06-05-2003 14:15									#241
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by rush 2. Realistically, don't think I can win by Space. But I will try, .... Tough call. Still thinking. Any suggestion are welcome. Have a nice day.

Thanks for posting the account so far. I agree that the SS is a tough call. Staying on the pace going into the Modern Era is not too hard, but competing with strong Civs beyond this point seems impossible - unless the other civs oblige you by destroying themselves with war & communism.

That is the big question still unanswered by this intriguing AU course.

	06-05-2003 16:41									#242
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Thanks CortHaus,

You're right about the ZIP file, I couldn't get it to work either. I'll experiment more later. In the meantime, I uploaded the save right before the victory.

And, attached here is the long log.

- TT

Attachment: au302deity.rtf
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	06-05-2003 16:43									#243
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

And, here is the save when I was about to enter the Modern Age.

- TT

Attachment: au302 modern times.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	06-05-2003 18:37									#244
	Inflate your Upload Space

And, here are a couple of screenshots just for giggles:

	06-05-2003 21:40									#245
	Researching in the Modern Age under Deity Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I wanted to see how you managed in the modern era with AI's researching at deity rates. I only just squeezed a SS on lowly, humble, p*ss-easy Regent (first OCC though).

Cort Haus,

You're right about researching in the Modern Era. It’s way tough.

By that point, the techs are very costly (even with 300-400 beakers, you’re lucky to research a virgin tech in under 35 turns) and you need 10(!) of them to build all the SS parts. Even playing a Scientific Civ, that’s about 300 turns of research. That’s way too long; either someone (maybe you) get a Cultural Victory or one of your rivals gets tired of your pesky presence and offs you.

In my experience, you need company, lots of it. If you have just one rival in the Modern Age and the remaining rivals are way behind, you never get the benefit of reduced research cost and reduced trading costs. Plus, there are just fewer folks to trade with.

However, the push for a Spaceship actually begins way before the Modern Age. What I’ve found is that you sometimes have to pull some folks into the Modern Age kicking and screaming. In this game I had a decent tech lead after building Theory of Evolution, but gave it all away almost immediately. Here’s an excerpt from my “long log”:

=================
1385AD: Theory of Evolution – Atomic Theory and Electronics. Hoover Dam in 3. Traded Scientific Method to Celts for Corporation, Free Artistry, World Map, 38 gpt and 225 gold. Traded Atomic Theory to Celts for Replaceable Parts and 65 gpt. Radio in 23.

Time for a pat on the back; game looks good.
City Summary:
- 10368 gold in the bank
- 93 gpt.
- 92 shields
- 302 commerce
- Size 16
- 7872 culture

Tech-lead over Celts:
- Electronics

Tech-lead over Koreans:
- Electronics
- Atomic Theory
- Scientific Theory

Tech-lead over Romans
- Electronics
- Atomic Theory
- Scientific Theory
- Corporation
- Replaceable Parts

Note: Time to give it all away. There’s no way I can research everything by myself.

1390AD: Sold Electronics to Celts for 4 gpt and 19 gold. Gave rest of techs away.
=================

Once in the Modern Age, you have to decide which techs you will research, which you will buy and which you might have to steal. I only researched Space Flight, Satellites, and Nuclear Power. I got Rocketry for being Scientific and I stole Superconductor and The Laser. I traded for the remaining four (Fission, Computers, Ecology, and Synthetic Fibers). I never could have done that if the AI was still researching Motorized Transport.

One thing to be aware of is that the AI falls into two research traps. It almost always researches Recycling after researching at least some of the SS techs, but not all. I’ve seen the AI only need one tech to build its last SS part, but it researches Recycling instead. Knowing that this will happen is very useful.

The other research trap the AI falls into is that it places disproportional value on the optional Industrial techs. Knowing this will happen is also very useful. You can either use this knowledge to catch your breath or you can buy these techs and distribute them around and get the AI researching something you need.

A couple of other tips:
1) Don’t always sell the techs for the most gold and gold/turn deals you can get. Sometimes you want the AI to have money. Sometimes you don’t.

2) Do everything you can to have all your rivals Gracious. This ensures that no one can build United Nations and sneak in a Diplomatic Victory.

3) Check the Foreign Advisor every turn. Sometimes there is just a one or two turn window in which to buy a tech and trade it for another.

The best way to get used to an OCC game in the Modern Age is to play a bunch of them. Grab the save game I posted above and see what happens if you try different things. The AI gets to be fairly predictable after a while.

That’s it for now.

- TT

	07-05-2003 02:37									#246
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TT,

Thanks for the re-posts, which I'll be looking at, and for the excellent advice. I'm beginning to recognise the importance of point (1) - sometimes you want them to have money; and does it also help to try to keep the balance between rivals? In my au302 the English and Koreans took their continents and became super-powers. In another game I'm trying to bolster the lagging civs to check the more powerful.

(2) and (3) are part of my playstyle now, but I didn't know that having all rivals Gracious stopped the others starting the UN. (At least with 2 superpowers they don't call a vote. )

I'd have thought SETI was mandatory and UN impossible, but do the AI's really let an 'adored' human build the UN, when all they have to do is build it so no-one can vote for the human?


(typo edited)

	07-05-2003 05:30									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus (2) and (3) are part of my playstyle now, but I didn't know that having all rivals Gracious stopped the others starting the UN. (At least with 2 superpowers they don't call a vote. )

I don't know if having Gracious rivals stops the AI from building the UN. I don't think it does, but since I'm usually researching somewhere else, I can't guarantee that I'll get to build it.

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I'd have thought SETI was mandatory and UN impossible, but do the AI's really let an 'adored' human build the UN, when all they have to do is build it so no-one can vote for the human?

Actually, I do think SETI is mandatory, but since I get Rocketry free, I usually research Space Flight first and use it to trade for Computers. Depending how that occurs, I build either Space Flight or SETI first.

And sometimes, I get to build the UN. It's hard to tell why the AI researches Fission, though. I think it is just as much for the Manhattan Project as it is for the UN.

And regarding your question about keeping a balance between powers, I'm still trying to figure that one out. I would have thought having everyone equal would pay off. But, I've sometimes found having a single laggard helps things along. Maybe. I'm not sure.

- TT

	07-05-2003 09:49									#248
	Re: Researching in the Modern Age under Deity Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by ToeTruck 1) Don’t always sell the techs for the most gold and gold/turn deals you can get. Sometimes you want the AI to have money. Sometimes you don’t. - TT

Thanks for the advice on what Techs to research in the Modern Age. I will definitely use them when I start playing again this weekend.

I don't quite understand (1). Since it's OCC, I normally try to max out the GPT, so that when it comes to building the space components, I can use the golds to rush them.

Have a nice day.

	07-05-2003 10:57									#249
	Re: Re: Researching in the Modern Age under Deity Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by rush I don't quite understand (1). Since it's OCC, I normally try to max out the GPT

I, too, normally max out my gpt. I figure you need at least 10,000 gold to get you through the Modern Age plus 5,000 - 10,000 to get out of the Industrial Age. So, gold is good, right?

But, once you face the reality of researching Satellites while also needing Nuclear Power and Computers, you begin to realize the value of a little help. Under Deity, there's no way you can research all 10 SS techs yourself.

Remember, gold from the AI comes to you as straight revenue without the benefit of your Marketplace and Bank. Meanwhile, that commerece does *not* benefit from the AI's Libraries and Universities. In the Modern Age, I'd rather have the AI using his Science City Improvements while I buy or trade from him at bargain rates.

quote: Originally posted by rush so that when it comes to building the space components, I can use the golds to rush them.

In Civ3, you can't rush the SS components. Gold's best use is for buying tech. Use Factory, Hydro Plant, and Nuclear Plant to increase your production. Iron Works is cool, but you can't count on it.

Later.

- TT

	07-05-2003 18:16									#250
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well this is my first AU game and I must say that it didn't go all that well... I started by placing my city on the desert since I figured that this was going to be better then having to use it later on. I decided to go for greece as my choice of civ (playing vanilla civ 1.29) since they have a nice UU and the free tech in the beginning of each age.

The start was really nice, I beelined to GL and during this time I built all the improvements availible and some hoplites. The hoplites went out and did some seroius discovering until the barbs started coming from everywhere. During this time my city prospered but I lost a worker. After placing several colonies for luxs and building the GL i figured that this was going to be to easy and that maybe monarch were to low a difficulty for me. The things started to go sore way to fast!

First both the indians and the iroquis (spelling?) came with settler after settler. The iroquas placed a settler so that they got a free ivory, on the hill and the indians took what I saw as my furs! At least peace wasn't a problem, neither wante to wage war against me. This is also when I started getting annoyed with not being on the coast. I had nothing to build but hoplites or wealth for quite some turns.

After a while we got contact with rome, england and the zulus on the other continent. Since I got contact with none and I had done no exploring the contacts and world maps were quite expensive for a while! But still, I got quite a lot of cash and I had a well developed land so I was still confident!

Then the free fall began. Education made the GL obsolete and the things went downhill. I tried to do some research by my self but it didn't really help all that much. Since neither of my close neibours built any harbours the were no trading ivory for techs as my first thought was. I managed to grab Shakespears a few secounds before everyone else by a prebuild of wall street. I lost 160 shields but it was well worth it!

This was the last positive thing in this game. After that they started to ask for this and that until I said no and they said war! After a few turns wars started erupting here and there. My only allies were the english and the indians. This didn't last long though since they both got annihilated. Since the only harbours next to me were iroqois all my trades got stopped and that ment that even though I could trade every now and then nobody traded techs for Ivory, only gpt or other luxs. In the end I played a purely defensive war with hoplites against cavs. At the end I figured that I might have a chance to grab the victory due to the 20k culture in one city rule. So, three peace treaties that took all my money away and complete focus on building troops to stands against my foes.

I actually thoguht that I was going to make it for a while. I got nationalism for free, upgraded and kept all the pesky cavs away. Started counting on how long befor the 20k limit and held my breath. In the end I got 19950 culture points. I was researching industrilisation and they were building the SDI...

Well the next time I'll build on the coast and build the collosus!

	08-05-2003 14:39									#251
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TT,

I've now studied your log - wow, and thanks. A few points if you don't mind ...

1. You built 4 hoplites ; the log says one went exploring - did a second join it or guard for local barbs?

2. In the save, your Modern Age army was 2 rifles, with rubber in the warehouse. Is the Inf upgrade a waste of gold and is that all you need - 2 defenders? It makes the dozens of MI that some people built look a bit excessive.

3. Was the early worker to help with happiness, or to ensure that tile improvements preceded growth? In 1250BC you joined the workers to make size 12 - how complete were the improvements by then, and did you want the extra pop for wonders rather than, say, roads on the ivory-forests?

4. Did you go for Flight because the AIs hadn't?

5. What about Shake's? It's a great OCC wonder but can advance an unrequited culture win.

6. The Commercial Dock, cost=2 and only 3 tiles to work on, boosted my Science by 12 from 368 to 380. Seems profitable to me - why did you pass it up?

	09-05-2003 00:52									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus 1. You built 4 hoplites ; the log says one went exploring - did a second join it or guard for local barbs?

IIRC, my largest military was 2 warriors and 4 hoplites. I think I had 3 hpolites exploring. I don't like to pay for unit support, so as soon as the island was mapped, I moved the hoplites home and disbanded the extra units until I had 2 hoplites in my capital and one in the mountains.

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus 2. In the save, your Modern Age army was 2 rifles, with rubber in the warehouse. Is the Inf upgrade a waste of gold and is that all you need - 2 defenders? It makes the dozens of MI that some people built look a bit excessive.

Yes, having more than a couple of units just costs you gold. If the AI declares War, you've had it. Not because you'll be eliminated (you probably will be), but because it takes a really long time to get him back to Gracious *and* he's sure to have an influence on your other rivals.

In this game, I only had 212 gold at the end so even upgrading my Rifleman to Infantry would have put the game at risk.

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus 3. Was the early worker to help with happiness, or to ensure that tile improvements preceded growth? In 1250BC you joined the workers to make size 12 - how complete were the improvements by then, and did you want the extra pop for wonders rather than, say, roads on the ivory-forests?

I usually join my workers to make size 12 as soon as I have 12 tiles developed to produce 24 food and maximize shields. In this case: One irrigated Wheat, one irrigated Flood Plain, one irrigated Plains, one mined Grassland (under a Forest), four Grasslands with shields, and the four Forest with Ivory. Nothing else was developed.

That gave 24 food, 21 shields (20 with corruption), and 37 commerce (35 with corruption).

Sometimes, though, if I think the AI can beat me to a Wonder, I might drop the workers in extra early. That can give a short-term benefit of 20+ shields.

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus 4. Did you go for Flight because the AIs hadn't?

Yes, I thought the AI was going straight for Motorized Transport. I knew I would have to buy my way out of the Industrial Age, so I researched what I thought would be the most valuable tech to trade.

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus 5. What about Shake's? It's a great OCC wonder but can advance an unrequited culture win.

I've never built Shake's in a Deity - OCC game. It's a beauty if you can get it, but since I usually stop my city at 20 pop and I am on good terms with the AI, I usually have enough luxuries.

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus 6. The Commercial Dock, cost=2 and only 3 tiles to work on, boosted my Science by 12 from 368 to 380. Seems profitable to me - why did you pass it up?

Yep, I remember passing over it many times thinking: "I only have 3 tiles to work. I'm too busy to bother." I think you are right that it is amost always worth it.

Thanks for reading Cort.

- TT

	09-05-2003 01:01									#253
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Call it an unconventional approach but I didn't build the SETI wonder in my emperor game. I had so much $$ I decided to steal techs to win...

I think its been said enough but I can't stress how important it is to get techs the AI will usually pass up. For example, getting the Theory of Evolution will easily net you Atomic Theory and Electronics, two techs the AI will usually be slow to get anyway.

	09-05-2003 01:04									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Vlado Well this is my first AU game and I must say that it didn't go all that well... I started by placing my city on the desert since I figured that this was going to be better then having to use it later on. I decided to go for greece as my choice of civ (playing vanilla civ 1.29) since they have a nice UU and the free tech in the beginning of each age.

You should definiteyl build on the coast. The best spot IMO is the hill south of the starting position. Oh, and that's not desert, that's a flood plain which is one more reason NOT to build there as you'll be passing up some usefull foods.

-MZ

	09-05-2003 01:45									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Call it an unconventional approach but I didn't build the SETI wonder in my emperor game. I had so much $$ I decided to steal techs to win...

I agree that I wouldn't call SETI a required Wonder in OCC (like say...the Great Library), but it makes the Modern Age a touch more manageable.

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I think its been said enough but I can't stress how important it is to get techs the AI will usually pass up. For example, getting the Theory of Evolution will easily net you Atomic Theory and Electronics, two techs the AI will usually be slow to get anyway.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that researching what the AI is not researching is the way to go. As long as you actually *need* those techs.

Regarding, the Theory of Evolution, I have never won an OCC - Deity game without it.

- TT

	09-05-2003 01:58									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Call it an unconventional approach but I didn't build the SETI wonder in my emperor game. I had so much $$ I decided to steal techs to win...

I've never stolen a tech - what are the chances of success and the risks of war? Do spies make a difference?

	09-05-2003 12:14									#257
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well if thats desert I guess that I'´ll have to do it differently next time. Time to try again...

	09-05-2003 12:36									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I've never stolen a tech - what are the chances of success and the risks of war? Do spies make a difference?

If your rival's attitude is not very favorable there is a very high risk of them declaring war.

What I did was switch to Communism when I stopped researching (after getting Space Flight), communism gives you much better odds of successful stealing at normal and careful levels.

Also, for example, you'd do the careful research on the nations you most have to lose from if war were to occur, Korea in this case. With civs on the other continent you can risk a normal steal if you're short on cash.

	12-05-2003 17:58									#259
	Inflate your Upload Space

Part IV. Modern Age

Continued from where I left off, OCC Monarch, non-PTW v1.29.

I entered the Modern Age with 20000+ Gold, +80gpt and a Tech lead in Rocketry, as I was playing scientific Greece and received one free advance. But I had a problem. My rivals, the Indian, English and Roman trio were researching different Techs and were actively exchanging among themselves. They always get the same Tech on the same turn. There was no chance of trading. .

I went for Computer. I did not sell Rocketry until 10 turns into the Modern Age, so as to "buy time" before the rivals started researching Space Flight and built Apollo Program. The sales netted me about +250gpt, and my overall income was about +350gpt. This gold later came in handy as I lost out Computer by about 2 turns, and had to buy Fission, Space Flight, and subsequently Superconductor, Satellites, Ecology, Synthetic Fibers. I went for Nuclear Power, got it first, and held on to it for The Laser.

Still on research, the AI made "mistakes" in researching for Advanced Flight, Recycling, Miniaturization, before going for Nuclear Power and The Laser. If they had gone straight for Nuclear Power and The Laser, I would never win.

On units/Wonder building, I built 4 Tanks, 5 Bombers, 2 battleship to add to my existing 20 Infantry units, while waiting for Computers/Fission. Built UN in 1824AD, pre-built SETI. Once Space Flight came, I dropped SETI and switched to Apollo Program. Built Apollo in 1836AD, and started building Space components. Only switched to Nuclear Plant (rush in 1 turn) and Research Lab (1 turn) in between.

While building Space components, I checked what resources were required. 2 components - Fuel Cells (Uranium) and Exterior Casing (Rubber) needed material other than Alumimium. So I built these 2 units as soon as possible to ensure that I don't run out of these materials, as playing in OCC means I had to import all resources for the space ship. Meanwhile, I was also looking out for opportunities to create War between India/England/Roman in order to slow down their Space ship building.

I was lucky. India declared war with Roman before I planned to intervene. But I had to watch out - Roman was my sole source of Rubber, and I was importing Aluminium and Uranium from India. Eventually, England joined force with India, and I was sitting on the fence.

I pre-built ICBM a couple of turns before The Laser, and immediately switched to SS Party Lounge once I got The Laser. Launched Space Ship on the same turn The Laser was researched, and just beat India.

The 3 main reasons I won were - 1. My rivals were not focused, and went for irrelevant Techs like Recycling, Miniturization, while I went for The Laser 2. I had enough gold to buy the expensive Techs (at the end I had less than 1000 gold) and 3. I went straight for Apollo and space ship components, and did not spent turns building SETI, Mass Transit & other city units. The War helped too.

Attachment: greece space race.jpg
This has been downloaded 155 time(s).

Last edited by rush on 12-05-2003 at 18:09

	16-05-2003 08:17									#260
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Nice games all. I finished in 1946 w/ cultural victory. Built 13 wonders and all available buildings, of course. Just finished an SS victory in GOTM19 so didn't feel like going that direction.

DaveMcW....incredible win. As good as 2cc conquest on large map I saw last month.

	16-05-2003 22:50									#261
	Increase Your PM Length

My first AU game AND My first OCC game.

Anyways. I cheated. Cause I lost twice as Bab and German... So I had a very good knowledge of the map when I retried it the third time unfourtunately. Being a warmonger that I am, I went for conquest.

Second I didnt play at Monarch+. I always played my games at regent so I didnt wanna have to get used to another difficulty level. Also, Conquest on OCC alone would have been difficult. No matter what level it was, so I stuck with regent.

By the third time (Germans again), I got the hang of just having one city, and didnt repeat the mistake that I made during the last two times. I planned to play out as aggressive as possible using military alliance to help me win wars, and by industrial era everything was going just as I planned (well sort of). Now at this time I was expecting to push on with panzers and finish of the big two civs (Rome and English) w/o their resource aid (meaning I have to stock up on hell of alot of tanks before declaring war) when I am fighting the last civ.

Well it didnt work out exactly as I planned, and not being able to colonize resource in other continent w/o a city in there always made me reliant on other civ to provide the resource for me. Had it have been pangea, conquest might have been more favorable, but then again if its pangeatic I would have had to worry about enemy invading my territory much easily.

It was really fun though. And I learned alot. I'll have to try other Non OCC AU games before I'll come back to this one though.

	17-05-2003 03:08									#262
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Dominae.......Any chance that AU303 will be another OCC

	17-05-2003 03:56									#263
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quote: Originally posted by CorpusScorpius Dominae.......Any chance that AU303 will be another OCC

That's an interesting idea. Usually (apart from "The Power of Gold) we've always moved on to different themes, but there's no rule against duplicates. It all depends on what people want to play; if there's interest for another AU game, we'll have one!

AU401 is going pretty slow. We'll wait a bit, then post some polls about the next course.


Dominae

	17-05-2003 06:38									#264
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

What was AU301? Does the "3" imply some sort of theme? Like OCC? Heh. Lots of questions.

Incidentally, I'd love to play another AU - OCC game. This last one was a ton of fun. Or, I have a couple of ideas for good twists on OCC.

How does an AU game get created? Do I snag the AU mod or is there some "keeper of the AU" I should contact?

- TT

	19-05-2003 23:22									#265
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Wow.

Some day I'm going to try out OCC, but I get the feeling I won't have enough patience for the extreme micromanaging required to do it right, and I KNOW I won't have the patience to write up the impressive logs some of you have.

The thread was a good read, though.

-Arrian

	20-05-2003 11:42									#266
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Wow. Some day I'm going to try out OCC, but I get the feeling I won't have enough patience for the extreme micromanaging required to do it right, -Arrian

Arrian, not really. In OCC, it's RELATIVELY EASY to micromanage because you have only have 1 city and not more than 10 workers to manage.

	21-05-2003 01:47									#267
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

You know, I find the micromanagement in an OCC game to be a lots of fun. Whereas, when I have a 100 cities spread across two continents, it becomes totally un-fun.

In OCC, the small decisions are magnified. That's part of the challenge I really enjoy.

When mining a certain tile before roading it lets you build Cope's one turn ahead of the Russians, you start to get little hyper-focused. In a weeny sort of way, it's a bit of a rush.

- TT

	21-05-2003 02:56									#268
	Put an end to popups!

I completed my OCC game and had mixed results (Emperor level), which means I lost. I started very well, and was was doing great technologically. My reputation was impeckable.

Then I made a key error of delaying a Research Wonder (can't remember the name) and just never recovered. I had a city with awesome production capabilities, but the other civs were building wonders before I got the tech. I paid a ton of money for what techs I had and I research at 10% (even at 100% it would take 40 turns).

I completely enjoyed the experience. I am going to try the same scenerio again. I think my biggest error was not thinking and planning enough during the middle turns. I had a great plan in the early game, and it worked. Then by the time I realized I was behind, there was no recovery.

I have more details on the game at home, but will not bore you with them. I will do a better write up on my second attempt. I may not win, but I will improve.

	21-05-2003 10:02									#269
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lmtoops, I've not seen you around AU before: welcome! Nice to see you're going back to apply what you've learned.

To the others I've not commented specifically on: well done.

I will stop cheerleading now.


Dominae

	21-05-2003 20:10									#270
	Increase Your PM Length

When the PTW Democracy game when down (for a month), I need an outlet. I checked out the Strategy thread and found AU. I've enjoyed this course and the current course.I had the fortune of winning the current course, which is good.

In any case, I am ready to try again AU302. Concentrate on getting more commerce (whale, gold, and ivory). And hopefully get all the "research wonders".