-04-2003 23:45									#474
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Actually they are taking grain from stores (this can't be sadam's property), medecins from hospitals etc. Looting in general.

	11-04-2003 23:47									#475
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Propaganda is not whatever doesn't agree with what you're seeing BTW.

As said you have been conviently spared from all the suffering this war has brought and is bringing. And I'm afraid only pics and videos will conveince you.

	11-04-2003 23:50									#476
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The looting is not good...
The lack of basic services is not good...
People torching buildings is not good...

But it is really no surprise considering what these people have gone through under Saddams reign of terror.

It will take time to take control of the cities again. Again, this shouldn't surprise anybody, especially since the war is still going on.

	11-04-2003 23:56									#477
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Ned, even if as you say, the looting has only been contained to government building and Baath party residences it is not the PEOPLE taken back what has been stolen. It is criminals who happen to be lucky enough to live in the vicinity of these buildings. Wouldn't it be far better if these resources were confiscated and invested in the WHOLE of Iraq to benefit ALL the people.

	11-04-2003 23:59									#478
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The looting is not good... The lack of basic services is not good... People torching buildings is not good... But it is really no surprise considering what these people have gone through under Saddams reign of terror. It will take time to take control of the cities again. Again, this shouldn't surprise anybody, especially since the war is still going on.

If this shouldn't surprise anybody then perhaps US forces should have been better prepared when they entered Baghdad. As for being surprised I don't seem to remember Rumsfeld saying beforehand that there would be rampant looting in the streets of Baghdad. I just remember something about happy people dancing... and flowers.

	12-04-2003 00:03									#479
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 If this shouldn't surprise anybody then perhaps US forces should have been better prepared when they entered Baghdad.

Based on what many were saying here about 100,000's dead, and that Baghdad would be almost impossible to take... and that it would be a long battle... there have been many surprises.

The easy victory was indeed a surprise, and yeah, how could anybody have been prepared for that.

Order will be established... and anybody that thinks it can happen overnight just isn't being realistic.

	12-04-2003 00:12									#480
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Seriously, of course this could be expected Ming, its just another one of the traumatic effects of war. People on this thread seem to feel vindicated because a few hundred people were dancing in the streets, they are choosing not to be realistic. They wave off Iraqi missiles falling down into Baghdad, using of human shields and a whole list of other horrors as Saddam's fault and we shouldn't be surprised, overlooking the fact that most of the world was against this war and that these horrors wouldn't have happened if the war was never started.