14-05-2003 03:55									#1
	Ideas for the Start Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ok, our first turn will be played in a couple of days, so I need some ideas. First tech, starting location, build queues, general strategy, etc.

I think the very first tech should be Centauri Ecology, as formers are needed ASAP IMHO, although what do others think?

Also, should we build our base exactly where the pod starts, or look for a better place? Max number of turns to look if we want to? I would say build it there unless one or two moves can get abundant resources that are good (like mineral on rock, nutrients or energy on ridge high up)

First thing to build? I am thinking scout patrol to explore, one to defend, former as soon as we get the tech, and then another CP?

First SP? I think the Human Genome is good, but I think the Weather Paridigm is a must, for the help in former time, and the little terraforming trick I learned from Archaic, of having Boreholes and Consensers, in pattern, that means condensers get crawled for nuts, and boreholes give us loads of energy and minerals.

Just a few ideas. Please post any comments you want.

	14-05-2003 04:15									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

first tech: Centauri ecology for sure

as for build Q it's always hard to say. scout maybe until ecology, then former, CP, former in the HQ. then in all other bases i'd go former former CP scout. fast growth, but we're vulnerable to the worms.

for SPs i'd go for the WP and HGP once we have a few crawlers out. Indus Auto is a MUST. as for copying archaic's ICS/terraforming, i've found that to work out pretty well, though i've had success with bases 3 tiles apart (usually N, N, NE or W, W SW, not 3x N or something)

now, maniac?

EDIT: BTW drug, you lost your flag

	14-05-2003 04:27									#3
	Tired of ads?

I like it TKG. Screenshot for the terraforming? as for build queues, that's very open to worms Wouldn't maybe former, scout, CP, former be safer, and just as fast growing, just fewer formers? We may need to run for SPs soon, as others will go fast, especially for those two. Also, if we can stop the UoP getting the Virtual World, that would be great. Great SP, and even better to stop UoP. If we get a massive minerals base, i say go for it!

	14-05-2003 04:31									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

i'll get a screenshot soon enough. as for worms, they're slightly less of a worry here than normal as G put native life to "rare" (i think) and i normally play with average.

	14-05-2003 04:36									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Personally I'd only focus on the HGP for our early SP (we're with five humans!). The reason is it's very handy for early expansion, and we need it more than other factions for golden ages under planned (few psych) and the consequential pop booming (also explained in my PM to Corellion). For techs: 1) CentEco 2) Biogenetics (for HGP) 3) to IndAut if nothing special happens on the road.

As for build queues etcetera, I really need to see our starting location for that. Therefore I'd really suggest - for the first turn only, after that it's less a problem - that Drogue opens the turn, takes a screenie, and let us all discuss before actually playing the turn.

	14-05-2003 04:42									#6
	Support Apolyton

That seems a great idea, and I was thinking of doing just that. Should we ever attempt to go for SoTHB? If not, I think Maniac's plan is the best. As for HGP, let's try it, I don't normally, because I prefer Virtual World, but let's go for it and see.

	14-05-2003 05:12									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

ok here's a screenie of my general terraforming. this is 2184, so i'm just getting my first condensors and boreholes in. basically what happened was i popped a pod in 2101 that gave me a unity foil, so seeing that i was on a small island i immediately headed south, for...yeah

as for SPs, whatever it doesn't really matter. VW would be best but i don't care, they're all good.

i'd support free market at the very beginning, just because it give so damn much energy, at that point you don't need psych allocation because it wouldn't do anything. the only problem is you can't grow to size 2 before you get the HGP

	14-05-2003 05:18									#8
	Remove this text

But we want to explore, and having any units out wrecks our bases with drone riots. I'd rather go for GAs, or at least non-rioting first. Maniac? Bookwyrm? What do you think (well, methinks I know what Maniac thinks)

As for terraforming, I trust TKG, who did us proud last time (except for the Akirian/Aurillion Borehole of course ). An idea of condensers and boreholes, though time consuming, gives wonderful results.

Last edited by Drogue on 14-05-2003 at 05:24

	14-05-2003 05:24									#9
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Do you mean what I think about early FM, Drogue? Well my classic strategy is just to stay planned until I can control drones in my bases. I've never understood how people (such as Archaic now in the RftP PBEM) can go FM very early on and be succesful (unless you're the UoP with the Virtual World). All those drone problems, not being able to explore far away, not being able to fight worms well... How do you deal with all those problems, TKG?

	14-05-2003 05:24									#10
	Got spare money?

well, i just don't like running planned at the start anymore. with the CyCon however, we may just need the growth

EDIT in response to maniac:

i just end up having to use a doctor whenever i grow to size 2 while building a colony pod, if not i install a rec commons. after the HGP, you don't have to worry about drones until size 3, and with rapid expansion i use, that doesn't come quick (see that's 2184, and most of my bases are 2's or 1's). i know this way probably isn't very efficient, but you make a lot more money and research sometimes doubles. i usually run wealth until i get knowledge too, so +3 econ +1 industry +2 effic +2 growth -2 support -2 morale -5 police and -3 planet. the morale thing is the biggest penalty i find.

	14-05-2003 05:26									#11
	Tired of ads?

Yes, Maniac, I mean about FM. I agree, we need growth at the start, and we need to be able to explore. I think we should go FM, but later on, when we have reduced nearby fungus, explored much, and grown quite a bit. Maybe in 60 or 70 years after start?

	14-05-2003 05:32									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

BTW, that game was played with FM right from when i got industrial economics. which was pre 2120 i'm sure. as soon as crawlers come out i hit the forests until i have bases making ~10 mins, then get on the SPs. i believe i finished the WP in 215(3?)

	14-05-2003 05:42									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hmm, if you have to use a doctor every time you reach size 2, you lose a large part of your nutrients, minerals and energy. Is that truly a good trade-off for the mere +1 energy you get per base??? (as all bases only have one worker)

	14-05-2003 05:47									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

well its only until the colony pod is completed. once it's done, i get back to size 1 and can install a rec commons. if the base isnt building a CP when it grows, i can just switch or put a doctor in place for a little bit if the retool penalty is too much.

	14-05-2003 05:52									#15
	Tired of ads?

I tend to build as well as grow at the begining. I like to have a base producing either an SP, if I need it quickly, getting itself sorted with facilities, or producing military, if we start close to another faction. We can sometimes take a base, or even wipe a faction, right at the start

EDIT: BOO! ok, i'll stop now

Edit by Drogue: I really would if I were you. It is highly illogical

Last edited by Drogue on 14-05-2003 at 06:15

	14-05-2003 05:59									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

the only time i'll start a war with someone early on is if they have no military and i pop a pod with a battler ogre. science should be focused on building early on, building!

	14-05-2003 06:00									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: I like to have a base producing either an SP

Indeed. Another reason why we need our bases to grow beyond size 1. We need a base early on for SPs, with decent population and thus decent minerals. Which reminds me, before going to IndAut, it might also be a good idea to research Social Psych, to build a rec commons early on in our future SP base.

I'm almost leaving btw, going to regenerate.

EDIT By TKG: hey cool, a bug!

one more problem to report to markos

	14-05-2003 06:07									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

TKG: We have techsteal. One laser rover and we can wipe out a single scout patrol without any difficulty, get aanother tec, maybe another base and maybe wipe our a faction near us, giving us more room to develop. Also we can use it to explore. Could be very useful.

Edit: I disagree, I think we shouldn't do this

Last edited by Drogue on 14-05-2003 at 16:13

	14-05-2003 07:15									#19
	Remove this text

You're on "look first" and start with 3 colony pods and 3 scout patrol units.

If any of you have been in PBEM's I've set up you'll know that your start position is always good for a Headquarters base (and I'm giving nothing away, as I'll advise the other teams similarly if the discussion comes up - and several of them are veterans of my CMN'd games)

G.

	14-05-2003 16:18									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Considering Googlie's post, I vote that we build a base wherever we start. If it's a good location, we might as well start building stuff ASAP.

What do others think?

	14-05-2003 23:43									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: If any of you have been in PBEM's I've set up you'll know that your start position is always good for a Headquarters base

Really? I never noticed. I think that both in FW1 as FW5 I build my capital on another square than I started.

quote: What do others think?

Sure.

	15-05-2003 00:53									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

So to surmise, we go for Centauri Ecology first, build the base where it starts, unless it can see something really good very close to it, and build a former ASAP?

However, what to build first. If we start with 3 scout patrols, I suggest not building another one. Should we start with a CP, and then hope that we grow soon, start with CP and switch to former ASAP, start as stockpile energy and switch to former ASAP, or build a fourth scout patrol?

	15-05-2003 00:56									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It all depends on our surrounding terrain.
If we have a nutrient bonus nearby so the base will grow to size 2 before we reach 30 minerals, we could build a colony pod first. If not, just build an extra scout patrol IMHO.

	15-05-2003 01:03									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Really? Personally, I think go stockpile energy until we get cent. eco., and then formers. It means we get more money and formers quicker, and we don't need another SP really. I thik the tech and former would be far more beneficial personally.

	15-05-2003 01:15									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Go stockpile immediately on the first turn, until we research Centauri Ecology? Assuming we have 2 minerals per year in the beginning, that would be wasting 2 mins per year in exchange for a mere 1 energy credit. How is that beneficial? Now I've thought a bit more about it, this is my newest suggestion:
1) Build our HQ, and put the queue to a scout patrol (which will cost us no support, so no waste here)
2) The next turn that scout patrol will be completed due to the ten free minerals. Switch to CP.
3) Wait for CentEco
4) If the CP production is already in a far stadium when we research CentEco, finish the CP before switching to a former. If the CP isn't yet far in production, switch to a former immediately.

Using this method I think we'll waste the least possible minerals.

Should we poll it after others have made suggestions? I sense we two won't come to an agreement.

	15-05-2003 01:22									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think we will, I quite like that idea, though I am unsure of a few things. Why put it in queue? Don't we jsut chose to build it first?

I was thinking that it means we are ready to build former ASAP, whereas if we're building a CP we would have to wait ages to get formers. I was simply suggesting the way to get the former the quickest.

I agree with that method, although is the SP needed? Should we just for a CP first, and use the first 10 mins for that?

	15-05-2003 01:38									#27
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Why put it in queue? Don't we jsut chose to build it first?

Err, yes, that's what I mean. Just another way of saying it. (If you put something in the queue while the current build order is "stockpile energy", the build order changes automatically to what you put in the queue btw.)

quote: I was thinking that it means we are ready to build former ASAP, whereas if we're building a CP we would have to wait ages to get formers. I was simply suggesting the way to get the former the quickest.

If I understand your method correctly, we will still have our ten free minerals in the queue when we research CentEco, and one credit per year it took to research CentEco, assuming we have two mins that are converted to one credit. If you count one mineral as having the same value as two energy (I always do so as it costs two energy to rush one mineral when hurrying facilities), that's a loss of 75%.

Using my method, we will have an extra scout patrol, and will gain two mins per year. It would surprise me if we were able to research CentEco in five years, so probably we'll have more ten mins in the queue when we research CentEco. If we then switch to a former, we'll lose half of the mins we have accumulated above the first ten. That's a loss of 50% for mins above the first ten, and a loss of 0% for the first ten mins.

quote: I agree with that method, although is the SP needed? Should we just for a CP first, and use the first 10 mins for that?

I'm afraid I don't understand you. What SP / Secret Project??

	15-05-2003 02:06									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Sorry I mean't SP as in scout patrol. As for the others, I consider mins and energy worth the same, as it is 2 min-1 energy for stockpiling, but 1 min-2 energy for rushing. I agree though, forget the stockpile energy. However, shoudl we build another scout patrol, and then go for CP, or go stright for CP, with the extra mins on that. The first means we'll likely change to building a former partway through the CP, the latter means we'll probably build the CP first.

Scout patrol, or no scout patrol, that is the question

	15-05-2003 02:25									#29
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quote: As for the others, I consider mins and energy worth the same, as it is 2 min-1 energy for stockpiling, but 1 min-2 energy for rushing.

Well personally I use the "stockpile energy" command much less than the "hurry" command. Also, as I usually play FM most of the time, I produce much more energy than minerals, again decreasing the value of energy, and increasing that of minerals.

quote: However, shoudl we build another scout patrol, and then go for CP, or go stright for CP, with the extra mins on that. The first means we'll likely change to building a former partway through the CP, the latter means we'll probably build the CP first.

Currently I can't have an opinion about that yet. I first need to know the starting location. If there's a nutrient surplus in the base radius, the base will probably grow to size 2 before the CP is done, and we can forget the scout patrol (though then we would need to garrison one of our independent scout patrols in the base to prevent drone riots). If there isn't a nutrient surplus, it's unlikely the base will grow before the CP is finished, and we'll have to build something else first before starting on a CP. Otherwise our HQ will be disbanded!

	15-05-2003 03:40									#30
	Suffering from ads?

seeing as we won't have formers off the start, i suppose i vote to build a scout first.