19-05-2003 13:48									#151
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this is true, but it is difficult to see a way for this to be facilitated. When a mind is plugged in, you can program it, like how they "trained" neo. I believe it is in this manner that the freed mind was infected by smith. In the real world, i cannot think of a way for him to do this...

	19-05-2003 13:49									#152
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Btw, the Matrix is real, though not the one in the movie...that makes the movie itself just another level, or, if that's too much, a program.

What's the purpose of the movie within the true matrix?

God only knows.

	19-05-2003 13:56									#153
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now that i can't even begin to speculate....

	19-05-2003 13:59									#154
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Kaak, regarding your last post, even the brain activity within freed and free people is electrical...though the body is not, that wouldn't take on the appearance of agent Smith...

This is trying to follow the writers thoughts kinda before he has them. Likely very unproductive, considering.

	19-05-2003 14:04									#155
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"now that i can't even begin to speculate.... "

Sure... the blue pill.

	19-05-2003 14:07									#156
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quick question: did you noitce if the "cake girl" is the same girl that was wearing the red dress in the agent training program?

	19-05-2003 14:10									#157
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No, sorry I didn't notice. Trying to recall a 'cake girl'.

	19-05-2003 14:22									#158
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you know, the one at the merovingian's who ate the cake and then went boom....

	19-05-2003 14:25									#159
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Oh yeah...still can't recall if it was the same girl though.

	19-05-2003 17:27									#160
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I just saw it today - EXCELLENT !!!

	19-05-2003 19:38									#161
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"This is the sixth time we've destroyed Zion. We've gotten very good at it."

You really think that the machines have destroyed Zion in a "real world" 6 times, and the humans have completely rebuilt it again with 23 people each time? The humans have talked about how they had stopped the machines for 100 years and this would be no different. Zion isn't real, and it's just another part of the "reboot." The humans inside "Zion" have simply had their brains wiped each time the machines destroy them inside the second level of the Matrix. Your theory is perfect until you have to deal with the problem of the destruction of Zion.

	19-05-2003 21:50									#162
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Choice is an illusion. The Matrix gives those who chose not to live in the Matrix an alternative reality that makes them believe they are not in the Matrix, but alive, and rescuing people from the Matrix.

Neo is the first to realize this.

The next movie will be a quest to find the exit from the alternative Matrix so that the humans can really wake up and liberate humanity.

	19-05-2003 21:57									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak quick question: did you noitce if the "cake girl" is the same girl that was wearing the red dress in the agent training program?

My thoughts exactly... According to IMDB it's not the same girl though.

The cake girl is Tory Mussett, the woman in the red dress is Fiona Johnson (if either name actually means anything to you)

	19-05-2003 23:33									#164
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quote: You really think that the machines have destroyed Zion in a "real world" 6 times, and the humans have completely rebuilt it again with 23 people each time?

Yes. There are 250,000 people in Zion. I would think it would take a couple hundred years to build up a population like that from 23 people. If it were merely a matter of destroying a fake zion, they would be un able to "become exceedingly efficient at it." Besides, you forget. Neo sees the matrix as code. And he can see the code of things that are not of the matrix. the matrix within a matrix is impossible.

	20-05-2003 00:03									#165
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quote: Yes. There are 250,000 people in Zion. I would think it would take a couple hundred years to build up a population like that from 23 people. If it were merely a matter of destroying a fake zion, they would be un able to "become exceedingly efficient at it."

Why not? Everything's exactly the same as with a "real" world, except it's not real but virtual.

With each Matrix version, the things learned in the earlier versions can easily be added to the new version.

quote: Besides, you forget. Neo sees the matrix as code. And he can see the code of things that are not of the matrix. the matrix within a matrix is impossible.

No it isn't, Neo could only see the code after "resurrecting" when Smith shot him. At a higher Matrix level, it is very imagineable that he needs to re-acquire that ability (just like he only finds out now that he has powers in the "Zion world")... Probably when he wakes up from his coma.

	20-05-2003 00:30									#166
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I like these kinds of stories.

	20-05-2003 01:10									#167
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mercator:
I think, my friend, you are searching for explanations for things that you want to be true, instead of following the clues as they were lain before you...

	20-05-2003 01:19									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Yes. There are 250,000 people in Zion. I would think it would take a couple hundred years to build up a population like that from 23 people. If it were merely a matter of destroying a fake zion, they would be un able to "become exceedingly efficient at it."

A couple hundred years? Are you kidding? They would be very hard pressed to get to 1,000 in that time, let alone anywhere near 250,000. And notice, they said six times. An entire civilization rebuilt from 23 people six times. And notice the complexity and size of Zion. That would be impossible for 23 humans to rebuild it even once.

Rebuilding a fake Matrix would only require a few brainwashings, the modification of some code, and a reboot. All easily done by the machines.

quote: Besides, you forget. Neo sees the matrix as code. And he can see the code of things that are not of the matrix. the matrix within a matrix is impossible.

He sees it as code when he understands it. He stopped the machines coming towards them as if they were the bullets that had been fired at him before. Neo suddently "realized" he could see code in the first one. How is that different from the end of the second movie? All that matters is how the brain interprets something. If Neo still believed it was the real world, then he could never have seen the code in the first one, no matter how powerful he was. Just as in how he saw everything as the "real world" he didn't realize it was code, or look for that fact. Once the Architect explained everything to him, he began to understand. Then when the machines started coming for him, he realized that he could feel them coming, and that he could control their code, just as if they were bullets.

Also, notice in the movie that everyone seemed to think that Zion had never fallen even after centuries of attacks by the machines. Why would they say this if Zion had been rebuilt from 23 people six times?

	20-05-2003 01:28									#169
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quote: Also, notice in the movie that everyone seemed to think that Zion had never fallen even after centuries of attacks by the machines. Why would they say this if Zion had been rebuilt from 23 people six times?

because they don't know. They don't think the matrix is that old. Also, I think it is important for you to consider that during that time, they are also freeing people from the matrix, the anomolies. It is impossible for their to be a matrix in a matrix BECAUSE THEY SAID IN THE MOVIE THE ONLY WAY THE MATRIX WOULD WORK IS IF THERE WAS CHOICE. that would eliminate choice, and the matrix would fail. And you are wrong about neo only seeing code as he understands it. When they are in the core network, it is different than the rest of the matrix, yet he can see the code; even if it is encrypted and he can't understand it...

	20-05-2003 02:08									#170
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Kaak, I mostly agree with your ideas on the Oracle, and possibly the Architect as well.

But what is your theory on the Merovingian? Based upon his name (there is a LOT of religious symbology regarding Jesus, etc., in that name, and I'll explain if you want), he has to have a big role/purpose later on.

	20-05-2003 02:10									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Trip A couple hundred years? Are you kidding? They would be very hard pressed to get to 1,000 in that time, let alone anywhere near 250,000.

Don't forget they're also constantly freeing people from the Matrix.

quote: That would be impossible for 23 humans to rebuild it even once.

But if that's the case, how can the inhabitants of Zion themselves even believe they're free? I mean, they'd surely need to have a plausible history. So even with a matrix inside a matrix, there must be an explanation for getting that many people.

	20-05-2003 02:13									#172
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i completely agree David, but I haven't gotten him figured out yet. I know about the merovingian kings supposedly being descended from christ, or greek gods depending on what you read, but it would seem that neo is filling the role of the resurected diety.

The only thing that i can come up with is that he, as one who traffics information, might hold the key to either a) giving neo the "why" or b) telling neo what he needs to beat smith...

	20-05-2003 02:19									#173
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I have come to the realization that further thought on this will only make you insane.

	20-05-2003 02:30									#174
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Oops... My previous post was a "crosspost" with Kaak and DF (I watched a little of my Matrix DVD in between).

quote: I think, my friend, you are searching for explanations for things that you want to be true, instead of following the clues as they were lain before you...

Not really... It's just that I have no idea where it is going, so I'm keeping open all possibilities.

I agree with most of what you said, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to watch it again to get those things about choice.

But couldn't choice also be the very reason for creating a matrix within a matrix? To only give humans the idea that they have a choice.

	20-05-2003 02:36									#175
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very interesting stuff fellas

Gives me a lot to chew on for awhile. I definately need to see the movie again, if not to learn the plot a little better, then to see the Morpheus + Katana/Glock 18 scene = Blown up SUV again

	20-05-2003 02:43									#176
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quote: i completely agree David, but I haven't gotten him figured out yet. I know about the merovingian kings supposedly being descended from christ, or greek gods depending on what you read, but it would seem that neo is filling the role of the resurected diety.

True, but this could also be an indication of the Merovingian being a former One, who, for whatever reason, never fulfilled his purpose.

	20-05-2003 02:47									#177
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quote: But couldn't choice also be the very reason for creating a matrix within a matrix? To only give humans the idea that they have a choice.

No, remember in the architect scene, he was programmed to conform to perfection, so he couldn't figure out why the matrix wasn't working. The oracle stumbled on the fact that the way to make it work was to give humans a choice, atleast at some level, whether or not to accept the program. if it were a matrix in a matrix, they wouldn't really have a choice, only accept onr program or another. the whole system would crash again...

	20-05-2003 02:49									#178
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quote: True, but this could also be an indication of the Merovingian being a former One, who, for whatever reason, never fulfilled his purpose.

I don't think this is possible. The oracle specifically states that he is a program from outside the matrix, one of the oldest of them infact. He is also so convinced about causality and purpose i don't think this would fit...

	20-05-2003 02:50									#179
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Possibly he was someone who was absorbed into the system - possibly the One from the first, failed Matrix?

	20-05-2003 03:09									#180
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They'd have to free a lot of people to get 250,000 people in a hundred years.

I think a lot of people are missing the point of Zion. Zion and the "orgy" scene exist to show a dichotomy between humanity and the machines. We are earthy, brown, moist, erotic, sensual creations.

The Matrix is cold, mechanical, sterile. Even the images of sensuality in the Matrix--the cake scene, the kiss, the steak and wine from the last movie, had a sense of alienation to them. They were approximations of sensuality, not the real thing.

In Zion, most people are people of color. In the Matrix, most people are white.