17-05-2003 23:20									#61
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Since humans are machines themselves, I think that it is possible to emulate. however, I don't think that the existing machines have this capability, and therefore, couldn't think of it, either.

	17-05-2003 23:42									#62
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BTW, how many of you noticed when the Architect is explaining things to Neo that when he gets to modeling the Matrix on the nasty parts of human history, along with Hitler and Stalin among many other pictures there was a picture of of Srubya.

	17-05-2003 23:58									#63
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Hey, warn before you spoil!

The movie opens at the 22nd, here.

	18-05-2003 00:01									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Smith was/is "trying to find his purpose." Everyone Neo comes across is changed in some way (which they hint at), and Smith's role won't be fully revealed until Revolutions (in the trailer it says "if you don't defeat him now then everything will be destroyed" or something to that effect).

Smith is a big nasty virus. Not only can he infect and control programs within the matrix, but he can do the same to humans outside. I haven't seen the trailer for the next movie (didn't know it followed the credits ) but maybe he'll be the common enemy in the next one.

	18-05-2003 00:09									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Since humans are machines themselves, I think that it is possible to emulate. however, I don't think that the existing machines have this capability, and therefore, couldn't think of it, either.

I was just about to say that. Why is it so stereotypical to make robots as such uncreative emotionless bengs just because we cant emulate such things as of now?

	18-05-2003 00:09									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Hey, warn before you spoil! The movie opens at the 22nd, here.

This whole thread is a spoiler

	18-05-2003 00:16									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Zero This whole thread is a spoiler

That's why I read it very carefully. I actually have the self control from reading it entirely.

	18-05-2003 00:21									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Zero I was just about to say that. Why is it so stereotypical to make robots as such uncreative emotionless bengs just because we cant emulate such things as of now?

From what I know of AI studies, creative, independent intelligences are not only not on the horizon, it is speculated they aren't even possible. The human brain has ten trillion cells. Granted, only part of that is used for consciousness, but it's the major part of it. Each cell has the capacity to connect to every other cell. The possible combinations is a factoral number that is so high it doesn't even have a name.

Even with nanotechnology, I doubt it's possible to create non-cellular computers with that capacity. Even if every computer on Earth were networked together, it wouldn't be as powerful as one human brain. And we have 6 billion+ human brains. There are somethings computers can do very, very well. Creativity isn't one of them.

	18-05-2003 00:26									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara From what I know of AI studies, creative, independent intelligences are not only not on the horizon, it is speculated they aren't even possible. The human brain has ten trillion cells. Granted, only part of that is used for consciousness, but it's the major part of it. Each cell has the capacity to connect to every other cell. The possible combinations is a factoral number that is so high it doesn't even have a name. Even with nanotechnology, I doubt it's possible to create non-cellular computers with that capacity. Even if every computer on Earth were networked together, it wouldn't be as powerful as one human brain. And we have 6 billion+ human brains. There are somethings computers can do very, very well. Creativity isn't one of them.

and yet mother nature created us from bunch of protein strands in few billion years...

Like I said, to deny any possibility just because you see a limitation on current situation does not mean it isnt possible later.

After all we are only sophisticated biological machines.

	18-05-2003 00:56									#70
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Should talk to UberKrux, hes knowledgable on artificial intellegence, IIRC

	18-05-2003 01:02									#71
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He better be, since he's majoring in it, IIRC.

	18-05-2003 01:23									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Zero and yet mother nature created us from bunch of protein strands in few billion years... Like I said, to deny any possibility just because you see a limitation on current situation does not mean it isnt possible later.

It isn't that I see a limitation on our current situation. The whole concept as you see it is flawed. AI is something rather different that what is imagined by the general public. At it's most basic, AI is simply a choosing program, and AI's can only make decisions based upon the choices they are given (which throws an interesting light on the binary choices forced upon the humans in the movie). Humans can make new choices. Instead of going through door 1 or door 2, Neo could have made at least two different choices, options he wasn't given. A machine can't do that. A machine will never be able to do that, at least not without using biocomputing, at which point you're getting back into the realm of life instead of machines.

quote: After all we are only sophisticated biological machines.

Incorrect. Saying life is simply a machine is merely an allogory, the opposite of anthropomorphism. Machines are tools. We aren't tools.

	18-05-2003 02:12									#73
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Maybe batteries is just what the humans think. Personally, I think the machines need humans for their creativity. Machines can't go past their limitations. Humans have that capacity, however. We could still be programming the Matrix from within, without realizing it.

Based on what I saw in the Second Renaissance, I'm going to have to call BS on this theory.

	18-05-2003 07:43									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Based on what I saw in the Second Renaissance, I'm going to have to call BS on this theory.

animatrix stuff was 10 times better than the movie. You know what I realized? Matrix is actually pretty damn good. All the times I've been complaining that its way to comic-like, but I realize that it is supposed to be a comic book like series. And considering how many anime/video game/Comic book movies fail horrendously, Matrix is just awesome.

It felt just right watching the secon renaissance series. Matrix defintely should release lots of comics and animes. it was really good.

And my friend tells me that stuff shown in the animtrix are officially correct with the main story plot. Is this true? I can imagine that is possible. After all second movie said there was 6 matrix.

	18-05-2003 07:49									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Zero And my friend tells me that stuff shown in the animtrix are officially correct with the main story plot. Is this true?

The "Final Flight of the Osiris" & "Kid's Story" are the two main ones' I can think of.

	18-05-2003 07:56									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel He better be, since he's majoring in it, IIRC.

majoring in artificial intellegence! geeze... thats advanced

	18-05-2003 08:01									#77
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those two were the only ones specifically referenced.

that annoying heroworshipping kid is the kid from kids story; the osiris is the one that they referred to in the photos they took of the dig.

	18-05-2003 10:32									#78
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1. it is obvious that there is a lot of religious symbolism in the movie. Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, etc.

So I look at the relationship between humans and machine like Jesus/Devil. Jesus (humans) is the creative one and the Devil is the one who copies Jesus and makes it appear to be better.
if that is true (by luck or genius writing) then we could say the relationship between Neo/Agent Smith is a microcosm of the humans and machine struggle.

Also, i noticed that there was a ( I dont know the exact name) Siva phalus worship shrine in the scene with the cake (look on the French guy's table). I thought that was great.

2. I think the rave was supposed to be 'Dance of the virgin'. They make the person dance till they die. So basically it forshawdowed the fall of Zion. Also, I hope they start revolutions with the battle of Zion.

3. Wow the video game is fun (gamecube version). i got a cheat to unlock everything, dvd, and music cd with my purchase

	18-05-2003 12:40									#79
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Saw it 2 days ago. Great. Just as good, if not better than the 1st.

	18-05-2003 14:46									#80
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The current binary semiconductor based computers were originally designed as tools for human. They excel in areas in which humans have great difficulties: mathematical computations and loss-less memory. On the otherhand, we have great difficulties in teaching computers some basic human abilities such as language and 'common sense'.

The binary logic system may never get AI past human intelligence. However, if we start to integrate them with biological systems, then all bets are off.

	18-05-2003 15:13									#81
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SPOILERS

quote: Originally posted by altF18 ah yes, Neo didn't even move like he did before he was the One in his fight with Morpheus in the first movie, or go as fast as when he was deflecting Agent Smith's blows after his resurrection. Instead it was slow fluid fighting... so much for the One. and yes, the entire soundtrack throughout the movie was lame. nothing like the suspenseful and intriguing first.

I only remember Neo fighting Smith(s); who could have evolved himself during the two movies. Which would explain why the fighting between them was dissimular form then to now.

If Neo had fought "agents" in this one, they would have been treated like they were at the end of the first movie. Neo kicking their tails with them having no chance whatsoever.

I'm not whooly sold on the idea that Trip has talked about; the "Matrix within a Matrix." I grant that it's possible, but also other things are possible. Like what if the "programs" are lying to him so that he sees his deeds/future as futile and decides against saving Zion since it doesn't really matter. Or the "Six times" that Neo has gone through to meet the Architect; the Architect is mistaken and is itself caught in a loop of "simulations." Or that the Oracle planted a virus into the Architect through Neo causing the Architect to believe certain things and to report fallacies to Neo.

There's list's of what if's from here to eternity......

I'm happy overall with the movie, even though I have my own reservations about the plausability of the actions I saw in terms of the plot. Like Neo's sudden ability to "link" with the Sentinals at the end.

	18-05-2003 17:39									#82
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if its a matrix within a matrix, its worse than who shot J.R on Dallas.

	18-05-2003 17:54									#83
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Consider how many times Star Trek pulled the "holodeck within a holodeck" trick...

	18-05-2003 17:57									#84
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star trek is no good example of a paragon of entertainment. if anything it just shows the power of the nerd audience to let a 3rd rate network let the show make itself look stupid.

	18-05-2003 19:32									#85
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SPOILER

I don't think Zion was really destroyed, though it deserved it. I think the guy that told the destroyed Zion story was a Smith, as was everyone else in that ship. Waddaya think?

I didn't see the trailer however, the headbanging music drove me off.

	18-05-2003 19:33									#86
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Can agents look like anyone? Can't recall...

	18-05-2003 19:36									#87
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Yes Lancer, yes they can.

	18-05-2003 19:40									#88
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So everyone on that ship could be a Smith, yes? The ship had Neo hooked up to the secret agent...

	18-05-2003 19:49									#89
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i havent seen reloded

	18-05-2003 19:57									#90
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If you don't want spoilers, don't read my post.

Here's my review after seeing the movie twice.

Great.

The parts I was critical of: The Zion scenes... Utterly stupid and impractical... the only worthwhile scene was the talk between Neo and the Counselor where he explained control and the relationship between humans and machines. The "celebration" part was stupid and useless. Just an excuse to show bits and pieces of semi-R rated soft-core action. And despite my love for female nudity, searching for nipples wasn't quite as fun as you'd think it would normally be.

After the Zion scenes, the movie gets good. The highway scene being the absolute best. I think that scene is now my most favorite action sequence, dethroning the Luke Vs Vader fight in Empire Strikes Back. The special effects in this movie were as big a jump from normal SE's as the first Matrix's scenes were.

The reason I think most reviewers are complaining about the story: The don't get it.

I was able to follow the philosophical talk during the French guy part and the architect part. IMO, most reviewers are giving negative reviews on the story because it's complex, and quite frankly, goes over their heads.

To sum up this movie and whether or not you'll like it: If you love eye-candy action... you will love it; but feel bored during the talking scenes. If you are a fan of philosophy and fantasy/sci-fi plots, you will love this movie through and through. If, however, you enjoy going to the movies and not having to think, you might not enjoy it as much as I have.

After the first Matrix, I walked out of the theatre thinking and philosophizing... this movie succeeding in that regard. I thought I understood the Matrix universe, but there were many new aspects of the plot that were revealed that left me with the same kind of questions after the first one.