12-04-2003 01:24									#91
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Agathon, you are wrong.

	12-04-2003 01:27									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The are many different types of "corporations". Because of legal reasons, most private clubs are corporations. Augusta National is a Not For Profit Corporation. While they do indeed take in tons of revenue, it is all allocated to the needs of the Club, and not to share holders as it would be for the type of corporation that you seem to keep alluding to.

I wasn't alluding to that at all. Not for profit corporations are no less guilty if they practice discrimination than IBM is.

Again I'd ask you this question. Do you think that racists have a greater right to engage in racist practices than the victims have the right not to be subject to them?

That's the point here - all the rest is window dressing.

	12-04-2003 01:35									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That has already been answered. This is a golf club. It's for playing golf. Golf - a game that has a long history of bigotry. Soccer clubs don't discriminate in this way.

Ahhh... so you are really saying that golf clubs should be treated differently than other clubs private because of past bigotry. Not very logical...

quote: Augusta is not the same as other clubs. Most clubs don't sell a branded product for mass consumption.

You are incorrect... most private famous course do sell branded products for mass consumption. I own a bunch of stuff from different courses... most golfers do.

quote: Sidestep the argument again why don't you? I like this "private" stuff - it is virtually meaningless due to the equivocation implicit in "private". i.e. private meaning not owned by the state and private meaning pertaining to one's personal social life.

But it is private... a bunch of people getting together in private to do what they enjoy doing. You seem to be the one not understanding this simple fact.

quote: There's a difference between me and my friends getting together and creating a club where the point is "Ag and his friends have fun" and a local golf club where people get together to play golf.

Actually, there is no difference. Just a bunch of friends getting togther.

quote: Most golf clubs do not admit people on the basis of friendship - they admit them on the basis that they can pay the fees and they aren't criminals or other ne'er do wells.

Again you are wrong. Most Private Club have "Membership Committees". To even have a chance of joining most clubs, you need multiple people to sponsor you for membership... In other words, you have to have friends at the club who think you will be a good addition. And in most cases, most clubs have trial periods... and if the members don't like you, you aren't given permanent membership.

quote: Sporting clubs are private in the first sense but not really private in the second sense. Not letting in women or blacks isn't about who you hang out with - its about bigotry.

But they are private in the second sense as well, just like any other private club. It's ALL about who you want to hang out with.

	12-04-2003 01:40									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I wasn't alluding to that at all. Not for profit corporations are no less guilty if they practice discrimination than IBM is.

US laws force Private Clubs to incorporate for liabilty and many other reasons. They are NOT companies. They are private clubs and subject to different laws.

They are NOT GUILTY of ANYTHING. They are simply deciding who can be members and who can't be.
If a bunch of guys don't want to hang with women, why should they. It is NO different then Jewish Country Clubs, or any other kind of Private organization that limits its membership for whatever reason.

	12-04-2003 01:43									#95
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If you want to argue ALL private clubs don't have the right to limit their membership, that's one thing.

But you aren't doing that. You are saying that Augusta/Private Golf Clubs shouldn't be allowed the same rights other Private Clubs have. Talk about discrimination...

	12-04-2003 01:45									#96
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Right to associate with whomever you choose is a natural right. Even the birds do it...

	12-04-2003 01:45									#97
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Ming, don't embarass Agathon any more please.

He's undoubtedly been duped by that wh0re Martha Burke into thinking this is an issue about sex discrimination. Agathon is the victim here Ming.

	12-04-2003 02:00									#98
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Just north of Chicago is one of oldest male only Private Golf Clubs.

Women are only allowed on the front porch to wait for their husbands or friends. They even built a outhouse for women to use while they wait (it was an expansive and expensive outhouse)

When you walk in the front door, you walk right into the locker room, where men are sitting around in all forms of dress or undress, playing cards, smoking cigars, swearing, and just being men... scratching their asses and belching...

On the golf course... there is NO dress code restrition, and men some times play in just their jock straps.

They have all types of minorities as members, just no women. They just want to act like men, and not be limited because of the presence of women.

This is NOT discrimination in any way... They have the right to have a Private Club where they can be themselves.

	12-04-2003 02:13									#99
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quote: You know, you will make a lousy lawyer. Read the rest of the thread - this point has already been addressed.

Ah, I was wondering when the ad hominem attacks would begin. Sure sign you've lost the debate.

Although it is amusing to see someone with no legal training whatsoever say that someone will be a bad lawyer.

Perhaps restating the question indicates it hasn't been answered yet (you may have addressed it, but I want an answer)?

quote: Ming, don't embarass Agathon any more please.

He need it... cut him down a peg.

quote: When you walk in the front door, you walk right into the locker room, where men are sitting around in all forms of dress or undress, playing cards, smoking cigars, swearing, and just being men... scratching their asses and belching...

But Ming, if women were admitted they could do the same thing . Why does Agathon think that minorities should have seperate groups because there are 'good reasons' but ignores the reason men want their own club.

quote: Again I'd ask you this question. Do you think that racists have a greater right to engage in racist practices than the victims have the right not to be subject to them?

But this has already been addressed . Maybe you should be make some snide comment about your debating skills?

	12-04-2003 02:21									#100
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Those racist Jews won't let me become a Rabbi for the sole reason that I'm not Jewish. Talk about discrimination!

	12-04-2003 03:20									#101
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Some people like to ignore logic and hide behind chants of "discrimination"... I guess they consider it easier than trying to argue the facts

	12-04-2003 04:34									#102
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Agathon -

quote: I expected better arguments from Apolyton.

You're from Apolyton.

quote: The "their club, their rules" argument does not hold water.

You sure convinced me with that rebuttal.

quote: It's easy to think of many things that private individuals or clubs are not allowed to do. A better argument than this has to be found.

So government can observe and regulate everything you do in your bedroom because you aren't allowed to murder people there? Gee, do laws against molesting children in the privacy of your home now mean you live on public property?

quote: Similarly, with the "women are treated differently in X" argument. This is also not a sufficient response. One can justify treating the sexes differently when there is a good reason to do so, and not when there isn't.

Since when do we need your permission to treat people as WE see fit? Anyone who thinks communism isn't about dictatorships need only read your BS.

quote: For example, women aren't entitled to publicy funded prostate exams because they don't have prostates; and we have separate toilets for men and women because anyone whose ever used a "gents" knows that men are pigs.

Then women should start their own country club and you can complain about them.

quote: I don't believe that anyone here thinks that either racism or sexism is not unjust.

Less unjust than threatening people with violence for not liking the right people.

quote: What this issue boils down to is the conflict between two freedoms. (1) The freedom of racists to construct racist institutions. and (2) The freedom of minorities not to be discriminated against.

We have a freedom against discrimination? Then the next time you buy a music CD, you better buy CD's from all musicians because if you don't you're discriminating.

quote: Violation of the second is clearly the more harmful so the first should be curbed.

Freedoms only conflict in the minds of people who don't understand the meaning of freedom.

quote: This needn't be by making it illegal, rather the tax system could be brought to bear. Would anyone care to suggest that violating (1) is more harmful? I think not.

Not that I expect a response, but yes. Freedom of association is more important than your hypocritical "freedom" from discrimination.

quote: All the arguments about liberty and so one have to face this uncomfortable fact.

The only uncomfortable facts displayed in this thread is your ignorance of what freedom means and the hypocrisy of arguing that discrimination is wrong only when you say so.

quote: In other words racist institutions should not be tolerated.

"Tolerated" or physically eliminated by your thought police?

quote: There are of course pragmatic limitations to what can be done (as there are with any policy), but giving racist clubs and corporations a hard time seems feasible.

This isn't about giving someone a hard time, you want government to step in to legislate your "morality" with money stolen from the rest of us - what an oxy-moron.

quote: And yes - I think the KKK should be outlawed - it is basically a criminal gang set up with the express purpose of violating the civil rights of black people.

If a KKK member violates the civil rights of another human being, then they should be punished. If they don't and only belong to the KKK for other reasons, then they shouldn't be punished.

quote: Yeah right. We are talking about a golf club here.

So your wedding guest list should be exempt from discrimination laws but not a private golf club? How convenient...

quote: If the club was instituted by friends only for friends then you would have a case.

Why? Friends can discriminate but not others?

quote: But this is a golf club, for people who play golf. Most of the members are golfers or businessmen who use the club as a background for business (the woman in question is complaining about this as much as anything else).

Still having trouble with facts I see, the club is not for people who play golf, it's for people who can pay and are invited to join.

quote: Since this is one of the world's best golf clubs it isn't as if women can easily join an equivalent club.

There are all sorts of people who can't join, your arguments are discriminatory since you exclude them.

	12-04-2003 05:47									#103
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I would like to point out until this whole flap over whether women being admitted into augusta national came into being, the tournament held at augusta national had a whole shitload of corporate support.

what did augusta national do with that money? after paying the expenses of the tournament, it donated pretty much every bit of money it got from it to charities.

this flap has annihialated corporate support-- and with it, all the donations to the charities.

======

i'm in the camp that it's a private club, and miz martha here is just an attention hound on a stupid personal crusade.

why? you ever remember, when you were a little kid, how some of the boys would build a fort and then write "no girlz alloud" ?

it's the same thing. these men are just building their own little fort-- let them. they weren't harming anyone before.

can you honestly say that augusta national not allowing women into the club was causing any harm to anybody? can you prove it? therein lies the crucial difference that separates that golf club from say, "separate-but-equal" schooling.

incidentally, miz martha wiped out any respect or credence i may have ever had for her when she made a statement along the lines of this:
"it is disgusting that a woman can fight for freedom in iraq but still not be allowed to play golf when she comes back home."

	12-04-2003 08:32									#104
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It's a private club. They can set their own rules - and that includes barring women, blacks, Jews, the left handed, people with less than $5,000,000 net worth, 22-handicappers, and those who spit uncontrollably when outdoors, if they want.

The analogy to a business - saying that this is the same as a business being allowed to discriminate in its hiring practices - is a weak one. There are employment laws which govern employment, because society presumably has an interest in making sure that people are able to work (and thus, pay taxes). But a societal interest in letting people play golf - not just at any golf club, but this particular one? Get real.

A private club is like a private party I'm having next week. I can invite who I want. If I only invite certain people, and others feel excluded, that's too bad for them. And if I don't want to invite women, or black people, or communists, I can do so. Perfectly within my rights. Hootie and friends are simply doing the same thing, on a larger scale.

A public golf course - run with government money - is another story, of course.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon No. It's ok to frustrate the ambitions of racists.

The sad thing is, people are wasting their time focusing on Augusta when there is so much real racism and sexism going on that actually merits attention. I'm talking about discrimination that actually affects real people and causes real harm - not the hypothetical, vague harm 'suffered' by a hypothetical wealthy woman (who already has life pretty much as she wants it, regardless of whether she can have a membership at Augusta).

	14-04-2003 04:01									#105
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Well... the protesters can do what they want now...

Mike Weir just beat Len Matiace on the first hole of the sudden death play off.

After both finishing at 7 under par, Matiace hit his second shot behind the green on the first playoff hole... he never recovered.

Congratulations to Mike Weir... The first Canadian to EVER win one of the Majors. OH CANADA!

And to you protesters... screw off You couldn't disrupt this GREAT tournament.

	14-04-2003 04:41									#106
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As I felt about the BSA issue, a private club can set whatever membership standards they want. However, the government should be able to deny such organizations use of public space for club purposes or any other benefits should it find the policies of the club objectionable.

Comparing this to a private corporation's hiring practice isn't equitable, as we're not talking about the club refusing to hire women, just setting a membership standard for dues-paying people. Big difference.

Of course, this still begs the question: Is it okay for a private entity which offers a service to discriminate in to whom it offers said service? Could a restaurant put up a sign saying "No blacks allowed" and be able to get away with it? That's thornier, as I don't think that is right nor should it be tolerated.

But that's exactly what places like Lucille Roberts (all-female gym) do by only admitting women. I fail to see a difference between such gyms and this golf club. For whatever reason, some women feel uncomfortable exercising around men, so they'd rather have a private, women-only gym. How is that any different from a bunch of men who, for whatever reason, feel uncomfortable playing golf around women and choose to have a men-only club?

	14-04-2003 04:44									#107
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crap i hoping Tiger would beat Nickleas' and Faldo's record.

	14-04-2003 11:38									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Some people like to ignore logic and hide behind chants of "discrimination"... I guess they consider it easier than trying to argue the facts

You can talk. You've totally failed to respond to the argument and repeated your assertion that it is a private club so they can do what they want. I'd be quite happy to be proved wrong, but no sure fire refutation has been forthcoming.

I don't believe my rgument applies universally to any club, so I can't see how it's supposed to be a master refutation. And in response to your comments about the "facts" this is a moral issue. When I last looked moral utterances didn't directly report empirical facts (unless one is a moral realist, which hardly anyone is).

I also don't have to universalize my comments to all clubs - I might be using consequentialist reasoning, picking on the more high profile offenders for the future goal of lowering wrongful discrimination (although I don't have to to make the argument go through.

And similarly I'm not committed to preventing all male clubs or anything like that, just like I'm not committed to banning Jewish clubs or Catholic clubs or anything like that (if you read what I say carefully you will see why). But I can't see any specifically male need being catered to by AGN (that's what makes it different from your club where people play in jocks). More likely it is a hangover from the good old racist and sexist days of yore - that's the simplest explanation.

After all, at one famous club the sign "No Dogs or Women allowed on the course" was posted up around the course until a few years back.

And as for the government - I happen to think it should make life as difficult as possible for racists.

Ah it's three in the morning.

	14-04-2003 11:41									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Of course, this still begs the question: Is it okay for a private entity which offers a service to discriminate in to whom it offers said service? Could a restaurant put up a sign saying "No blacks allowed" and be able to get away with it? That's thornier, as I don't think that is right nor should it be tolerated. But that's exactly what places like Lucille Roberts (all-female gym) do by only admitting women. I fail to see a difference between such gyms and this golf club. For whatever reason, some women feel uncomfortable exercising around men, so they'd rather have a private, women-only gym. How is that any different from a bunch of men who, for whatever reason, feel uncomfortable playing golf around women and choose to have a men-only club?

How many times do I have to say this. There are women only gyms because a large proportion of men behave like pigs at the gym. Talk to women who go to gyms only to be leered at, harassed and ogled by blokes and you'll see why. That's a good reason.

Your "for whatever reason feel uncomfortable playing golf around women" is the problem. Either the reason is a sexist one or they are just being pathetic.

	14-04-2003 13:30									#110
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Agathon -

quote: You've totally failed to respond to the argument and repeated your assertion that it is a private club so they can do what they want.

You had an argument? All you've done is express disgust with what they're doing and called upon other people to stop it, that isn't an argument.

quote: I'd be quite happy to be proved wrong, but no sure fire refutation has been forthcoming.

How does one offer a refutation involving the concept of private property to a communist? If you said the sun was the color purple and refused to accept that yellow is a color, our refutation of your claim wouldn't penetrate your skull either.

quote: I don't believe my rgument applies universally to any club, so I can't see how it's supposed to be a master refutation.

Then your argument is inconsistent.

quote: And in response to your comments about the "facts" this is a moral issue.

Sure is, but your "solution" to what you consider immoral is the use (or threat) of violence to get one group of people to associate with another group of people (with money forcibly taken from others). While the policy may be immoral, you far surpass it with your reaction.

quote: When I last looked moral utterances didn't directly report empirical facts (unless one is a moral realist, which hardly anyone is).

Sounds like you consider your opinions more important than facts.

quote: I can't see any specifically male need being catered to by AGN (that's what makes it different from your club where people play in jocks).

It's not up to you to decide what value needs to be placed on activities engaged in by others, that's up to them.

quote: More likely it is a hangover from the good old racist and sexist days of yore - that's the simplest explanation.

How is that different from all Jewish or all Catholic clubs? It's still discrimination...and you discriminate too...

quote: After all, at one famous club the sign "No Dogs or Women allowed on the course" was posted up around the course until a few years back.

Gee, I take it you've never played golf. There is a reason to ban dogs, and if you ever had to follow a 4-some of women, you'd understand why many men don't want them there too...

quote: And as for the government - I happen to think it should make life as difficult as possible for racists.

And yet I imagine you'd oppose government making life difficult for communists. Don't persecute the commies, persecute the people communists don't like. Why are you oblivious to the hypocrisy in your argument?

quote: How many times do I have to say this. There are women only gyms because a large proportion of men behave like pigs at the gym. Talk to women who go to gyms only to be leered at, harassed and ogled by blokes and you'll see why. That's a good reason. Your "for whatever reason feel uncomfortable playing golf around women" is the problem. Either the reason is a sexist one or they are just being pathetic.

So it's sexist or pathetic for men to not want women around the course because they're slow as hell, but perfectly fine for women to exclude men when their presence creates a less enjoyable experience? Double standard...

	14-04-2003 21:07									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker How does one offer a refutation involving the concept of private property to a communist?

Best line I've read today.

	14-04-2003 22:16									#112
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Agathon How many times do I have to say this. There are women only gyms because a large proportion of men behave like pigs at the gym. Talk to women who go to gyms only to be leered at, harassed and ogled by blokes and you'll see why. That's a good reason.

You can say it as much as you want, it's still a stupid argument. So some women take a stereotypical view of men (I've spent many years going to various co-ed gyms, and have never witnessed this behavior. And how do you know this is why the clubs are women-only? A coworker of mine goes to Lucille Roberts, and only does so because it's cheaper compared to other gyms in the area), and cite that stereotype of male behavior as making them uncomfortable, ergo all-female gyms are ok.

Well, fine. So some male golfers take a stereotypical view of women that they are a drag on male bonding, so want to go to an all-male golf course. I see no real difference in these rationales.

quote: Your "for whatever reason feel uncomfortable playing golf around women" is the problem. Either the reason is a sexist one or they are just being pathetic.

Being sexist isn't a crime, and since legally we condone gender separation all the time (sports teams, restrooms, dormitories, etc.), there is a precendent for it. You may feel the golf club's reason isn't good enough, but who the hell are you to decide that?

If it's pathetic, so be it. Let people shun the club if they disapprove. Let people complain to their board about the policy. But I don't see why the government should be stepping in to interfere with a private club's membership rules when there are rather more important issues for it to deal with, including real examples of institutional sex discrimination.

Freedom of Association has been consistently upheld as a right by SCOTUS, and it is considered sacrosanct for private clubs and organizations (like the BSA). Telling the golf club whom they have to admit as members is not many steps removed from the government telling me who I have to hang out with on weekends.

And please, you can avoid responding with your stock "I'm so disappointed in these arguments" or "You are failing to argue" lines, as they're very obvious, cheap debating tricks.

	15-04-2003 00:27									#113
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quote: There are women only gyms because a large proportion of men behave like pigs at the gym. Talk to women who go to gyms only to be leered at, harassed and ogled by blokes and you'll see why. That's a good reason.

So women can engage in sexist behavior, but men cannot. No, that isn't a 'good' reason. Augusta's justificiations for keeping women out are just as valid as outdated and archaic stereotypes as 'all men are pigs'.

quote: Well, fine. So some male golfers take a stereotypical view of women that they are a drag on male bonding, so want to go to an all-male golf course. I see no real difference in these rationales.

Such an easy counterargument to Agathon

	15-04-2003 00:37									#114
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I see Agathon hasn't added any real arguments at all.

He is still stating that Augusta/Golf Clubs should be held to different standards than any other private club. And the only reason he gives it that they are successful or that they just cater to men...

Discrimination sucks... but OK if he discriminates against a specific private club.

Still waiting for a real argument or a real justification of this opinon.

People have the right to associate with who they want. I don't want the government telling me who my friends should be.

And since eveybody else has pointed out how silly his argument is that women should be able to avoid men because they are pigs... but when men try to avoid women for whatever reasons... it's wrong... I don't really need to add anything else

	15-04-2003 01:40									#115
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Men are pigs and Women are just wonderful to be around a couple of days every month. I see no difference.

I have no problems with PRIVATE CLUBS, but since Augusta does open it's doors to the most prestigious golf tournament every year (which sells tickets to get into) whether it's truely private is kind of a gray area in my opinion. So while I still believe that they should be able to control the membership they should be a bit more sensitive to the PC aspect. Heck, they let a token black in when they took abuse in the past. They already let women play the course, why not let in a token women or at least say they would consider it. That would be a small price to pay for the prestige that hosting the Masters entails.

And I think to generalize and say all women golfers suck and play slow is also wrong. The slowest groups I've ever played behind were all MEN golfers that were quite good players.

Just like men, some are fast and some are slow, some are good and some are bad. (but mostly bad )

RAH

	15-04-2003 01:45									#116
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golf is pretty boring i think... so i'll just say this.

i would like to see a bunch of low par courses (nothing more the 3) and let men and women play against eachother. i bet many women could beat the men.

	15-04-2003 01:48									#117
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quote: They already let women play the course, why not let in a token women or at least say they would consider it.

They actually had said they were considering it before Martha Burk came to town. Now they don't want to seem like they caved to her.

	15-04-2003 01:51									#118
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THE not caving in to burk part is quite understood.
And in principle I agree with that.

It was funny reading that the protesters were outnumbered by the press.

	15-04-2003 02:28									#119
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quote: Originally posted by My Wife Hates CIV golf is pretty boring i think... so i'll just say this. i would like to see a bunch of low par courses (nothing more the 3) and let men and women play against eachother. i bet many women could beat the men.

Unless you play avidly (like me) I can see how it would be boring.

I agree that if you take out the strength factor it would even the playing field some...but even on par three men would be able to use 9 and 8 irons while women would have to use between 6 and 4 irons which are far less accurate. So while some women would be able to beat some men I think the men would still largely out shoot the women.

	15-04-2003 02:33									#120
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Agathon... you are wrong. Give it up.