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Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 11:45
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quote:
I know that I know that Rummy's my hero
by Stephen Pollard

Forget the usual faux pas. Ignore the standard forms of social death. I used to think that I had only one way of guaranteeing that I could stun anyone into horrified silence: telling them that I think we would all be safer if we could carry guns.

But over the past few months I have discovered a far more potent weapon of public self-destruction. I tell people that Donald Rumsfeld is my political hero.

The reaction is always — always — the same. First there is a belly laugh. Then that turns into a nervous giggle as they notice that I am not laughing with them. The giggle then dries up into a two or three-second silence, and the colour drains from their cheeks. If they are sitting down, they put their head in their hands; if they are standing, they freeze. And then they say it: “Oh. My. God. Are you being serious?”

I am, indeed. Let me spell it out for you, in case you think that I am joking. The American Defence Secretary is my hero.

What makes people’s reaction so bizarre is that, whatever the attributes for which most of us look in a politician, Donald Rumsfeld has them all. He always says exactly what he means. He tells it as he sees it. He has decades of experience in the real world. He is witty. He is imaginative. He thinks for himself. He inspires loyalty. Even better, he is prepared to stand up for his beliefs and treat the smug superiority of the trimmers, appeasers and Euro-elites with the contempt that they deserve. What more could one want in a politician?

Ah yes, I have just remembered one other thing that you would want in a politician: he is right. Always.

And that is the root of it, of course. The real reason why Rummy inspires such contempt among bien pensant types is that they cannot bear the thought that he is right. They loathe him because the that fact he is right boomerangs back at them all their self-righteous, haughty, “Americans are so coarse” complacent beliefs.

Donald Rumsfeld is the living, breathing proof that they are wrong.


I know exactly what would have happened if the war plan — Rumsfeld’s war plan, as we were so frequently told when the doom-mongers thought that it was all going wrong, but which in victory is, of course, now Tommy Franks’s — had turned out to be a huge mistake. He would have been endlessly pilloried. It was barely a week ago, after all, that we were told by supposedly well-informed experts that Rumsfeld and his associates were for the highest of high jumps. But because everyone loves a loser, in ten years or so he would have been the beneficiary of the Tony Benn effect: we would look back and chuckle at his remarks — batty, of course, but dontcha just luvim?

“As we know, there are known knowns,” as Rumsfeld said. “There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.”

Benn is loved precisely because he is wrong. If he had been right about anything, he would not be cuddly tea-drinker of the year, he would be “hard man of the Left”.

Donald Rumsfeld suffers from a critical impediment: he is right. He was right about “shock and awe”. He was right about his war plan. He was right about coalition troops being hailed as liberators. He was right about old and new Europe. He was right about. . . oh, take your pick.

That is the thing about Donald Rumsfeld: he is right, you are wrong and you are just going to have come to terms with it.


Stephen Pollard is a senior fellow at the Centre for the New Europe, in Brussels


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-647988,00.html

I've been torn in my view of Rumsfeld for some time now. I tend to be closer to Powell in my political views, so Rumsfeld is supposed to be my natural enemy. I could never hate him, however; in fact, I found myself liking him more and more as time went on. Now I know why. He does represent everything that I want out of a leader. He's intelligent, dynamic, humorous and brutally honest. And he is right, even when I wish that he wasn't.

I've come to terms with my love for Rummy. Can you? Just admit the man into your heart and your world will become a better place...

monkspider is offline monkspider
King
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Aug 2001
time: 23:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 11:48
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For an evil guy, I always found Rummy surprisingly likeable.
He's probably my favorite member of the Bush administration actually.

Last edited by monkspider on 16-04-2003 at 11:56

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
Warlord
USA
Jul 2002
time: 22:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 11:54
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Why is Rummy evil? Or maybe the world is truly an evil place, and he is just being realistic?

Asher is offline Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 11:55 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by monkspider
For an evil guy, I always found Rummy surprisingly likeable.

I think it's because he's so straightforward.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 11:57
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quote:
He's probably my favorite member of the Bush administration actually.




I never thought my thread would yield this kind of shocking revelation...

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:02
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"Why is Rummy evil? "

He is evil to monkspider the same away any cabinet member under a Democratic presidency is considered evil by Jerry Falwell and ilk

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
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Jul 2002
time: 22:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:03
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Politics, partisanships, sigh...

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
time: 22:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:07 Visit Asher's homepage!
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To quote Jaguar Warrior from the "how you seem" thread:
quote:
Asher: Says what's on my mind exactly, but is not at all tactful about it. Like Donald Rumsfeld.

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
King
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Apr 1999
time: 05:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:14 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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What makes people’s reaction so bizarre is that, whatever the attributes for which most of us look in a politician, Adolf Hitler has them all. He always says exactly what he means. He tells it as he sees it. He has decades of experience in the real world. He is witty. He is imaginative. He thinks for himself. He inspires loyalty.


Not saying that Rumsfeld is Hitler, mind you, just that one need to pare these qualities with something else to have a good guy.

Rumsfeld scares the crap out of me right now. Not as much as Bush, but just about as much as Ashcroft...

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:24
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Who would've thought that CyberGnu would be the one to bring up Hitler? Oh well, I guess we are speaking about political heroes...

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
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Apr 1999
time: 05:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:29 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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quote:
Who would've thought that CyberGnu would be the one to bring up Hitler? Oh well, I guess we are speaking about political heroes...


How old are you, exactly? Five?

dannubis is offline dannubis
Chieftain
Ghent
Apr 2002
time: 06:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:39
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he is not evil...
he just doesn't understand that not everybody in the world sees the solution to problems the same way as he does...
but hey, we've had some other lovely characters in history who made the same mistake ...

dannubis is offline dannubis
Chieftain
Ghent
Apr 2002
time: 06:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:41
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don't bother
if rumsfeld is your hero than everbody is entitled to have their own oppinion ... and to shut up

Last edited by dannubis on 16-04-2003 at 12:47

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
Warlord
USA
Jul 2002
time: 22:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:41
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Rumsfeld scares the crap out of me right now. Not as much as Bush, but just about as much as Ashcroft...


I don't think he is scary.

Jaguar is offline Jaguar
King
Montgomery County, MD
Apr 2000
time: 00:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:44
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Cybergnu is using his famous "make outrageous statements that piss people off so they in turn make outrageous statements and end up looking stupid" tactic.

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
King
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Apr 1999
time: 05:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:45 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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Dannubis,
quote:
he is not evil...
he just doesn't understand that not everybody in the world sees the solution to problems the same way as he does...
but hey, we've had some other lovely characters in history who made the same mistake ...


I think it goes a little bit beyond that...

I agree, I don't think Rumsfeld is evil in the traditional sense, but I think he is sorely lacking in wisdom.

and the question is, what is worse: A man like Saddam, who while evil is largely powerless, or a man like Rumsfeld, who while clueless also has great power...

Or to put it another way: Is a boy pulling the wings of a fly worse than a drunk man with a flamethrower?

Edited to include Dannubis quote

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
King
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Apr 1999
time: 05:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:49 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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JW, what outrageus statement?

Are you actually saying that I equate Rumsfeld with Hitler? What part of "Not saying that Rumsfeld is Hitler, mind you," was it that didn't register?

Or is it outrageous to point out the huge logical flaw in the post: that these qualities are only good if they come with other qualities, such as wisdom and morals?

You tell me. What is the outrageous part?

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
Warlord
USA
Jul 2002
time: 22:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:50
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CyberGnu is probably one of the people who think "that if we attack the terrorists, they will hate us more and will commit more terror acts..."

Jaguar is offline Jaguar
King
Montgomery County, MD
Apr 2000
time: 00:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:50
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None in this thread. Your rivalry with DT goes back to before that.

Jaguar is offline Jaguar
King
Montgomery County, MD
Apr 2000
time: 00:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
CyberGnu is probably one of the people who think "that if we attack the terrorists, they will hate us more and will commit more terror acts..."

Another falls victim to the Cybergnu tactic.

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
King
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Apr 1999
time: 05:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:53 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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Rivalry? He called me an anti-semite, I asked him to substantiate, he has still not responded.

That's not rivalry. Intellectual dihonesty, if done solely to discredit israeli critism, or juvenile name-calling otherwise.

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
Warlord
USA
Jul 2002
time: 22:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior

Another falls victim to the Cybergnu tactic.


Did I say anything outrageous?

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
King
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Apr 1999
time: 05:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:57 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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quote:
CyberGnu is probably one of the people who think "that if we attack the terrorists, they will hate us more and will commit more terror acts..."


There is a pretty hefty grey area, don't you think? In a place like Afganistan, where the al-quida had tacit help from the local goverment, I don't have a problem with deposing that goverment. Of course, non-violent measures should be sought first - simply present an ultimatum.

But in a case like Iraq, where there still isn;t any connection between Saddam and Al-quida, what is the motivation? Do you actually believe the US has REDUCED the threat level against the US by the actions of the last month?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 12:58
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quote:
Your rivalry with DT goes back to before that.


I wouldn't call it a rivalry. More like an intense distaste for CyberGnu's personal politics...

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
King
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Apr 1999
time: 05:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 13:00 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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quote:
Another falls victim to the Cybergnu tactic.


And that tactic would be? To present critique far beoynd the intellectual level of the critiqued, thus forcing him to reply with a juvenile insult?

Lord Merciless is offline Lord Merciless
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Jul 2002
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  Old Post 16-04-2003 13:02
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu

But in a case like Iraq, where there still isn;t any connection between Saddam and Al-quida, what is the motivation? Do you actually believe the US has REDUCED the threat level against the US by the actions of the last month?


The Iraqi situation is too premature to conclude. We will know more in a year. The campagn has been going well so far. If the reconstruction goes well, long term threat level goes down. If not, it goes up.

As for the short term threat level, I don't think it has changed in the slightest way. Al-Qaeda are hatching their plans regardless of our actions in Iraq.

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
King
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Apr 1999
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  Old Post 16-04-2003 13:02 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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quote:
I wouldn't call it a rivalry. More like an intense distaste for CyberGnu's personal politics...


Does it make you uncomfortable to have your views exposed as morally corrupt?

There is still a thread waiting for your response.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...20&pagenumber=2

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 13:03
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quote:
To present critique far beoynd the intellectual level of the critiqued, thus forcing him to reply with a juvenile insult?




Yes, because that comparison between Hitler and Rumsfeld was so dead on. I'd forgotten all about Adolf's reputation for wit...

Jaguar is offline Jaguar
King
Montgomery County, MD
Apr 2000
time: 00:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 13:07
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu


And that tactic would be? To present critique far beoynd the intellectual level of the critiqued, thus forcing him to reply with a juvenile insult?

Replace "critique far beyond the intellectual level of the critiqued" with "an outrageous statement most likely using the word 'reprehensible' which is my all-time favorite word" and you'd have it about right.

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
King
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Apr 1999
time: 05:27
  Old Post 16-04-2003 13:10 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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quote:
The Iraqi situation is too premature to conclude. We will know more in a year. The campagn has been going well so far.


In Iraq, yes. But how about the rest of the arab world?

quote:
If the reconstruction goes well, long term threat level goes down. If not, it goes up.


In best case, the US handles the reconstruction perfectly, and you are right. But so little is required to mess it up - the minute the first american oil company sets foot in Iraq, the US has lost the war.

quote:
As for the short term threat level, I don't think it has changed in the slightest way. Al-Qaeda are hatching their plans regardless of our actions in Iraq.


And with the rest of the Arab world incensed, do you think al-Quida funding has gone up or down because of this? Several hundred arabs volunteered to defend Iraq against the US, what do you think they are doing now? Someone angry enough at the US to risk his life in the defense of Saddam, you think he will just go home and pick up his life where it started?

 
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