11-04-2003 23:31									#61
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quote: One can justify treating the sexes differently when there is a good reason to do so

None of the examples I gave seem like any better of a reason than this private club has. Yet, those groups are not protesting those. So perhaps we can at least agree those groups protesting are hypocrites.

quote: The freedom of minorities not to be discriminated against.

Surely you're not saying its ok to discriminate against a majority, but not a minority.

	11-04-2003 23:42									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I expected better arguments from Apolyton.

Hmmm... the facts aren't good arguments?

You seem to have a problem with the laws that allow Private Clubs to pick and choose who can join.
Fine... That's your opinion.

But it's not the law. There is a reason why they are called "Private" Clubs. The government has NO RIGHT to force them to except people they don't want in their club.

	11-04-2003 23:48									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Hmmm... the facts aren't good arguments? You seem to have a problem with the laws that allow Private Clubs to pick and choose who can join. Fine... That's your opinion. But it's not the law. There is a reason why they are called "Private" Clubs. The government has NO RIGHT to force them to except people they don't want in their club.

This argument is about whether it's right or not.

	11-04-2003 23:50									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew None of the examples I gave seem like any better of a reason than this private club has. Yet, those groups are not protesting those. So perhaps we can at least agree those groups protesting are hypocrites.

Hardly, the golf club doesn't seem to have a reason.

quote: Surely you're not saying its ok to discriminate against a majority, but not a minority.

No. It's ok to frustrate the ambitions of racists.

	11-04-2003 23:53									#65
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quote: The "their club, their rules" argument does not hold water.

Why not? It is legal and seeing all the single sex organizations that people hold up, perfectly moral.

quote: Would anyone care to suggest that violating (1) is more harmful? I think not.

(1) isn't simply the freedom of racists to construct racist institutions, it is freedom of association, a VERY important part of freedom of speech. I consider freedom of association and speech as MUCH more important than freedom not to be discriminated against.

quote: In other words racist institutions should not be tolerated. There are of course pragmatic limitations to what can be done (as there are with any policy), but giving racist clubs and corporations a hard time seems feasible. And yes - I think the KKK should be outlawed - it is basically a criminal gang set up with the express purpose of violating the civil rights of black people.

So what you are saying is that you don't give a damn about free speech? Or the only speech that can exist is one that approve?

	11-04-2003 23:54									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Bizarre. The cases are hardly equivalent. Men aren't allowed into a female locker room for a good reason - they would spend their time ogling the women. If there were to one locker room for both sexes there would have to be a change in the way that people behave. Surely you aren't suggesting that allowing female members at a golf club is the same as that? There is a good reason for allowing different treatment in one case, but none in the other.

Why wouldn't it be the same...Women don't want men inside a locker room because they want privacy from the opposite sex right? Try to think outside the box on this one...Men need a place to be away from wives or girlfriends. Where can they go nowadays? Don't they have a similiar right to privacy?

There are plenty of all women organizations that exclude men so why aren't these being harrassed?

I'm saddened that these feminist have gained so much power in society that they can Bully their ideals on other people.

quote: Besides that particular golf club is basically a large corporation - and the rules are different for corporations.

It is not a corporation it is a private club and it behaves just as a private club should.

quote: And in any case, no one has answered the question of why it's OK for them to ban women but not blacks or Jews.

I don't see the problem for a private group to discriminate on any basis for its membership. Don't get me wrong I'm not racist I don't feel that minorities are inferior but I do believe that people still have a right do organize as they wish. This includes the KKK, ACLU, or whoever as long as they do not participate in any illegal activities. America is based on the idea of freedom to organize even if we do not agree with it. That is something that self righteous people tend to forget about. They feel that if people do not think as they think or hold the morals that they hold that it is wrong.

Look the basic fact is that Augusta is a place where guys can get together shoot a round of golf, drink some beer, and spend time away from home. They don't hurt anybody and they are not part of an anti-women campaign...so lets just leave them alone.

	11-04-2003 23:55									#67
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quote: Hardly, the golf club doesn't seem to have a reason.

Their reason is that they want a place where only men can go and not have to deal with their wives or other women, etc. It's a gentlemen's club. Just like women have certain places they go, so as not to be bothered by the men in their lives (or men at all).

I see that as a valid reason.

	11-04-2003 23:57									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon This argument is about whether it's right or not.

A good question... However, not everybody agrees with your opinion. As a matter of fact, many would think that you opinion is the wrong one, and just isn't right.

Again... the key term here is PRIVATE. Nothing is stopping women from playing Golf... nothing is stopping them from joining other Private Clubs. And nothing should stop Private Clubs from deciding who can join them. I don't look forward to the day that the Government can invade upon the rights of private clubs and dictate who their membership will be. Talk about an invasion of privacy by the government...

	12-04-2003 00:03									#69
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quote: Hardly, the golf club doesn't seem to have a reason.

If those other examples I gave have a valid reason, then state it. Otherwise, they are hypocrites.

quote: There are plenty of all women organizations that exclude men so why aren't these being harrassed?

Exactly.

	12-04-2003 00:05									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ming A good question... However, not everybody agrees with your opinion. As a matter of fact, many would think that you opinion is the wrong one, and just isn't right.

Well, they ought to come up with better arguments.

quote: Again... the key term here is PRIVATE. Nothing is stopping women from playing Golf... nothing is stopping them from joining other Private Clubs. And nothing should stop Private Clubs from deciding who can join them. I don't look forward to the day that the Government can invade upon the rights of private clubs and dictate who their membership will be. Talk about an invasion of privacy by the government...

While "private" entails some rights it doesn't entail that a club or a corporation can just do what it likes. I'm not saying that the government should decide who their members can be, only that considerations of race or sex can't come into it unless there is a morally justifiable reason why.

If you want to argue that it's an invasion of privacy, fine. That boils down to the decision I wrote about before. Do the rights of racists to construct racist institutions matter more than the rights of people to be discriminated against? Privacy and liberty rights are too often a fig leaf for institutions that cause discrimination.

	12-04-2003 00:08									#71
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quote: I'm not saying that the government should decide who their members can be, only that considerations of race or sex can't come into it unless there is a morally justifiable reason why.

Um... you just made the government decide who their members should be.

--

Does this also mean that you want Black Students Unions and Womens Rape Discussion Groups to be integrated? Or only those that you find to be repugnant?

	12-04-2003 00:12									#72
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No... being a private club does NOT give them the right to what ever it likes. But it does give them THE RIGHT to decide their own membership. Maybe if ALL Private Golf Clubs didn't allow women, or blacks, or any other specific group, I would agree with you. But that's not the case. There are many Private Clubs that have been established for like people to enjoy each others company. There are Jewish Clubs, Catholic Clubs, Mens Clubs, Womens Clubs, Veterans Clubs... many different types of Golf Clubs. People have the right to associate in Private with whomever they want. And the Government has NO business telling them they can't.

If women want to play golf... they can. If they want to join a Club... they can. If they want to join Augusta, they can't. And frankly neither can a lot of other people.

	12-04-2003 00:20									#73
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Well what a lot of fuss over a membership in some club... Obelix would say - Those women are crazy

	12-04-2003 00:22									#74
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You would think that the protesters would be more concerned about real injustices in the world.

This is nothing more than "somebody" screaming for media attention.

	12-04-2003 00:30									#75
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I think the club would've eventually included women among its ranks. The problem was it didn't like getting pushed around and coerced by wackos like Burk.

The Augusta Chairman, Hootie Johnson, has actually done a lot for women and minorities in his own business. It's just that him or the board members didn't want to change on someone else's terms, and has always said that changes will be implemented "on Augustas timetable only".

	12-04-2003 00:32									#76
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Using the logic of some... I guess the Government should have a say on who you invite to your own wedding...

	12-04-2003 00:37									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ming No... being a private club does NOT give them the right to what ever it likes. But it does give them THE RIGHT to decide their own membership. Maybe if ALL Private Golf Clubs didn't allow women, or blacks, or any other specific group, I would agree with you. But that's not the case. There are many Private Clubs that have been established for like people to enjoy each others company. There are Jewish Clubs, Catholic Clubs, Mens Clubs, Womens Clubs, Veterans Clubs... many different types of Golf Clubs. People have the right to associate in Private with whomever they want. And the Government has NO business telling them they can't. If women want to play golf... they can. If they want to join a Club... they can. If they want to join Augusta, they can't. And frankly neither can a lot of other people.

Well then, the argument is over whether or not they should have that right. I don't buy the argument that there are other golf clubs that people can join just as I don't buy the argument that there are other companies to work for. Each company or club that discriminates lowers the overall prospects for the people it discriminates against.

I have no reason to stop people from having Catholic clubs or Jewish clubs or whatever (I used the Catholic example in a previous post) as long as there's a good reason for doing so. Presumably a Jewish club is for Jews because that's the function of the club - there's an important cultural and religious difference between Jews and other people. The point of a golf club is supposed to be golf, although it is also for doing business. There is no specifically male need served by the Augusta Golf Club. There was no golfing or business need served by them not admitting blacks or hispanics for years - it was simple racism.

It doesn't matter that a lot of people can't join Augusta, it matters that some can't because they're women. And this fiction of Augusta being a "gents club" when it is in effect a corporation is getting tiresome.

As for the government - it has the business of promoting justice and preventing injustice. If this involves telling private clubs what they can and can't do, so be it. Again the rights of those who wish to discriminate come second to those who are discriminated against.

	12-04-2003 00:42									#78
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How is Augusta a corporation? Since that is a statement of fact, it is seems that the best place to start getting some sense of order to this debate.

	12-04-2003 00:43									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Using the logic of some... I guess the Government should have a say on who you invite to your own wedding...

Yeah right. We are talking about a golf club here. it so happens that there are a great variety of private institutions, not all of which share the same features. If the club was instituted by friends only for friends then you would have a case. But this is a golf club, for people who play golf. Most of the members are golfers or businessmen who use the club as a background for business (the woman in question is complaining about this as much as anything else). Since this is one of the world's best golf clubs it isn't as if women can easily join an equivalent club.

	12-04-2003 00:44									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Does this also mean that you want Black Students Unions and Womens Rape Discussion Groups to be integrated? Or only those that you find to be repugnant?

You know, you will make a lousy lawyer. Read the rest of the thread - this point has already been addressed.

	12-04-2003 00:46									#81
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How is Augusta a corporation? Since that is a statement of fact, it is seems that the best place to start getting some sense of order to this debate.

It's worth millions and puts on the most famous golf tournament of all. It produces a widely consumed branded product. It owns copyrights. It isn't your average golf club.

	12-04-2003 00:48									#82
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Perhaps it would be worth splitting the argument into 2 parts. One specifically about Augusta and the other about general discrimination and the state's role in suppressing it.

For the record I don't blame Hootie Johnson. He's a fine chap.

	12-04-2003 00:49									#83
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As far as your other argument on why Jewish Clubs are OK, but mens clubs aren't are just funny. Last time I checked, there are important differences between men and women... just as important as "culture" or religious factors that you seem to think are ok. Why shouldn't men be allowed to hang out with other guys in a private club if that's what they want to do.

And your tiresome comments that Augusta should be treated differently than other clubs because it is a corporation are just funny. All private clubs are corporations or companies. That's the way Private Clubs are structured.

And it is not Governments business to tell people who they have to associate with in private... talk about a real injustice.

	12-04-2003 00:52									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon 1) It's worth millions and puts on the most famous golf tournament of all. 2) It produces a widely consumed branded product. 3) It owns copyrights.

I fail to see how points one and three are relevent in any respect to your point. Could you expeand a bit on them? I also don't see how point 3 relates at all unless you meant it as a repeat of your first point.

	12-04-2003 00:56									#85
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I'm still trying to figure out why the fact that they host their own tournament makes any difference. It has nothing to do with their membership policies... The Masters is not a PGA event, and is not subject to their rules. As a private club, they are allowed to host tournaments. Many clubs do just that... The fact that theirs is successful doesn't change the fact that they are still just a PRIVATE golf club.

	12-04-2003 01:11									#86
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I fail to see how points one and three are relevent in any respect to your point. Could you expeand a bit on them? I also don't see how point 3 relates at all unless you meant it as a repeat of your first point.

Go to their website. Notice that it is copyrighted to "Augusta National Inc."

Inc. = incorporated.

Isn't that enough to prove its a corporation?

	12-04-2003 01:13									#87
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MOST PRIVATE CLUBS ARE CORPORATIONS...

your point?

	12-04-2003 01:16									#88
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I think that the women should be

however, it is alright for Augusta to do what they want (And that is also right)

Jon Miller

	12-04-2003 01:22									#89
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The are many different types of "corporations". Because of legal reasons, most private clubs are corporations. Augusta National is a Not For Profit Corporation. While they do indeed take in tons of revenue, it is all allocated to the needs of the Club, and not to share holders as it would be for the type of corporation that you seem to keep alluding to.

There is a big difference between GM, IBM, Microsoft vs Private Golf Clubs and other Private organizations.

	12-04-2003 01:24									#90
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Surely you can do better than this.

quote: Originally posted by Ming As far as your other argument on why Jewish Clubs are OK, but mens clubs aren't are just funny. Last time I checked, there are important differences between men and women... just as important as "culture" or religious factors that you seem to think are ok. Why shouldn't men be allowed to hang out with other guys in a private club if that's what they want to do.

That has already been answered. This is a golf club. It's for playing golf. Golf - a game that has a long history of bigotry. Soccer clubs don't discriminate in this way.

quote: And your tiresome comments that Augusta should be treated differently than other clubs because it is a corporation are just funny. All private clubs are corporations or companies. That's the way Private Clubs are structured.

Augusta is not the same as other clubs. Most clubs don't sell a branded product for mass consumption.

quote: And it is not Governments business to tell people who they have to associate with in private... talk about a real injustice.

Sidestep the argument again why don't you? I like this "private" stuff - it is virtually meaningless due to the equivocation implicit in "private". i.e. private meaning not owned by the state and private meaning pertaining to one's personal social life.

There's a difference between me and my friends getting together and creating a club where the point is "Ag and his friends have fun" and a local golf club where people get together to play golf. Most golf clubs do not admit people on the basis of friendship - they admit them on the basis that they can pay the fees and they aren't criminals or other ne'er do wells. Sporting clubs are private in the first sense but not really private in the second sense. Not letting in women or blacks isn't about who you hang out with - its about bigotry.