07-05-2003 18:59									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Illyrien Nazies arent inherently evil people, they really believed that they did the right thing.

Except for clueless rebels who just love to do the "wrong" thing in order to get attention, every political doctrine is trying to do the "good" thing. Hitler really believed he'd tremendously help the humanity by curing it of the ancient Jewish disease. Colonizing countries really believed they would bring civilization and happiness to the countries they colonized.

	07-05-2003 19:09									#32
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That's why I have to wonder: Is someone who commits atrocities out of a twisted ideology (Killing Jews = a good thing) somehow more evil and repugnant than someone who kills out of opportunism? I have a hard time accepting that.

	07-05-2003 19:14									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That's why I have to wonder: Is someone who commits atrocities out of a twisted ideology (Killing Jews = a good thing) somehow more evil and repugnant than someone who kills out of opportunism? I have a hard time accepting that.

To me, yes.
That's why Pol Pot is the worst of the worst in my book. His delirium killed -in a mere 4 years- one quarter of his population, the very population he wanted to bring good to :vomit:

	07-05-2003 19:16									#34
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Actually maybe Kissinger sympathisers should be treated as Nazi symapthizers.

Brits should just be laughed at.

	07-05-2003 19:17									#35
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Actually maybe Kissinger sympathisers should be treated as Nazi symapthizers. Brits should just be laughed at.

thanks for the insight

	07-05-2003 19:17									#36
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If there was no rapid industrialization under Stalin's rule, more probably nazi would won and completely exterminated Russia as country and Slavs as people.

I suspect that Russia would have been a lot more industrialized had they kept the provisional government and not gone for another revolution, but that's just me.

Nazism isnt more inhuman or evil then Socialism, they just have slightly different goals. The root of both Socialism and Nazism is the belief in "The Strong Man" or "The Enlightened State" eg. the belief that all power should be given to someone wise who will use this power for the cause of good.

Will you people please use "Socialism" consistently? Either Sweden is Socialist or the USSR is Socialist, but both of them are not Socialist.

	07-05-2003 19:18									#37
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no problem

	07-05-2003 19:20									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor To me, yes. That's why Pol Pot is the worst of the worst in my book. His delirium killed -in a mere 4 years- one quarter of his population, the very population he wanted to bring good to :vomit:

I'm not talking about which has a worse effect on the victims, but which is more evil in intent. IMO, Stalin was just as evil as Hitler, if not moreso, because he didn't kill people because he was trying to create a better world and whatnot, but rather because he felt killing those people allowed him to keep his grip on power. Selfish motivations for horrific acts are pretty evil.

There is the old question, if you could go back in time and find Hitler when he was a young man, before he'd done anything, and murder him, would you do it? I don't think those who answer yes are any more evil than someone who would murder young Hitler to steal his wallet.

	07-05-2003 19:33									#39
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Oh the Green Nazi party. never figured those guys out.

	07-05-2003 19:48									#40
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yes and no... if it's someone pointing out the differences between the two, then no. If it's someone praising the murderous dictator... YES...

and IMO, equating modern liberals or socialists with Stalin is an equally stupid move

	07-05-2003 19:59									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Most Stalin's sympathizers are people who were indoctrinated when Stalin was alive, or people who feel things were better under the rule of Stalin than later. I certainly don't agree with them, and I even don't understand such a sympathy can exist, but these motivations look quite harmless.

I've heard that about 50% of Russians believe that Stalin did more good than harm. I assume that many of those never knew life first hand under Stalin.

	07-05-2003 20:02									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Most Stalin's sympathizers are people who were indoctrinated when Stalin was alive, or people who feel things were better under the rule of Stalin than later. I certainly don't agree with them, and I even don't understand such a sympathy can exist, but these motivations look quite harmless.

I've heard that about 50% of Russians believe that Stalin did more good than harm. I assume that many of those never knew life first hand under Stalin. Probably a lot of them see that things are very bad and look back to that time as a golden age of sorts.

	07-05-2003 20:11									#43
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You have a DP there, kidicious.

	07-05-2003 20:12									#44
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One is longer

	07-05-2003 20:22									#45
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Stalin's sympathesiers are quite aware of his attrocities and think that his reasoning was still better than that of the current leadership.

That is perhaps debatable but not dangerous.

Nazi sympathesiers are usually racist and violent.

Besides, what treatment are you refering to? There are nazi parties still out there...

	07-05-2003 20:29									#46
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Pol Pot is better qualifyed as a mad man. A mass murderer.
But Communism and Nazism are very, very different.
Stalinists, in general (I know a few ) do not believe in what he did. He was a pain in the ass (I used to be Trotskyist in my youth)... But like Hitler???

	07-05-2003 20:31									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I don't think so, because Stalin's sympathies are ot motivated the same way as nazi sympathies. Most Stalin's sympathizers are people who were indoctrinated when Stalin was alive, or people who feel things were better under the rule of Stalin than later. I certainly don't agree with them, and I even don't understand such a sympathy can exist, but these motivations look quite harmless. Nazi sympatists, on the other hand, advocate racial/religious/sexual/whatever hatred. They hate their fellow humans, which is a destructive behaviour, and that's why they went to nazism in the first place. OR, they can be clueless rebeles who just want to break the ultimate taboo. Both sympathies are very different things.

So essentially, Stalin sympathizers aren't as bad as Nazi sympathizers because the Nazi wannabes are True Believers, while Stalin wannabes are Useful Idiots?

	07-05-2003 20:36									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Alvaro Stalin's sympathesiers are quite aware of his attrocities and think that his reasoning was still better than that of the current leadership. That is perhaps debatable but not dangerous.

How on earth is that not dangerous?

	07-05-2003 20:36									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Aro Stalinists, in general (I know a few ) do not believe in what he did. He was a pain in the ass

So, what is made of a stalinist if he does not believe in what he did ? Just a tag allowing to get a pay slip and access to the stores reserved to the nomenklatura ?

	07-05-2003 20:38									#50
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Sinapus :
You can say so. But don't forget there isn't anything to "believe" in stalinism, and that's a big difference

	07-05-2003 20:45									#51
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My Stalinists (those ones I know... ) simply deny the whole thing. It's a lie of the Imperialists, they say.

Btw, every time I see masses saluting hysterically any kind of leader I feel fear. When I see people covering and forgiving the crimes of their leader, I feel fear.

Fundamentalists, Nazis, Stalinists, Maoists... Oh, almost forget, Bushists...
I feel fear.

	07-05-2003 20:59									#52
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quote: Fundamentalists, Nazis, Stalinists, Maoists...

[Arrian's internal monologue]Wait for it. You know it's coming.[/Arrian's internal monologue]

quote: Oh, almost forget, Bushists...

Ah, there it is!





-Arrian

	07-05-2003 21:30									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Aro My Stalinists (those ones I know... ) simply deny the whole thing. It's a lie of the Imperialists, they say.

Imperialists? Then why do people for example from Poland and the former Soviet countries complain about his crimes? Stalin and Hitler both did ethnic cleansing, but Stalin managed to hide his crimes with propaganda (he even rewrote history books). Difference between Gulags and Nazi concentration camps was that the Nazis were more efficient in killing, but the communists had more time. Sure Stalin did some great things like built Soviet union to its glory, but so did Hitler (autobahns, anyone?)

	07-05-2003 21:32									#54
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Bushist's don't really exist. They belong to a group known as Neo-Cons. They usually partake in French bashing while trying to make people forget about the chemical weapons contributions the US made to Iraq.

	07-05-2003 23:32									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Illyrien Nazism isnt more inhuman or evil then Socialism, they just have slightly different goals.

Slightly different goals?
You are seriously sick mister. You’re saying that ideology that says that some «inferior» nationalities/races should be completely exterminated is as bad as ideology that says that people of all nationalities have equal rights and equal opportunities? For first ideology it’s absolutely natural and OK to burn children of “inferior” nationalities alive, while it is never, not even a close OK for second ideology.

quote: The root of both Socialism and Nazism is the belief in "The Strong Man" or "The Enlightened State" eg. the belief that all power should be given to someone wise who will use this power for the cause of good.

I think you mess the Socialism and nazism with dictatorship. It’s absolutely different things. First two are ideologies, the last one is form of government.

quote: Nazies arent inherently evil people, they really believed that they did the right thing.

Blah...blah...blah...neo-nazi crap...blah...blah..blah. IOW, they weren't bad people they just believed that burning people alive is the right thing to do.

It doesn’t change the fact that their GOAL/THEIR IDEOLOGY WAS ABSOLUTELY INHUMAN. Never heard about Nuremberg process?

	07-05-2003 23:37									#56
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This thread is full of neo-nazi and revisionist’s bullsh!t. Unfortunately it's deep night here and I have to sleep.

Arrian, LOL

Last edited by Serb on 07-05-2003 at 23:46

	08-05-2003 00:44									#57
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger So agreeing with accusing your neighbours of imaginery crimes so that they are imprisoned /murdered is the right way to go

Stalinists don't believe the crimes were imaginary. In many cases, they're right.

	08-05-2003 00:47									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Aro Pol Pot is better qualifyed as a mad man. A mass murderer. But Communism and Nazism are very, very different. Stalinists, in general (I know a few ) do not believe in what he did. He was a pain in the ass (I used to be Trotskyist in my youth)... But like Hitler???

their philosophies are different but the end result is the same. Lots of innocient people end up dead. Both the extreme left and right are totalitarian and crush the rights of the people.

	08-05-2003 00:55									#59
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We have Serb here but he really isn't an apologist for Stalin so much as a person who likes saying that Hitler was worse. That's debatable (purposefully engineering a famine in the Ukraine for no reason puts him pretty high up there) but it is a somewhat reasonable position to stake out.

What I really want to know is where Propaganda, the real Stalin apologist is?

	08-05-2003 00:59									#60
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DD: Oh, Stalin had a reason for engineering a mass famine amoung the farmers. Namely, the farmers weren't supporting his regime so he starved them to death.