18-04-2003 21:10									#1
	Bush sure taught North Korea an important lesson Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2959017.stm

quote: The reprocessing of the spent fuel rods was at the "final phase", KCNA reported. "The Iraqi war teaches a lesson that in order to prevent a war and defend the security of a country... it is necessary to have a powerful physical deterrent force," the Foreign Ministry spokesman was quoted as saying.

	18-04-2003 21:12									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yup... the Bush Doctrine is a very responsible and reasonable doctrine that other countries should follow. Once again, the United States is setting an excellent example for the world.

	18-04-2003 21:15									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Of course how is NK's actions any different then what they've been doing for the last half century?

	18-04-2003 21:21									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

They already have nukes. Is this supposed to shock us further?

	18-04-2003 21:24									#5
	Got spare money?

I dont get it, them coming out w/ a half ass justification to wut they were trying to do anyway is suppose to impress someone?

I remember when my brother wouldn't let me play w/ his toys and then I got annoyed and would yell and he'd be like "see I dont let u play w/ ur toys cuz u yelled atme"

ahhhhh memories

	18-04-2003 21:27									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

lets give south korea nukes and then just leave the area to resolve its own problems (as well as overpopulation)

lets see....

Iraq ---> Syria ---> Turkey ---> Iran ---> (afganistan) ---> Pakistan ---> China ---> North Korea

@ 3 weeks per country that'll take 18 weeks

	18-04-2003 21:29									#7
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Of course how is NK's actions any different then what they've been doing for the last half century?

Or the last thousand years... fighting against, and defeating foreign invaders and Imperialists. To the North Koreans, we are no different than the Mongols, the Chinese, the Japanese, etc. I think this is an important point because most Americans don't understand the North Korean point of view.

	18-04-2003 21:35									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by yavoon I dont get it, them coming out w/ a half ass justification to wut they were trying to do anyway is suppose to impress someone?

By succeeding in making themselves REALLY dangerous as opposed to a walkover (like Iraq), they have made sure that the US won't touch them without some form of Star Wars in place - they have proved the doctrine of deterance...

The US doesn't have the guts to go agains NK because despite being far more dangerous and threatening than Iraq, they took the soft option and attacked a nation with no (as yet) proven stockpiles of WoMD without provocation - though it does have a lot of oil...

The US has successfully proved to all nations in its sights that an effective WoMD system is the only way to stop a bully!

Ironic Cheer!

	18-04-2003 21:38									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS The US doesn't have the guts to go agains NK because

... we kind of like Seoul (what with them being well within range of NK artillery and likely to be destroyed as soon as the war starts) despite the headaches they sometimes give us.

	18-04-2003 21:41									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: most Americans don't understand the North Korean point of view.

and I am sure you do.

quote: The US has successfully proved to all nations in its sights that an effective WoMD system is the only way to stop a bully

Those there are fighting words...

It's comments like these that really irk me. Why tempt an ignorant bully? We may be ignorant, but we are no bully... We just don't like turing the other cheek.

	18-04-2003 21:43									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Sava Yup... the Bush Doctrine is a very responsible and reasonable doctrine that other countries should follow. Once again, the United States is setting an excellent example for the world.

Beats the Clinton doctrine of actually believing that Thugocracies and Rogue States are willing to co-exist peacefully with the West.

	18-04-2003 21:46									#12
	Support Apolyton

DL!!!!

Actually the Clinton Doctrine consisted of diplomatic talks. And when diplomacy failed, well look at Kosovo... But good job of trying to insinuate that Bush is a tough guy and Clinton is a peacenik.

Japher: I seem to understand NK more than most.

	18-04-2003 21:49									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Sava DL!!!! Actually the Clinton Doctrine consisted of diplomatic talks. And when diplomacy failed, well look at Kosovo... But good job of trying to insinuate that Bush is a tough guy and Clinton is a peacenik. Japher: I seem to understand NK more than most.

What are you trying to prove? Clinton's North Korea policy failed. He thought he had extracted concessions from the regime while in actuality, they continued their Nuclear Program.

I wouldn't call him a peacenik, but I would call him naive.

	18-04-2003 21:51									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This reminds me of the Civ quote: "Our words are backed by nuclear weapons."

	18-04-2003 21:55									#15
	Remove this text

Getting back on topic... It is hard to say that Bush's policies visa vi Iraq caused North Korea to rush out and develop WoMD when you realize:

1) That NK has had Chemical and biological weapons since atleast the late 1960s.

2) They've been trying to develop nukes at least as long as they've had Chemical & Biological weapons.

3) They had already developed the fissile material they refined into their 2-5 nukes prior to Clinton trying to bribe them into ending their nuke program in 1995.

4) In 1995 the CIA estimated it would take 5-7 years for the NK to reprocess and weapnize the spent fuel rods it had and, low and behold, 7 years later NK announces it has nukes.

Face facts here guys. NK has been doggedly working away at this for decades and Bush's recent policies haven't changed that other then to give them an opportunity to say publicly what they had previously been doing secretly.

	18-04-2003 21:58									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

umm mobius I dont think u need the US to invade iraq to get evidence taht once u acquire nuclear weapons ppl take ur psychotic/bruta/repressive gov't more seriously.

i dont see how the US actually doing something is wrong cuz some other thug now sees that he is in danger. and more to the pt, north korea wanted them neway, this is nothing more than a passive justification.

	18-04-2003 21:59									#17
	Got spare money?

North Korea has learned the lesson 'Don't mess with the U.S.' They are already conceding demands in order to reopen dialogue between NK and the US. They said they are willing to discuss their Nuclear Weapsons program and the recently reactivated nuclear power plant. Besides Bush didn't teach the world that powerful weapons make a powerful deterrant...they've know that for generations

	18-04-2003 22:00									#18
	Suffering from ads?

I won't argue the fact that Clinton's policy was unsuccessful, I simply wanted to point out that the peacenik accusations were false. Clinton's doctrine prevented an increase in tensions. Bush has set us on the course for possibly a nuclear exchange.

	18-04-2003 22:03									#19
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sava I won't argue the fact that Clinton's policy was unsuccessful, I simply wanted to point out that the peacenik accusations were false.

Fair enough

I wasn't accusing Clinton of being an out and out peacenik. I do however think he failed to use force in situations which desperately needed it.

	18-04-2003 22:05									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Wtiberon North Korea has learned the lesson 'Don't mess with the U.S.' They are already conceding demands in order to reopen dialogue between NK and the US. They said they are willing to discuss their Nuclear Weapsons program and the recently reactivated nuclear power plant. Besides Bush didn't teach the world that powerful weapons make a powerful deterrant...they've know that for generations

North Korea knows how powerful the US is. The whole "don't mess with the US" thing is stupid. Kim Jong Il is probably off-his-rocker. Crazy people cannot be deterred by a show of force. And plus, the memory of the stalemate war in Korea is much stronger than anything the US does in some desert, halfway across the world. I'll celebrate the day Jong Il dies. But since he's alive and in control of nuclear weapons, I'd just assume not provoke him.

	18-04-2003 22:05									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

Oerdin is right :
NK's nukes aren't Bush's fault anymore than Clinton's, anymore than Reagan's, or anymore than Mao's. They are Kim Sr. and Jr.'s fault.

However, this thread has a point : the US shows it is willing to use its power without restraint on harmless countries that don't play by the rules. These harmless countries have either to abide by the rules, or to stop being harmless by using a significant portion of their resources into building nukes.

Actually, I think that iran's nuclear program would be much less funded if the reformists had some legitimacy by saying "these funds should rather go to the economy". Bush's behaviour gives much more legitimacy to those who want the Nuclear program to be finished and operational ASAP.

	18-04-2003 22:08									#22
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Wtiberon North Korea has learned the lesson 'Don't mess with the U.S.' They are already conceding demands in order to reopen dialogue between NK and the US. They said they are willing to discuss their Nuclear Weapsons program and the recently reactivated nuclear power plant. Besides Bush didn't teach the world that powerful weapons make a powerful deterrant...they've know that for generations

You are truly a master of international relations and diplomacy.

You really think that DPRK is "conceding" grounds to the US? So far, the US hasn't gotten anything it wanted, while the North Koreans have already gotten the US to resume food shipment. They know that playing hardball all the time is counterproductive.

	18-04-2003 22:10									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Oerdin is right : NK's nukes aren't Bush's fault anymore than Clinton's, anymore than Reagan's, or anymore than Mao's. They are Kim Sr. and Jr.'s fault.

I agree 100%. NK's nukes aren't Bush's fault. The level of tension is Bush's fault. Oh and BTW, a practice of negotiation and level-headed thinking has worked to curb a possible nuclear conflict. It was called the Cold War. When nukes are involved, hesitation, concession, and patience helps keep the peace. A cowboy attitude only gets people killed and leaves the world glowing in the dark.

	18-04-2003 22:10									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

spiffor this is all very apologist. much in the same vein as "if we do somethign against terrorism we will get more terorrists"

it not only becries circular reasoning and a general lack of backbone. but its also coddling the idea that repressive regimes have the same rights as free and stable democracies. or that these regimes in someway were peaceful before we decided to maybe take action against some of them.

	18-04-2003 22:15									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You really think that DPRK is "conceding" grounds to the US?

They've already given up thier demand for talks only with the US.

	18-04-2003 22:15									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by yavoon spiffor this is all very apologist. much in the same vein as "if we do somethign against terrorism we will get more terorrists" it not only becries circular reasoning and a general lack of backbone. but its also coddling the idea that repressive regimes have the same rights as free and stable democracies. or that these regimes in someway were peaceful before we decided to maybe take action against some of them.

Why is it that this is reduced to "My way or the high way"? In the range of tools a statesmen could use to solve a problem, violence and inaction aren't the only ones available.

	18-04-2003 22:18									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor NK's nukes aren't Bush's fault anymore than Clinton's, anymore than Reagan's, or anymore than Mao's. They are Kim Sr. and Jr.'s fault.

I have to disagree with that.

The US foreign policy has always been hostile to communist countries after WWII. In fact, it hasn't been friendly to any countries with governments that don't bow to US interests.
The US will do anything within its power to topple those governments, peaceful or violent, fair or foul, by hook or by crook.

Iraq, Venezuela, Cuba, Grenada, the list keeps going.

The Kims just want to avoid such a fate.

	18-04-2003 22:19									#28
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc They've already given up thier demand for talks only with the US.

Are you going to quote me out of context?

	18-04-2003 22:20									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

UR: Despite my agreeing with you on the US and it's foreign policy (BTW, the US was hostile to Communism since they supported the White Russians during the Russian Revolution), I think that NK would have nukes regardless.

	18-04-2003 22:22									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yavoon :
In my previous post, it is not actions taken against repressive governments that I criticized. It was hostile action. Something needs to be done, I agree on you with that.

But the course of action taken by the Bush admin wasn't the right course.