23-05-2003 18:00									#211
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I'm not sure that matrix-within-a-matrix is the right answer, but those aren't reasons it has to be wrong. Choice can be artifical. If the human minds in the matrix (the primary one) reject the idea of the matrix, then they are allowed to be given a false 'choice' to leave that matrix and enter what they believe to be reality, but is really just another matrix. Having been given their choice, they no longer reject the second matrix because they believe they are where they are of their own free will. So maybe it's not so much a matrix within a matrix as it is parallel matrices.

It's kind of like a magician's force. They present you with a question that appears to make their trick random, as if you were telling them exactly what they should do. But in reality they are just interpreting your answer in such a way that they get to do what they were planning all along. The difference is that the audience's minds are satisfied that there was a choice because a question was asked and answered, regardless of whether or not it had any effect on the final outcome.

	23-05-2003 18:20									#212
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laurentius, did you get that from somewhere or do you just have a fantastic memory?

Though, I don't think it's perfect.

	23-05-2003 18:35									#213
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I just saw it yesterday. Excellent movie. The second half of it more than makes up for the so-so first hour. Most of the philosophical conversations I found deeply boring, with the exception of The Architects revelation at the end and Merovingians causality argument, the latter was hilarious.

BTW have any of you seen the Animatrix, specifically the 2nd Renaissance Part 2? At the beginning of it humanity drop nuclear missiles on the machines to destroy them, which doesn't have any effect. But I though nuclear missiles generate an EMP, which should have been able to knock the machines out. What gives?

	23-05-2003 18:36									#214
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Notice what Architect said:

"Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race."

"coupled with the extermination of Zion". I think this would seem to go against the Zion-matrix theory.

And besides, considering that Zion consists of the 0.01% of people who just couldn't fit in with the Matrix programming (ie. knew something was wrong all along), then how come the Zion-matrix programming wouldn't cause a similar feeling of wrongness?

	23-05-2003 19:26									#215
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quote: And besides, considering that Zion consists of the 0.01% of people who just couldn't fit in with the Matrix programming (ie. knew something was wrong all along), then how come the Zion-matrix programming wouldn't cause a similar feeling of wrongness?

The idea of wrongness comes from the lack of choice. With Zion, they get a choice, they can choose between the Matrix, or Zion, whether Zion is real doesn't matter because the human chooses Zion to be the real thing...
...
...i think

	23-05-2003 19:30									#216
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conclusion: they ****ed it up.

	23-05-2003 19:38									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael laurentius, did you get that from somewhere or do you just have a fantastic memory? Though, I don't think it's perfect.

Isnt it obvious, I have a fantastic memory of course

	23-05-2003 19:55									#218
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"To Be Concluded" not "To Be Continued"

There is a subtle but profound difference.

This is not part two of a trilogy, it is the first half of the second book in a duology.

The Matrix: Reloaded is not the complete story. That is why so many are confused and upset. At this point, the story is wide open to interpretation and presents more questions than it answers.

Consider how you feel after reading half a good book - your curiousity is piqued, you have many questions, and you read on. But these guys are making us wait until November for the other part of the book.

I, for one, am immensely enjoying the wealth of interpretations and conjecture offered by all - it proves that the story is an interesting one, that touches a wide range of topics: Philosophy, Metaphysics, many different advanced sciences, Psychology, etc.

	23-05-2003 19:59									#219
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no if you leave a book half read you only want to know what happens next.


in reloaded the first book is fullof inconsistencies already, not half answered riddles.

	23-05-2003 20:04									#220
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question: in the last scene, the one lyingon the bed close to neo was he the one smith took over in zion?

	23-05-2003 20:07									#221
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quote: Originally posted by dejon "To Be Concluded" not "To Be Continued" There is a subtle but profound difference.

The former means it will end with Part 3, the latter means there will be a Part 3, but it may not be the concluding part.

It could still be the 2nd in a trilogy, just not the second in a series of > 3.

	23-05-2003 20:11									#222
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 question: in the last scene, the one lyingon the bed close to neo was he the one smith took over in zion?

yes

	23-05-2003 20:56									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak i completely agree David, but I haven't gotten him figured out yet. I know about the merovingian kings supposedly being descended from christ, or greek gods depending on what you read, but it would seem that neo is filling the role of the resurected diety.

Ahem... I don't know about that, but I mentioned the Merovingian to my dad (who hasn't seen any Matrix movie), and he noted that King Clovis, king of the Merovingians was the first "barbarian" king to be Christened.

	23-05-2003 22:02									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator Ahem... I don't know about that, but I mentioned the Merovingian to my dad (who hasn't seen any Matrix movie), and he noted that King Clovis, king of the Merovingians was the first "barbarian" king to be Christened.

Yes, he was that too. This intrigued me when David first mentioned it. Disappointingly, everything2 had nothing on Merovingianess in general, so I googled. Seems to be mostly a whole load of bullshit, but the concensus of opinion is that these guys are descended from the Tribe of Dan and then the House of David via J.C., and went on to become the ancestors of most European monarchies.

(Tribe of Dan == Danmark?)

	23-05-2003 23:59									#225
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Clovis was hardly the first barbarian king to be Christened. The Goths has long been Christian, from the mid 200's on. The Burgundians has converted early in the 400's. Clovis' wife was a Burgundian who urged him to convert. He eventually did, and was baptised in 496.

Clovis was a Frank. There was nothing magical about him, except that he was ruthless.

	24-05-2003 00:03									#226
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quote: Originally posted by dv8ed I'm not sure that matrix-within-a-matrix is the right answer, but those aren't reasons it has to be wrong. Choice can be artifical. If the human minds in the matrix (the primary one) reject the idea of the matrix, then they are allowed to be given a false 'choice' to leave that matrix and enter what they believe to be reality, but is really just another matrix. Having been given their choice, they no longer reject the second matrix because they believe they are where they are of their own free will. So maybe it's not so much a matrix within a matrix as it is parallel matrices. It's kind of like a magician's force. They present you with a question that appears to make their trick random, as if you were telling them exactly what they should do. But in reality they are just interpreting your answer in such a way that they get to do what they were planning all along. The difference is that the audience's minds are satisfied that there was a choice because a question was asked and answered, regardless of whether or not it had any effect on the final outcome.

EVEN if the matrices are parallel with one another, the people in the tanks that are plugged into Matrix I exist in the parallel Matrix II. They are not really human.

The conversation with the architect makes it clear that the One is code, a program. Are there any humans truly alive?

	24-05-2003 01:11									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The conversation with the architect makes it clear that the One is code, a program.

How do you get that?

	24-05-2003 01:16									#228
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara How do you get that?

"The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program."

I think that's where he's getting it from.

	24-05-2003 09:59									#229
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I don't think that the One is a program. I think it (he) truely is an anomally and the machines know that when dealing with the huge numbers of people involved, that there will always be an anomally (Given an infinate number of monkeys with an infinate number of typewriters and eventually Shakespear will be written). They know he is coming and they prepare ahead of time for him.

	25-05-2003 23:38									#230
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal I don't think that the One is a program. I think it (he) truely is an anomally and the machines know that when dealing with the huge numbers of people involved, that there will always be an anomally (Given an infinate number of monkeys with an infinate number of typewriters and eventually Shakespear will be written). They know he is coming and they prepare ahead of time for him.

How does an ordinary human being raise his hand and stop the sentinels as Neo did at the close of the film? Either he was in a Matrix at that point, or he has the powers of a god. If the former, the movie plot is still intriguing. If the latter, the plot has become mundane.

	25-05-2003 23:56									#231
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I think we'll realize that "the real world" is a part of the matrix, too. How would Zion be an error if it was situated in the real world?

	26-05-2003 00:06									#232
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I'm pretty sure Azazel is right. I think the Matrix is a program inside the program of the real world, and that Agent Smith is able to move between them too, hence he was "set free". I think we haven't seen the last of him.

Did anyone else wait for the enmd of the ridiculously long credits to see the tralier thing for Revolutions? It looks good, and it looks like there's a major Smith/Neo battle at some point.

	26-05-2003 00:09									#233
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Btw, ^3 to the guy playing Agent Smith.

	26-05-2003 00:15									#234
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Hugo Weaving Great actor, both in the Matrix and in LOtR (haven't seen him in anything else )

	26-05-2003 00:21									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Hugo Weaving Great actor, both in the Matrix and in LOtR (haven't seen him in anything else )

Eh? What part does he play in LOTR?

	26-05-2003 00:23									#236
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quote: Eh? What part does he play in LOTR?

he's the main elf of rivendale

	26-05-2003 00:26									#237
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Elrond, Arwen's father. Very, very old guy

He deserves a 'best supporting actor' oscar for Smith IMHO. The multiple Smiths must have been hellish to act, when they all talk.

	26-05-2003 00:38									#238
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Hugo Weaving also dresses up in drag for Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.

	26-05-2003 00:40									#239
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Didn't read all the pages of the thread - not enough time but after seing the film - - Mr Smith and MR Anderson will unite me thinks, as they are now both the "anomaly" inthe perfect system, actually Mr Anderson is anomalous human which is to be expected - but Mr Smith is an anomalous program - I am sure that together they will kick the "architects ass" - anyway he really is a lovable charachter.

I know it sounds like a strecth, but that is the feeling I got from the second part.

	26-05-2003 01:00									#240
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quote: Hugo Weaving also dresses up in drag for Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.

Indeed.

And yes, I think he deserves an Oscar. If the folks in LOTR get oscars, so should the folks in the Matrix. ( he could compete for them both! )