16-04-2003 15:09									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Ned I do not recall a more intelligent high-level official since Kissinger.

Own goal!

	16-04-2003 15:15									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Look, pretty much the entire arab world already believe the US attacked Iraq to get its oil. Why confirm that belief?

cause they can?

	16-04-2003 16:51									#63
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Kissinger was directly responsible for at least 3 million civilian casualties in cambodja ...

a real genius was at work here ...

and rumsfeld isn't one bit better in his right wing views ...
only he doesn't wrap it up so well.

but in the end, he will fail in the ultimate goal of reducing the global terrorist treath.

	16-04-2003 16:52									#64
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Rumsfeld is an 4sshole.

	16-04-2003 16:53									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Kissinger was directly responsible for at least 3 million civilian casualties in cambodja ...

*AHEM* Wasn't even close to that. Even people who would be considered on the far left (John Pilger, for example) don't claim he was responsible for that many dead.

	16-04-2003 16:56									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Gt: Doesn't change the fact that Kissinger was an evil piece of crap as well.

	16-04-2003 16:57									#67
	Put an end to popups!

before the american bombardements the kmer rouge was an obscure band of "freedomfighters". The amercian governement caused the cambodian regime to collapse. This resulted in at least 3 million civilian casulties.
So I don't say the bombardements killed that many, but the consequences of Kissinger's actions have led to it...
So he isn't responsible ?

	16-04-2003 16:57									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Gt: Doesn't change the fact that Kissinger was an evil piece of crap as well.

I know, I agree with you, but it's important not to inflate things too much.

	16-04-2003 16:58									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: before the american bombardements the kmer rouge was an obscure band of "freedomfighters". The amercian governement caused the cambodian regime to collapse. This resulted in at least 3 million civilian casulties. So I don't say the bombardements killed that many, but the consequences of Kissinger's actions have led to it... So he isn't responsible ?

Yes, but even the Khmer Rouge didn't kill that many.

	16-04-2003 17:00									#70
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It's really not possible for us to know. I think the total estimated death toll of South East Asians from 1963-1975 is like 4 million+. And the blame is shared. Although Kissinger wanted to use the bomb on Hanoi. Good idea

	16-04-2003 17:03									#71
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: It's really not possible for us to know.

True. The onyl way to come up with an estimate is to look at known population figures before and after, and in places like Cambodia the records didn't tend to be very good.

quote: I think the total estimated death toll of South East Asians from 1963-1975 is like 4 million+.

I have no real idea what the precise death toll was, but, yes, ti was definitely in the millions. You can probably add an extra 500 000+ from the Indonesian massacres too.

quote: Although Kissinger wanted to use the bomb on Hanoi. Good idea

He did!? I didn't think even he was that insane...

	16-04-2003 17:05									#72
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

the bombardements combined with a decade of civil war, famine and a total collapse of the governement system have let to three million of casualties ...

and frankly i don't see a large difference with the situation in afghanistan.
first the US do something right and remove the TALIBAN regime so far i am with you. But then the governement doesn't claim responsibility for the vacuum of power they created -> civil war ...

	16-04-2003 17:06									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: the bombardements combined with a decade of civil war, famine and a total collapse of the governement system have let to three million of casualties ...

Can I see a source for that?

	16-04-2003 17:14									#74
	Full PM-box? Change here!

"Estimates of the dead range from 1 to 3 million, out of a 1975 population estimated at 7.3 million. "

from http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2732.htm
about half way the page ...

	16-04-2003 17:17									#75
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Note the word 'estimates'. The fact that the upper limit of something has been put as that doesn't mean that it necessarily is that.

	16-04-2003 17:23									#76
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

this was just a quick search ...

On a TV documentary I say about a month ago american historians mentionned three million casualties as a very plausible number ...

And beside the number, being responsible for the deaths of over a million people, shouldn't that be an adequate warning not to make the same mistake twice ?

	16-04-2003 17:26									#77
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: this was just a quick search ... On a TV documentary I say about a month ago american historians mentionned three million casualties as a very plausible number ...

Well, who were these historians, and where did they get this from? If you could find this with just a quick search, surely you can find something which supports your point better...

quote: And beside the number, being responsible for the deaths of over a million people, shouldn't that be an adequate warning not to make the same mistake twice ?

What on earth are you saying here?

	16-04-2003 17:28									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

i think that's rumsfeld line when someone doesn't agree with his point of view

	16-04-2003 17:30									#79
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

And I still don't understand it. Presumably he's referring to Saddam Hussein; what does he mean?

	16-04-2003 17:32									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

no i was referring to the general consequences of the US's current foreign policy ...

	16-04-2003 17:33									#81
	Get a bigger avatar today!

'My' foreign policy? I'm not even an American, and I certainly don't support either Bush or Howard's current foreign policy.

	16-04-2003 17:34									#82
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

sorry, got carried away ...
already corrected it ...

	16-04-2003 17:40									#83
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Sava It's really not possible for us to know. I think the total estimated death toll of South East Asians from 1963-1975 is like 4 million+. And the blame is shared. Although Kissinger wanted to use the bomb on Hanoi. Good idea

IIRC this was a bluff run by the Nixon administration. It was called "The Madman" strategy, whereby Nixon would play the dangerous madman while Kissinger would pretend to intercede on behalf rationality with his "madman" boss. The idea was to gain leverage with whoever the con was being run on. In this case it was the North Vietnamese and their allies.

Those figures on Cambodia are blown way out of proportion btw. The population of Cambodia at the time was estimated to be about 8 million. Two million were estimated killed by the Khmer Rouge. Four million killed would make the bombing campaign in Cambodia the most deadly campaign in human history by killing 50% of the population of an entire country. It would also mean that the Khmer Rouge would have tied that record by again reducing the population by 50%, leaving Cambodia with a 75% mortaility rate for the war. It didn't happen.

	16-04-2003 17:42									#84
	Inflate your Upload Space

Who claimed the bombing campaign killed four million Cambodians? Sava claimed that from 1963-75, four million SE Asians were killed.

	16-04-2003 17:50									#85
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by dannubis before the american bombardements the kmer rouge was an obscure band of "freedomfighters". The amercian governement caused the cambodian regime to collapse. This resulted in at least 3 million civilian casulties. So I don't say the bombardements killed that many, but the consequences of Kissinger's actions have led to it... So he isn't responsible ?

Oops, my bad, it was dannubis who claimed 3 million dead in Cambodia for everything. Blaming Kissinger for this is still an exercize in extreme overstatement. The North Vietnamese started it by using Cambodia for a road and military base. By the time the U.S. came into Cambodia 1/3 of it was occupied by the NVA and their allies. The U.S. tried to prop up the Cambodian regime so that it could resist militarily, but Sianhouk was already in the hands of the communists. Nationalist military officers led by Lon Nol staged a coup (with a green light from Washington) while Sianhouk was in China getting instructions from his masters.

Giving the U.S. all of the blame for this is more than a little absurd. Giving Kissinger all of the U.S. share of the blame magnifies him far more than he deserves.

	16-04-2003 19:11									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

In this war, there was nobody who wasn't at fault. Kissinger was just one of the more evil people involved. MacNamara was probably more at fault, but he had better intentions.

	16-04-2003 19:24									#87
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yay! Uncle Rummy!

	16-04-2003 20:12									#88
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Rumsfeld is a completely inept politician.

His only bonus is that he speaks his mind, unlike brighter people like Powell who follow the group's official position. He is not always right, far from it : "free people are free to make mistakes and commit crime" is a classic of stupidity, except if you consider yourself not to be free. Yeas, he was right The myth of Rumsfeld being always right comes solely from the unexpected success of his strategy in Iraq.

Before, he has managed to completely break the relations with France and Germany which resulted in their resolute NO in the UN (I'm not saying Rummy is the only cretin in this charade). With his brutal approach, he has managed to not have the big Arab countries behing him against Iraq. And he has managed to tell the world antics that please the American conservative audience, and pisses off the whole world, with all the impact on US image it has.

I highly suspect Rummy-apologists here just love the guy because he pisses "snotty European elites and intellectuals", or crap like that. It is true, Rumsfeld pisses off snotty European intellectuals. As well as regular people from Europe. As well as regular people from all around the world. As well as all responsible American politicians and citizens that understand the US cannot consistently give the world the finger without opening a period of trouble.

If you think it is Right to give the world the finger, and to tell speeches whose message wouldn't fit a 5 year old, Rumsfeld deserves to be your hero.
If you think the US should actually think before acting, you should send Rumsfeld to retirement ASAP.

	16-04-2003 20:36									#89
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think Rumsfield is a cold war relic and has fallen to serious political errours and declarations which cost him and his country in the long run.

I also think that in a twisted way he will prove to be very beneficial for the unity of the EU.

	16-04-2003 21:30									#90
	Support Apolyton

Spiffor, et al., Rumsfeld is not in charge of State. He is in charge of Defense. He should be judged on that.

As to the French and Germans, you are not going to get many people in the US to believe that the only reason for French and German support of Saddam is because of Rumsfeld. I think inspection of the illegal French and German arm sales to Iraq will long predate Rumsfeld.

If the French and Germans are mad at Rumsfeld denoting them as "old Europe," well, surprise, most Americans agree with Rumsfeld.

The problem you have in France and Germany is anti-Americanism. This has nothing to do with Rumsfeld.