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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:27
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What?! No mention of the horrendous refereeing? Even your man Jonno was ready to spit the dummy! |
I didn’t think it would be gracious to pick on Dickinson – he has enough on his plate from your countrymen. But yes he was poor. I should also note it is not unusual for Jonno to berate, even hassle, referees like that.
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I can't be too hard on him, however, because he was instrumental in creating the opportunity for the try. |
Be hard on him. The try should have been disallowed for that blatant head start Doug took. 
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No way! He was just quick off the mark |
Sorry but it’s quite true. Watch it again - he was at least 2 metres offside as the ball touched Spencer’s boot. Blatant offside. And he knew it as it was clearly a practiced move.
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Perhaps you need to conceed that the ref blew too many ridiculous penalties - therefore stifling the game into a kicking match between Wilkinson and Spencer. |
Far too many to make the game fluent, yes. What can I say – with that many penalties to the bad we should never have won.
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I doubt he saw them |
I’ve not seen him since the end of May. I will give him this – if Sharpe has played well he is prepared to admit his mistakes – he will say so.
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I know Eddie thinks they can because he's seen them and said so. Pity more of us don't get free trips to the 6 Nations. |
Very true.
Maybe a slight problem in terminology. Running rugby to me isn’t S12 backs obsessed continuity stuff. It’s more spinning in wide and having a burl through the backs when appropriate. It isn’t always appropriate. Yes the backs were disconnected against both yourselves and the ABs but the backs played a little; nice stuff even so – it certainly wasn’t just up your jumper rugby.
If however you want to see England throw it wide at the earliest opportunity you are unlikely to see it. They will keep it tight initially and try to draw in your defenders then whip it out when the suction has worked. If, by some miracle, they open up a big lead then they might get expansive. If they do, and get it right, it will end the debate. Eddie if I recall saw them in Dublin so yes he will have seen what they can achieve when it works.
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Fingers crossed though. |
Here too – but with opposite intent. 
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As I said - in what other game? |
Can’t think of any.
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Yes, I know. I've long since learned to remind you that, in most points you make, the opposite is also usually the case. |
I find such things are very subjective depending on which side of the equator one stands.
This being an especially intriguing case as the Williams-Jack combination didn’t float my boat at all. In the clash of locks even the ‘thug’ came from a blindside option for all of us I’m sure?
Ah yes the Dark Science quote – it deserves the pre-eminence you give it all right.
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he's in danger of losing the main calling job because David Leckie - the ex-Packer 9 Network supremo now in charge at 7 - thinks he's an "egg-head". |
I can see why this gentlemen does not endear himself to you!
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I've never seen so many re-sets of scrums and penalties that leave both packs bewildered. Yet another IRB dictum, obviously. |
Which is strange in itself because by the very nature of it this slows games down badly in a year where rugby wants to take centre stage to the great unconverted masses and draw them in.
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Tell him from me to card himself for persistent silliness. |
He’s actually a nice and very bright guy. But I’ll card him anyway. Never did like refs.
What I might have successfully hid from you all this time is that, unlike myself, the majority of English supporters really dislike Eddie.
He is seen as a self important little man – ungracious both in victory and defeat. They find it weird when, like today, he talks of ‘encouraging’ McHugh to be strict in certain areas – as if he has some direct influence over that rather than the fact he is actually talking about the pre-match talk with the ref at which McHugh will tell him what will be policed.
It creates a false impression of the cunning little hooker – and my friends view is not unusual even from an easy going type like him.
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Where are the younger refs? |
There’s a few. Jutge is younger I think. Who is that Kiwi – Walsh?
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This was, of course, pointed out to Havak a page or so back - on the basis that he claims it a uniquely SH habit - but he seemed to miss the mention |
I honestly did miss it!
But sheesh – show me a test side that doesn’t time waste in such situations? As oft mentioned the Wallabies take it in turns to fall over every time the opposition win set piece for starters.
Look at it this way. The SH has led us to where we are now. We have had to copy you to compete. To complain about that is, well, hypocritical??
You picked six minutes out the air by the way – it was more like eight by my reckoning.
But MikeH can fight the rest of it himself – I couldn’t possibly take part in gloating.
If it makes the SH contingent feel better about it how about Rugby – only England cheat!
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:27
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Originally posted by Havak
Maybe a slight problem in terminology. Running rugby to me isn’t S12 backs obsessed continuity stuff. It’s more spinning in wide and having a burl through the backs when appropriate. |
There was no problem with terminology. I understand that England God would strike down whomever threw it wide at the first opportunity.
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I find such things are very subjective depending on which side of the equator one stands. |
Yes, and I wonder which way one would side if one stood on the equator. Presumably one wouldn't have a clue on the basis that one's brain had been fried by the sun. I cite Queenslanders as perfect examples and they're not even on the equator which speaks volumes for them.
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Which is strange in itself because by the very nature of it this slows games down badly in a year where rugby wants to take centre stage to the great unconverted masses and draw them in. |
It's odd how the international administrators of the two most interesting games - rugby and cricket - are utterly incompetent. There must be some sort of Law responsible for it.
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He’s actually a nice and very bright guy. |
Then he doesn't belong reffing.
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What I might have successfully hid from you all this time is that, unlike myself, the majority of English supporters really dislike Eddie. |
Fear not, Clive Woodward is rapidly being recognised down here as a goose. See below.
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He is seen as a self important little man – ungracious both in victory and defeat. They find it weird when, like today, he talks of ‘encouraging’ McHugh to be strict in certain areas – as if he has some direct influence over that rather than the fact he is actually talking about the pre-match talk with the ref at which McHugh will tell him what will be policed. |
Woodward started banging on the other day - with obvious reference to Eddie - about coaches using the media to influence refs. This from the man who set up a Light & Sound show for the media with the sole purpose of telling a ref to watch out for dummy runners. I say no more.
Well, I will. Woodward always gives me the impression that he constantly lives in fear of losing his job. I think I've mentioned it before. His body language screams it.
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There’s a few. Jutge is younger I think. Who is that Kiwi – Walsh? |
Is it Walsh? Anyway, yes he's young. Not bad either. So there are a few. But not enough, particularly when the senior ones consistently show themselves to be incompetent.
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I honestly did miss it! |
Fair enough, I ... miss ... some of your more astute observations, too.
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But sheesh – show me a test side that doesn’t time waste in such situations? As oft mentioned the Wallabies take it in turns to fall over every time the opposition win set piece for starters.
Look at it this way. The SH has led us to where we are now. We have had to copy you to compete. To complain about that is, well, hypocritical?? |
Mmmm. Okay. You're happy to indulge in it but reserve the right to complain when you think others do it. Goodoh.
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You picked six minutes out the air by the way – it was more like eight by my reckoning. |
You, of course, have daylight savings at the moment.
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But MikeH can fight the rest of it himself – I couldn’t possibly take part in gloating. |
Particularly not if Wilkinson had had a hand broken when he was blatantly wrapping his hands around the ball in a ruck.
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If it makes the SH contingent feel better about it how about Rugby – only England cheat!
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Sorry, we prefer to avoid ugly reality in our thread titles.
Last edited by finbar on 19-06-2003 at 07:56
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:27
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We don't have the players for an expansive attacking game when playing against The All Blacks and Australia, they are too good. We can't take too many risks because we know they'll punish us |
We are more than good enough to play that type of game against both of them. That doesn’t mean we have to. Great teams play to their strengths. England’s forwards are their strength.
I suggest like me you don’t worry too much what SH fans say about it. With the exception of the knowledgable gentlemen who post on these threads most SH fans will never give England an inch however well they perform. Who cares, that is very much their problem.
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I understand that England God would strike down whomever threw it wide at the first opportunity. |
Now then Finbar don’t go conforming to the stereotype I just excluded you from.
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I cite Queenslanders as perfect examples and they're not even on the equator which speaks volumes for them. |
Another Finbar classic.
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It's odd how the international administrators of the two most interesting games - rugby and cricket - are utterly incompetent. |
You know my viewpoint – here at least these sports have a history of social elitism and being run by the ‘old boys network’. It makes incompetence fairly inevitable.
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Then he doesn't belong reffing. |
He does very little now. Young family. Yes, doubly a Dill.
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Fear not, Clive Woodward is rapidly being recognised down here as a goose. See below. |
I’m at my best when not being subtle I think.
I’ll not launch a vigorous defence of Woodward. I recognise what he has done for England, particularly in the back room but I’m not blind to the fact he can be a twerp.
He is guilty of exactly what you accuse him of. That press conference, though I defended it at the time from sheer bloody awkwardness was a bit daft. England of course now try to use dummy runners. They are nowhere near as good as the tri nations yet but it will come. In addition Clive is a very emotional character and he has made some real ill advised quotes – there was one after a game about tossing hand grenades and of course the classic 97-99 “I’ve always said judge me on the world cup”. Good job for Clive that the RFU didn’t then?
None of this of course alters the fact he was right about Eddie. I often wish Eddie would restrict himself to the usual banal niceties before games instead of the silly mind games with opposing coaches and the officials.
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Well, I will. Woodward always gives me the impression that he constantly lives in fear of losing his job. I think I've mentioned it before. His body language screams it. |
And you are right. He is an England coach, therefore he is always in danger of this. Seven months at the top of the rankings and a historic win over the Kiwis will count for nothing if he loses to you. Quick to praise, lightning fast to criticise (and scapegoat) remember?
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not enough, particularly when the senior ones consistently show themselves to be incompetent. |
But it’s a problem as most younger men want to play the game. Walsh took up reffing because of a serious leg injury IIRC.
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Fair enough, I ... miss ... some of your more astute observations, too. |
No I genuinely missed it. It’s partly the way I take part here – dropping in irregularly. I do miss large chunks of posts this way – even skimming back. So when you don’t get a response from me to a specific point it’s not ignorance I can assure you. Just say “oi – look back at THIS”.
As if I would be rude to you. 
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You're happy to indulge in it but reserve the right to complain when you think others do it. Goodoh. |
Am I a hypocrite. Yup.
The thing is I seem to have admitted England pushed the envelope Saturday. When I complain about other sides its mainly because they and their fans go into denial. Just look at Caligastia. Howlett was blatantly well offside – only a blind man couldn’t see that. And then there’s the Kiwis polluting the BBC website with ‘England had hands in the ruck, didn’t roll away, laid on the ball’ etc. But strangely they missed their own side doing the exact same thing?
So on balance I’d rather be a hypocrite than blinkered.
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You, of course, have daylight savings at the moment. |
Whilst your charge of professional time wasting was accurate I felt your exageration of the time involved a little unfair.
I’ll be all over it like a rash when we get the traditional Wallaby falling over on Saturday by the way.
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Particularly not if Wilkinson had had a hand broken when he was blatantly wrapping his hands around the ball in a ruck. |
Naughty boy Johnny. Of course no SH fly half would dream of so doing.
Of course the serious side is that if they had deliberately broken his hand they should have been banned for life and I hope our boys would have cleaned the offending players clock for him. Accidental is one thing. Ali Williams accidental is quite another.
And talking of assault what exactly has Smithy been up to then?
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Sorry, we prefer to avoid ugly reality in our thread titles. |
Which is why I presented an ironic option of course.
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It's just England's national lack of self esteem manifesting itself. Havak understands this and is seeking treatment at his local. |
Seasoned campaigner that I am I still rise to the bait now and then.
Talking of bait – why does our media keep
giving this Dill a platform?
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:27
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Originally posted by Havak
We are more than good enough to play that type of game against both of them. That doesn’t mean we have to. Great teams play to their strengths. England’s forwards are their strength. |
Now we've got them boosting each other's morale.
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Now then Finbar don’t go conforming to the stereotype I just excluded you from. |
I'm sure, one day many eons from now, when they're still trying to piece together the chain of evolution, there will be a little dotted line leading off at a tangent. The little dotted line will suddenly stop and there will be an indication that the line is extinct. Beside the little dotted line will be written "England rugby player who thought the difference between rugby and soccer was that, in rugby, you picked up the ball and ran with it".
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He does very little now. Young family. Yes, doubly a Dill. |
Temporary insanity, presumably.
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No I genuinely missed it. |
Oh! That's better then. Bearing in mind that I don't genuinely miss yours.
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As if I would be rude to you. |
Pourquoi pas?
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The thing is I seem to have admitted England pushed the envelope Saturday. When I complain about other sides its mainly because they and their fans go into denial. Just look at Caligastia. Howlett was blatantly well offside – only a blind man couldn’t see that. And then there’s the Kiwis polluting the BBC website with ‘England had hands in the ruck, didn’t roll away, laid on the ball’ etc. But strangely they missed their own side doing the exact same thing? |
I have to tell you, England far outstripped the ABs in that department.
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So on balance I’d rather be a hypocrite than blinkered. |
Or, in this case, deluded.
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Naughty boy Johnny. Of course no SH fly half would dream of so doing. |
They certainly wouldn't expose themselves to the possibility of broken hands.
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Of course the serious side is that if they had deliberately broken his hand they should have been banned for life and I hope our boys would have cleaned the offending players clock for him. |
It wouldn't've had to be deliberate. The ball was there, he had his hands where they shouldn't have been, the ABs were entitled to ruck for it. He was very, very silly. And very lucky they were kind to him.
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And talking of assault what exactly has Smithy been up to then? |
It hasn't all been made public yet, but he got into a skirmish outside a nightclub. Don't know whether he was p*ssed or not. Out of character for him, I have to say.
He was saying pretty much the opposite when I saw him on the local rugby show a month or so ago. He gives them what they want and they lap it up.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:27
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Now we've got them boosting each other's morale. |
Not really. I just didn’t like him using the expression ‘too good’ when comparing the ABs and Wallabies to us.
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"England rugby player who thought the difference between rugby and soccer was that, in rugby, you picked up the ball and ran with it". |
So the sport itself is doomed then? A small comfort can be taken that there will be parallel and earlier terminating lines for one or two SH species of player?
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Temporary insanity, presumably. |
I assume so. Funnily enough as a couple they always berated other couples who talked endless ‘baby’. The irony is not lost on him that he now does a lot of the same.
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Oh! That's better then. Bearing in mind that I don't genuinely miss yours. |
Now that I did rather suspect.
I’m English.
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I have to tell you, England far outstripped the ABs in that department. |
Let me keep it logical. Does the fact that we outdid them in one game mean that the ABs do not do all those things in their play? Does it also mean they are not guilty of frequent offside, don’t use dummy runners and never cynically time waste?
They do like to portray this myth of Kiwi rugby being ‘pure’ and ‘fair’ but it is as cynical as hell like every other major nation – and I can understand why they get hugely upset when a side out does them at it.
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Or, in this case, deluded. |
Though of course domestically I see far more Kiwis and Aussies than is the case for yourself and Caligastia in your domestic tournaments. I know what I see – and I’m not the slightest delusional about the SH sides.
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He was very, very silly. And very lucky they were kind to him. |
I’m sure he was silly. But to argue SH lads wouldn’t do it?
And as for magnanimous AB rucking (or lack thereof) – hmm? They simply missed a chance I suspect.
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Out of character for him, I have to say. |
Reported here as someone having a go at his girlfriend. I understand Jeremy Paul and my mate Justin were there too?
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He gives them what they want and they lap it up. |
As we have remarked before it is so frustrating that they give him this free publicity. I keep expecting him to work “visit Campo’s at the Rocks” into every rant.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:27
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You can relax. They are never going to play expansive form the word go when the Wallaby pack is very much there for the taking from what they have shown the last two weekends.
Scrumming will test them - the loose head seems ill at ease a lot of the time and Noriega has been constantly pulled up in the last two games for his binding - he can't seem to get his head straight on it.
It's best to ignore Campo and cite only the more rational Aussie baiting from the likes of Jones. You'll not draw Finbar into defending David gob-s**** Campese.
Interestingly expanding on the discussion Finbar and I had about the relative qualities of our coaches I found an interesting interview Woodward gave to the English premiership website yesterday in which he had this to say:
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Our mindset is that this is the most important game, you have to go game by game. We are tremendously focused on the game, we had a tremendous game against the All Blacks, it will be a big shame if we don't front up on Saturday night. I think this Australian team will still be the team to beat in the World Cup; England have never won down here. In the World Cup they are playing at home, they have
won the World Cup twice, they know how to win the championship, so it is a massive game for us. We have a good team and we are really looking forward to the game. If we can get a win on Saturday night, that will be a massive boost for everything that we are trying to
do in October. |
It shows the difference in approach. Sure he is aiming for underdog status - that is the way this build up game is played. But note, unlike Eddie, there are no little barbs in there at the opposition. Poor Eddie just can't help himself on that front
And to truly make Finbars day he also had this to say about a certain lock:
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he is an inspirational person to work with - he keeps pushing the barriers back. He has had a long season, he has got one more game to go on Saturday night, he takes it all in his stride and never moans, he
doesn't like long meetings, he doesn't like too much analysis, he just likes to get on with it. He is a brilliant leader and he is still getting better, and I really think that come the World Cup time, he is going to be one incredibly focused young man and behind him an incredibly focused team. But he is the talisman - no doubt about that. A lot of people talk about if England lost Wilkinson. It would be a massive blow if we lost Johnson. He is a very, very important person, great to work with but he is the heartbeat of the
team. |
Last edited by Havak on 19-06-2003 at 17:52
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Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:27
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeH
Yes, I'm English but I like Europe. |
I am glad to know the pro-europeans are not an extinct species in England (though it seems it is still hunted at extensively in this country). Be careful, Havak owns a loaded elephant gun.
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Haven't read all this thread, didn't realise France were getting a slating as well. |
The erratic results of the French team alone expose me to many opportunity shots. 
But we will show them...
...one day. 
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I thought it was Australia everyone hated.  |
The problem is it is not fun to criticize Australia as Finbar is doing it himself oftenly and better than us.
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Will be a tough game on Saturday. I know the Aussie taunting is designed to get us to loosen up and be more expansive so we are easier to beat but I hope we can get an early lead so that we can play some better rugby and get some tries. Although I don't really care as long as we beat them. |
This is again a Commonwealth internal issue. 
You might be surprised but I am always supporting England against the heretics of the SH. Beware of Finbar as he is able to support England to make you lose. 
About the age of the referees, I think the problem is really important. The french federation is already complaining about the lack of new referees and I expect we will have more and more problems in the future. The problem is the job of the referee is becoming more and more difficult, the higher stakes coming with professionalism, and the huge amounts of money involved, are putting a strong pressure on the referees. Even in the lower divisions, the referees are less and less respected and in the french Top 16 Championship the referees are leaving the field accompanied by vigils because of a few excited individuals I deny the right to be called supporters. But the problem reminds me of the "snake biting its own tail".
- Increased pressure on the referees (from the clubs and the federations) -> Rules putting an emphasis on interpretation and constantly changing -> Increased chances of debatable decisions -> Loss of respect -> Excessive behavior of supporters and officials -> Open criticism of the refereeing body -> Less umpires willing to follow this path -> Referees accumulating a bad reputation with some crowds -> Return to the beginning
Other problems could be invoked like a lack of adequate training, the lack of communication of the refereeing body and so on... I am not surprised the International umpires are rather old, helming an international level game requires a higher skill (this is theory) and thus an experience which can only be accumulated with time. But IMO it will become increasingly difficult to renew the referees. 
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
So the sport itself is doomed then? A small comfort can be taken that there will be parallel and earlier terminating lines for one or two SH species of player? |
All I can say is Thank God the little dotted line with A. Healey's name beside it sputtered out.
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I assume so. Funnily enough as a couple they always berated other couples who talked endless ‘baby’. The irony is not lost on him that he now does a lot of the same. |
Amazing how often that happens. I think SARS is some sort of variation on the same virus. My ex-sister in law - I say ex-, thankfully - once told me that one's life wasn't complete until one had children. Stupid cloth-eared bint.
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Let me keep it logical. Does the fact that we outdid them in one game mean that the ABs do not do all those things in their play? Does it also mean they are not guilty of frequent offside, don’t use dummy runners and never cynically time waste? |
Oh, I thought we were talking about last Saturday's game. Anyway, of course the ABs do it. Everyone has done it. But England's effort last weekend was, um, pretty spectacular, I thought.
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I’m sure he was silly. But to argue SH lads wouldn’t do it? |
I've never seen anyone wrap both hands around the ball like that with their hands and arms so exposed. Usually it's a hand or an arm trying to hoik the ball. It was an amazing image captured by the camera.
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And as for magnanimous AB rucking (or lack thereof) – hmm? They simply missed a chance I suspect. |
Lucky that madman Troy Flavell wasn't on the spot. He'd've amputated both Wilkinson's arms.
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Reported here as someone having a go at his girlfriend. I understand Jeremy Paul and my mate Justin were there too? |
Yes, I heard something about the girlfriend. If the others were there, they can't have done anything. George is the only one in trouble. I have to say, if I had to offend a bloke by having a go at his girlfriend, it wouldn't be George Smith.
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I keep expecting him to work “visit Campo’s at the Rocks” into every rant. |
I think that's pretty much what it's about these days. Keeping his profile going. Pity.
Hey Cal - Time to start a new thread!
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18-06-2003 18:40
Now I just have to cut and paste and I'm away!
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