01-05-2003 22:49									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Why do leftists always try to say making a profit is a bad, evil, underhanded thing? Hello! If companies didn't make profits then we'd crash and burn the way the Soviet Union did and the way China's state owned industries currently are.

In my experience, paraphrased:

"If companies are making huge profits they can surely afford to reduce their prices without losing money. Why then do they charge so much and rip off people for their products?"

Making profits isn't bad, making excessive* profits is what is most disliked.

*I won't try and define excessive, it depends on your point of view.

	01-05-2003 22:59									#62
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When we talk about 'excessive' profits, lets remember to do so in terms of proportion to sales. Oil companies are frequent targets of 'excessive' profits, when their commodity business generates just a little bit of profit relative to their sales.

A few weeks ago, I posted the profits per dollar of sales for a couple of companies, and Microsoft was the only one that really generated a big % number. Most major corporations only generate about 5% profit for each dollar of sales.

	01-05-2003 23:01									#63
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Big Crunch

	01-05-2003 23:22									#64
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Define "excessive"

If you are going to define excessive as "more money than I know how to spend", then pretty much any company that is profitable makes "excessive" profits, immediately rendering any discussion on this point useless.

If, otoh, you're more rational about it and define it as "exceeding x% of total sales" then that's still subjective, but at least we have a basis for argument.

Sure the oil company's make more than I know how to spend. But given that their profit margins are only 7.5% you can't even make that case because, hell, Rockefeller would've done better had he just closed up Standard Oil and invested all that money in the DJIA.

	01-05-2003 23:23									#65
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I'll say corporate profits aren't excessive when there aren't millions in this country living in poverty.

	01-05-2003 23:24									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch *I won't try and define excessive, it depends on your point of view.

And there in lays the crux.

	01-05-2003 23:27									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I'll say corporate profits aren't excessive when there aren't millions in this country living in poverty.

Well, given that we aren't even speaking the same language, I'm bowing out. See-ya!

	01-05-2003 23:28									#68
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Bye!

	01-05-2003 23:39									#69
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Do the Cubbies turn a profit?

	01-05-2003 23:40									#70
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Yes... not winning a World Series has been very lucrative.

	01-05-2003 23:41									#71
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And I think they sell the Old Style for more than it costs to make that stuff!

	01-05-2003 23:44									#72
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It's terrible beer.

	02-05-2003 00:01									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin And there in lays the crux.

Only if you dismiss the issue. If you discuss what people conceive of as excessive you might understand where people are coming from, and whether they are loony lefties or logical lefties.

They may give you an example of excessive profit that you agree with. DO you consider a cartel to be a form of profiteering? How about other price fixing tactics? What do you think of hidden charges? Think of some more yourself as an exercise.

	02-05-2003 00:06									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Only if you dismiss the issue. If you discuss what people conceive of as excessive you might understand where people are coming from, and whether they are loony lefties or logical lefties. They may give you an example of excessive profit that you agree with. DO you consider a cartel to be a form of profiteering? How about other price fixing tactics? What do you think of hidden charges? Think of some more yourself as an exercise.

Sure, granted. But this is SAva we are talking about. He already showed his cluelessness on the tax/subsidy issue. And for sure, he hasn't thought to the extent of realizing that this business is cyclical, and thus there will be times of high profits and low. And so, he has to look at more than a quarter.

	02-05-2003 00:09									#75
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Sure GP, so I must be wrong that the subsidies are lowering prices.

The study I quoted was from 1981 to 1995. The Exxon/Mobil situation just caught my eye since it is related to the subsidies issue. But go ahead, continue your baseless ad hominem attacks. I'll just sit back and laugh at your idiocy.

	02-05-2003 00:10									#76
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quote: But go ahead, continue your baseless ad hominem attacks. I'll just sit back and laugh at your idiocy.

Another hypocritical sentence by Sava.

You go ahead and accuse him of attacking you personally, but then you personally attack him in your next sentence.

	02-05-2003 00:11									#77
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I never profess to be better than anyone.

	02-05-2003 00:12									#78
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I'm not defending Sava, I think his point in this thread about oil profits is a red herring. The real issues of profiteering still exists though, so I thought I would raise some relevant points about comments made.

	02-05-2003 00:13									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Sure GP, so I must be wrong that the subsidies are lowering prices. The study I quoted was from 1981 to 1995. The Exxon/Mobil situation just caught my eye since it is related to the subsidies issue. But go ahead, continue your baseless ad hominem attacks. I'll just sit back and laugh at your idiocy.

My ad hominem against you is not baseless. You really do have the faults that I talk about. Now, one might say that it is dirty pool to bring it up. But it's not baseless.

	02-05-2003 00:13									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I'm not defending Sava, I think his point in this thread about oil profits is a red herring.

Finally someone gets it.

	02-05-2003 00:15									#81
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Personally, I think the governments of both Canada and the US should jack up gasoline taxes, but only with the provision that every last cent be used for improving public transportation. I'm not privy to what goes on in the US, but here in Canada, IIRC, gas taxes just go into the general revenue account, ostensibly for public transit, but not necessarily used for such.

You could even have a system whereby people in rural areas received a rebate since public transit would be unlikely to be of any use to them.

	02-05-2003 00:16									#82
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quote: Originally posted by GP My ad hominem against you is not baseless. You really do have the faults that I talk about. Now, one might say that it is dirty pool to bring it up. But it's not baseless.

It is baseless because instead of responding to my assertions, you attack me. I actually feel sorry for you. You don't have any relevant points, so you resort to attacks. I can understand my own situation. I never have any relevant points. But I mistakenly hold you to a higher standard then myself. Anyways, please don't post anymore unless it's on topic. As Ming says:

Discuss the topic, not the people.

	02-05-2003 00:17									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Actually Fez, the US government has a very anti-capitalistic practice. Gasoline would be about what Europe pays but the US government gives billions in subsidies to the oil companies.

This is where you were wrong. The subsidy calculates out to 7.3 cents a gallon. But the price difference is about $3.

3 > .073

CAPICHE???

BTW, everybody buttslammed you for saying that.

	02-05-2003 00:18									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I'm not defending Sava, I think his point in this thread about oil profits is a red herring. The real issues of profiteering still exists though, so I thought I would raise some relevant points about comments made.

They may or may not exist. So far no evidence for collusion has been presented. All we got was the earnings announcement angst.

	02-05-2003 00:19									#85
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Actually, they showed I was wrong without calling me "clueless, numbnuts, dumbsh1t" or anyother insult you've directed at me.

	02-05-2003 00:20									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Sava It is baseless because instead of responding to my assertions, you attack me. I actually feel sorry for you. You don't have any relevant points, so you resort to attacks. I can understand my own situation. I never have any relevant points. But I mistakenly hold you to a higher standard then myself. Anyways, please don't post anymore unless it's on topic. As Ming says: Discuss the topic, not the people.

1. It is fun to beat on you.

2. I think "unfair" or "irrelevant" would be more appropriate than "baseless". Baseless implies the insults are not true.

	02-05-2003 00:21									#87
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quote: Originally posted by GP They may or may not exist. So far no evidence for collusion has been presented. All we got was the earnings announcement angst.

What do you call OPEC then?

	02-05-2003 00:21									#88
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quote: baseless implies the insults aren't true

They aren't if I'm purposely being stupid.

	02-05-2003 00:22									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Actually, they showed I was wrong without calling me "clueless, numbnuts, dumbsh1t" or anyother insult you've directed at me.

yeah. I just add those so you can enjoy the correction.

	02-05-2003 00:22									#90
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I'm not privy to what goes on in the US

Mainly, it goes toward road construction/repair. Some is supposed to go to mass transit, but in actual fact, mass transit gets many fewer dollars.

One thing to note is that, like Canada, much of the US can't be served very well by mass transit. So it's not without reason that this money doesn't go to mass transit.