01-05-2003 18:53									#31
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I doubt it.

One of my relatives (like my great-great uncle or something) on my dad's side knew him before he went to power.

	01-05-2003 19:31									#32
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: the full cost to maintain the Strategic Petroleum Reserve at $5.4 billion;

The US government buys petroleum at market prices just like any other customer, and holds it in the Strategic Petroleum Reserve as a hedge against wartime needs. This is not in any way a subsidy, so there goes half of what Greenpeace claims.

A recent study by Resources For The Future found that the US should raise its gas tax by about 58 cents per gallon to cover the costs of pollution and congestion. Most of what other countries pay above this level has nothing to do with the effects of pollution and congestion, but is simply a way to raise revenue. While the US needs to about double its gas tax, the rest of the world needs to about half theirs.

	01-05-2003 19:33									#33
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This is great, going to be awesome profit-sharing this year!

	01-05-2003 19:41									#34
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quote: the rest of the world needs to about half theirs.

Why? By reducing the amount of needless consume, we ensure that the devices which are important and won't work in any way without fossil fuels can be used in the future.

	01-05-2003 19:42									#35
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If this thread wasn't Fezzed, I'd actually participate with links and stuff.

But I wonder: how does $5.5 billion in oil exploration subsidies (giving Sava the benefit of a doubt here in how he defines "subsidies"), less than 1/2 of 1% of the industry's total revenues, directly subsidize the entire gasoline consumption of the US?

Your numbers don't add up, Sava.

Good point, Adam.

	01-05-2003 19:48									#36
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While the US needs to about double its gas tax

I would add "and spend the tax money on reducing congestion and pollution".

	01-05-2003 19:49									#37
	Inflate your Upload Space

Sava reminds me a lot of that communist Jimmy Carter. Carter would rant and rave about oil company "excess profits." He blamed high oil and gasoline prices on the US oil companies. He blamed the long lines at gas stations and shortages on the oil companies.

This man was an abomination. He was swept from office by Ronald Reagan who spoke the truth. The problem was not the oil companies. The problem was Jimmy Carter. Since we swept Jimmy Carter and price controls from the United States, oil prices dropped dramatically, gasoline shortages ended and prosperity returned to United States.

Down with Jimmy Carter!

Down with Sava!

	01-05-2003 20:00									#38
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Okay Sava. Let's do a little math.

$11,900,000,000 in subsidies in 1995 right?

US population at approx 280,000,000, agreed?

For arguments sake, lets halve that for number of autos, okay?

11,900,000,000/140,000,000 = $85

$85 dollars a year off my fuel bill!!! Well, I guess that does depress my gas price some.

	01-05-2003 20:18									#39
	Got spare money?

Sava and Fez have more in common then either would like to admit, me thinks.

Rant, counterrant.

Good points by Adam Smith.

-Arrian

	01-05-2003 20:22									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Sava and Fez have more in common then either would like to admit, me thinks.

Well Sava is very handsome from what I remember of the pictures he posted.. but he is not like me.

	01-05-2003 20:48									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Actually Fez, the US government has a very anti-capitalistic practice. Gasoline would be about what Europe pays but the US government gives billions in subsidies to the oil companies. Who's the communist? I don't hate profits, I hate companies fleecing the people. Especially in times of need.

The major difference in prices is higher gas taxes in the European countries

	01-05-2003 20:56									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith The US government buys petroleum at market prices just like any other customer, and holds it in the Strategic Petroleum Reserve as a hedge against wartime needs. This is not in any way a subsidy, so there goes half of what Greenpeace claims. A recent study by Resources For The Future found that the US should raise its gas tax by about 58 cents per gallon to cover the costs of pollution and congestion. Most of what other countries pay above this level has nothing to do with the effects of pollution and congestion, but is simply a way to raise revenue. While the US needs to about double its gas tax, the rest of the world needs to about half theirs.

I never really bought/followed the congestion part of the argument. Surely congestion is a self-limiting mechanism.

	01-05-2003 21:08									#43
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Why do leftists always try to say making a profit is a bad, evil, underhanded thing? Hello! If companies didn't make profits then we'd crash and burn the way the Soviet Union did and the way China's state owned industries currently are.

BTW If you are an oil company then 80%+ of your profits comes from pumping crude oil and selling it to refineries not from a low margin business like retail sales.

Last edited by Oerdin on 01-05-2003 at 21:25

	01-05-2003 21:13									#44
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Profit are extremely evil to the leftist cause, oerdin. Very evil. It may raise living standards, but that is also evil to the leftist cause. Anything that helps the people is evil to the leftist cause.

	01-05-2003 21:25									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Why do leftists always try to say making a profit is a bad, evil, underhanded thing? Hello! If companies didn't make profits then we'd crash and burn the way the Soviet Union did and the way China's state owned industries currently are. BTW If you are an oil company which then 80%+ of your profits comes from pumping crude oil and selling it to refineries not from a low margin business like retail sales.

I must not be a leftist because I never said profit was bad.

It's really a shame that people ignore fact because they don't agree with my beliefs or methods. But hey, that's the way the ball bounces.

	01-05-2003 21:26									#46
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And which facts did I ignore? Please do enlighten me...

	01-05-2003 21:27									#47
	Put an end to popups!

The only point I made is that gas prices would be higher if we did away with subsidies. Tell me how this is wrong?

	01-05-2003 21:28									#48
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Sava, your beliefs are facts? You are right. You are here for comical cause. You are making me laugh...

	01-05-2003 21:34									#49
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CHILL FOLKS.

Remember... attack the arguments... NOT THE POSTERS!

	01-05-2003 21:51									#50
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Thanks Ming...

Fez: I believe that gas prices would be higher if we did away with subsidies. This is a fact. Prove it wrong. I'll wait for your answer.

	01-05-2003 21:58									#51
	Put an end to popups!

Sava - you might want to net the "subsidies" out from the taxes generated from oil sales - the taxes are significantly higher.


Gasoline in the EU should be about 10% higher than in the US because of transportation costs. The US gets most of its petro from closer sources.

Retail gas prices in California are higher than in the rest of the US partially because of additional refining costs to reduce pollution emitting. (smog results out today in the press)

Exxon's profit amounted to about $0.075 on every dollar of sales. Decent, but not that great of a business. $0.06 of the profit was from getting it out of the ground - the most volitile side of the business. Refining and retailing - making oil into gas and selling it at the pump generated about $0.015. Big whoopie!

I would prefer that the US jack it's gas taxes up to the moon, but it is considered a regressive tax - meaning that it would impact the poor more than the rich, so we don't do it.

	01-05-2003 22:08									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The only point I made is that gas prices would be higher if we did away with subsidies. Tell me how this is wrong?

No, I actually think you are right.

	01-05-2003 22:14									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The only point I made is that gas prices would be higher if we did away with subsidies. Tell me how this is wrong?

Sava, You are actually correct (Assuming that corporate profits stay at the same level).

Assumtions (feel free to provide evidence to the contrary):

1.)1 tank of gas per vehicle every 2 weeks.
2.)Average fuel tank size of 14 gallons.
3.)140,000,000 vehicles

This would equate to
14 X 26 X 140,000,000 gallons of gas per year or

50,960,000,000 gallons of gas

subsidies = $11.9 billion/year

11,900,000,000/50,960,000,000 = $.2335

Gas prices would be 23.35 cents per gallon higher.

	01-05-2003 22:20									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Thanks Ming... Fez: I believe that gas prices would be higher if we did away with subsidies. This is a fact. Prove it wrong. I'll wait for your answer.

You are correct. Was I arguing that?

	01-05-2003 22:21									#55
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XOM, directly and indirectly, paid more than $12B in taxes this quarter alone.

The subsidy figures are fine at face value, but only if you don't think about it critically. The govy buys fuel for Air Force One, and the safe housing inspector from the city of Roanoke. That is just a cost of operating a government. Not what should be refered to as a subsidy. The govy buys electricity to keep the lights on, but that isn't a subsidy - now is it?

	01-05-2003 22:35									#56
	Increase Your PM Length

It's so wonderful when we debate facts and don't attack opinions.

	01-05-2003 22:41									#57
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I thought they were one and the same...

quote: It's really a shame that people ignore fact because they don't agree with my beliefs...

	01-05-2003 22:41									#58
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu Why? By reducing the amount of needless consume, we ensure that the devices which are important and won't work in any way without fossil fuels can be used in the future.

The fact that oil is a non-renewable resource is already taken account of in the price. Producers know they will eventually run out of oil to sell, and price accordingly. Gasoline taxes cover other costs such as road construction, congestion, pollution, and in many cases act as a general revenue source for the government.

GP:

Congestion is in a sense self-limiting. Eventually people stop driving on crowded roads, or drive on other routes, at other times, or take other forms of transportation. But if I drive on a crowded highway, I increase the travel time of you and everybody else. Unless I compensate other drivers, or the highway has control of entry (toll highways becoming more popular), then congestion is still an externality. Most recent estimates indicate that the cost of congestion in the US is more than $67 billion per year, approaching the approximately $100 billion per year spent on highway maintenance and construction. http://mobility.tamu.edu/ums/study/short_report.stm

Plato:

Good back of the envelope numbers, but actual US highway fuel consumption was 162 bil gallons in 2000, about three times your estimate. The reasons for the difference are that larger vehicles, such as trucks, have lower fuel efficiency, and many vehicles have higher mileage than you assumed. http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hs00/mf21.htm

edit:
I have no problem at all with getting rid of favorable tax treatment for oil companies.

	01-05-2003 22:46									#59
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Neither do I.

$.073 a gallon "subsidy" eh? That effectively makes the Fed gas tax just over a quarter a gallon.

	01-05-2003 22:49									#60
	Inflate your Upload Space

Thanks Adam.

In that case we would be looking at :

11,900,000,000/162,000,000,000 = $.0735

Making the actual cost per gallon of the "subsidies" at 7.35 cents per gallon.

The back of my envelope is now full!