11-04-2003 04:35									#1
	Women and Augusta National Golf Club Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You know I think golf is, as Mark Twain opined, "A good walk spoiled": that is except when it is my mates and I playing our game of "can-a-hole" (yes we can finish a round).

However, seeing as it's a topic of mild controversy, and thus ripe for the musings of Apolytoners, what's your opinion on the Augusta club admitting female members?

My own opinion is that such high profile clubs can't really remain men only any more than they can remain "whites only".

	11-04-2003 04:40									#2
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Private club == thier rules.

	11-04-2003 04:43									#3
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Where's the "I really don't give a ****" option? Sums up my feelings on the issue pretty well...

	11-04-2003 04:43									#4
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My answer: No...
Any private club should be able to make up its own rules. But likewise, they deserve all the bad press they get. BTW, the KKK issued a statement saying it supported Augusta's decision.

But also, a private club shouldn't be allowed to hold a public event. But that's the PGA's business.

Golf is a piece of crap sport. It's a waste of land, money, and resources. Golf may be a sport, but golfers aren't athletes. It's a stupid sport for mostly stupid, rich, white men.
[/end golf rant]

Also, this Martha Burke lady is a stupid man-hating, attention wh0re. She should focus her attention on REAL issues involving sexual discrimination.

	11-04-2003 04:44									#5
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Golf still sucks.

	11-04-2003 04:45									#6
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Private club = their rules

	11-04-2003 04:49									#7
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Ahhh! The image of Ataturk burns my eyes! Remove the visage of that secular infidel!

	11-04-2003 05:09									#8
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Yes, I agree with the most of us here. They make their own rules, if they don't want to play with girls, then fine.

I don't get in clubs that are for women only, if I wanted to join really bad, I'd put up my own club, or find one that is for men too. But I'm not going to cry about their rules and policy.

	11-04-2003 05:09									#9
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Sava: PGA == private organization, not "public event."

I want to join the "people against dumb protests" protest group. Sadly, I'm a few hundred miles away.

	11-04-2003 05:16									#10
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I think it's unfair that Mensa has it's own rules, it's racist against dumber people like me.. I know, bad comparison, but I couldn't resist. Why would one want to join a club where he/she is clearly not wanted? If they want women to join, they would change to rules, so clearly they don't want women to join. Why does someone always have to be that GI Jane, it's not like women can't play golf?
Or any other group, if the club decided so. I wouldn't want to join club where I feel like I'm not wanted.. what would be the point..

	11-04-2003 05:17									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Private club == thier rules.

Really? So if it was "no blacks; no Irish; and no Jews" you wouldn't object at all?

	11-04-2003 05:19									#12
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Sava: PGA == private organization, not "public event."

So what if it is a private organisation. Companies are private organisations and they can't have racist hiring policies - it's against the law in most countries. Besides - it is a private organisation which holds a very public event.

	11-04-2003 05:21									#13
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I didn't have any problem with the Boy Scouts, Agathon. Why would I have any problem with Augusta National?

	11-04-2003 05:21									#14
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My only question is why women would want to be a part of this club.

ACK!

	11-04-2003 05:29									#15
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quote: Ahhh! The image of Ataturk burns my eyes! Remove the visage of that secular infidel!

You know you love him.

	11-04-2003 05:32									#16
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quote: You know you love him.

It's true. How can anyone hate a man that pisses off the stupid Greeks?

	11-04-2003 05:32									#17
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I have to agree with the majority, I don't think it's any more unethical than not allowing men into a female locker-room.

	11-04-2003 05:33									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I didn't have any problem with the Boy Scouts, Agathon. Why would I have any problem with Augusta National?

We had girls in Scouts.

	11-04-2003 05:35									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon We had girls in Scouts.

We do to. They call it the Girl Scouts here. That's not what I was refering to anyway.

	11-04-2003 05:38									#20
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I have to agree with the majority, I don't think it's any more unethical than not allowing men into a female locker-room.

Bizarre. The cases are hardly equivalent.

Men aren't allowed into a female locker room for a good reason - they would spend their time ogling the women. If there were to one locker room for both sexes there would have to be a change in the way that people behave. Surely you aren't suggesting that allowing female members at a golf club is the same as that? There is a good reason for allowing different treatment in one case, but none in the other.

Besides that particular golf club is basically a large corporation - and the rules are different for corporations.

And in any case, no one has answered the question of why it's OK for them to ban women but not blacks or Jews.

	11-04-2003 05:39									#21
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I think an approriate analogy would be not allowing men onto a women's gymnastics team. This is a rather silly protest, IMHO.

	11-04-2003 05:40									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We do to. They call it the Girl Scouts here. That's not what I was refering to anyway.

Back home we had them in the same troops - because there doesn't seem to be any reason to separate them. The old reason was that they'd get taught to do "girly" things like cooking and cleaning. No one apart from a few whackos believes in that anymore.

	11-04-2003 05:42									#23
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I think an approriate analogy would be not allowing men onto a women's gymnastics team. This is a rather silly protest, IMHO.

Not really. There is a reason that men aren't allowed on to women's gymnastic teams and that is that the point of gym teams is to participate in competitions and men would beat the women. I have no problem with mixed teams anyway - if the rules can be altered so as to preserve the contest.

What is the reason that women aren't allowed to join the golf club? Sounds just like "whites only" to me.

	11-04-2003 05:45									#24
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I wouldnt have a problem with an organization which banned blacks or jews. I would be totally against it, but it is their choice.

	11-04-2003 05:48									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Golf is a piece of crap sport. It's a waste of land, money, and resources. Golf may be a sport, but golfers aren't athletes. It's a stupid sport for mostly stupid, rich, white men.

Only in the US and Europe. Anyone can play in New Zealand. It used to cost me about 10 US dollars for 18 holes and about 30 US dollars to play on the international standard course down the road. I didn't even have to join the club and if I was unlucky I might have to wait five minutes to tee off. Throw in beer money and it's a fun afternoon. I used to play in jeans and a Clash T-Shirt with borrowed clubs. No-one gave a hoot.

The class thing about golf is muted in NZ. One year the NZ ladies championship was won by a Maori lady from the back of beyond who had never played on a real course before (she had her husband make her a few holes on their farm) and who only owned five clubs. It was one of those great miracles.

	11-04-2003 05:50									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Golf is a piece of crap sport. It's a waste of land, money, and resources. Golf may be a sport, but golfers aren't athletes. It's a stupid sport for mostly stupid, rich, white men.

Hey, I like to golf and I'm not rich.



ACK!

	11-04-2003 05:50									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia I wouldnt have a problem with an organization which banned blacks or jews. I would be totally against it, but it is their choice.

So you think that corporations should be allowed to enact racist hiring policies if they want to? I'm amazed - this is just standing buy and doing nothing to prevent people being discriminated against by racists. Racists are foul and disgusting people who should be hounded out of society.

	11-04-2003 05:53									#28
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umm golf is pretty cheap in the US just play on a public course. I know where I live its 10$ to play on it.

and evne martha burke admits that if it wasnt augusta which she sees as some kind of enforced glass ceiling, as she always talks about WHO the members at augusta are then she wouldn't bother or care.

she sees this as an economics issue akin to affirmative action. its not that in the abstract she thinks its right, but she is trying to use it to atone for other sins she sees.

	11-04-2003 05:56									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon So you think that corporations should be allowed to enact racist hiring policies if they want to?

Corporations != private club

	11-04-2003 05:58									#30
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quote: So you think that corporations should be allowed to enact racist hiring policies if they want to? I'm amazed - this is just standing buy and doing nothing to prevent people being discriminated against by racists. Racists are foul and disgusting people who should be hounded out of society.

I agree, racists are foul and disgusting, but just like everyone else, they are protected by the freedom of speech. And yes, corporations should be allowed to discriminate however they want to: whether it be age, sex, ethnicity, gender, class, etc. Same with universities. If they want to give more points to african americans, there is nothing wrong with that.