20-05-2003 03:53									#181
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In Zion, most people are people of color. In the Matrix, most people are white.

I noticed that distinction too, but didn't mark the significance of it.

It might have something to do with the fact the the machines probably wiped out their creators first. Their creators, probably, were from developed nations, as opposed to developing nations. The only people left after the machines first attacked would be those in less civilized areas, generally those not of Western persuasion.

Wasn't it said somewhere (only seen it once, probably going to see it again tonight) that the Merovingian was like Neo somehow? Both of them had incredible ability or something. I don't remember.

	20-05-2003 04:57									#182
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quote: Wasn't it said somewhere (only seen it once, probably going to see it again tonight) that the Merovingian was like Neo somehow?

That's one theory, that I think is pretty likely.

	20-05-2003 07:27									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael I noticed that distinction too, but didn't mark the significance of it. It might have something to do with the fact the the machines probably wiped out their creators first. Their creators, probably, were from developed nations, as opposed to developing nations. The only people left after the machines first attacked would be those in less civilized areas, generally those not of Western persuasion. Wasn't it said somewhere (only seen it once, probably going to see it again tonight) that the Merovingian was like Neo somehow? Both of them had incredible ability or something. I don't remember.

No. They started in the middle-east and spread from there. See Episodes 1 and 2 of "The Second Renaisance (sp?)" if you really must know.

	20-05-2003 19:12									#184
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda No. They started in the middle-east and spread from there. See Episodes 1 and 2 of "The Second Renaisance (sp?)" if you really must know.

Well poo. I've only seen the movies. Thank you.

And now I remember what was said of the Merovingian (thanks to seeing the movie a second time). His wife said to Neo that her husband was, "once like you."

	20-05-2003 19:13									#185
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His wife was really hot, btw!

	20-05-2003 19:15									#186
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Broad in the beam tho.

	20-05-2003 19:47									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Broad in the beam tho.

American men are all closet homosexuals. They want to have sex with women who look like teenage boys, except for their breast implants.

Women are supposed to be rounded and soft!!!!!


Personally, I liked Link's wife best.

	20-05-2003 19:48									#188
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" American men are all closet homosexuals. They want to have sex with women who look like teenage boys, except for their breast implants.

Women are supposed to be rounded and soft!!!!!"

Whatever, she still had a fat arse.

	20-05-2003 19:53									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Whatever, she still had a fat arse.

Oh my god, Becky, look at her butt
It is so big
She looks like one of those rap guys girlfriends
Who understands those rap guys
They only talk to her because she looks like a total prostitute, ok?
I mean her butt
It's just so big
I can't believe it's so round
It's just out there
I mean, it's gross
Look, she's just so black

I like big butts and I can not lie
You other brothers can't deny
That when a girl walks in with an itty bitty waste
And a round thing in your face
You get sprung
Wanna pull up front
Cuz you notice that butt was stuffed
Deep in the jeans she's wearing
I'm hooked and I can't stop staring
Oh, baby I wanna get with ya
And take your picture
My homeboys tried to warn me
But with that butt you got
Me so horny
Ooh, rub all of that smooth skin
You say you wanna get in my Benz
Well use me, use me cuz you ain't that average groupy

I've seen them dancin'
The hell with romancin'
She sweat, wet, got it goin' like a turbo 'Vette

I'm tired of magazines
saying flat butt's the only thing
Take the average black man and ask him that
She gotta pack much back, so

Fellas (yeah), fellas (yeah)
Has your girlfriend got the butt (hell yeah)
Well shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake that healthy butt
Baby got back

(LA face with Oakland booty)

I like'em round and big
And when I'm throwin' a gig
I just can't help myself
I'm actin like an animal
Now here's my scandal

I wanna get you home
And ugh, double ugh, ugh
I ain't talkin' bout Playboy
Cuz silicone parts were made for toys
I wannem real thick and juicy
So find that juicy double
Mixalot's in trouble
Beggin' for a piece of that bubble
So I'm lookin' at rock videos
Watchin' these bimbos walkin' like hoes
You can have them bimbos
I'll keep my women like Flo Jo
A word to the thick soul sistas
I wanna get with ya
I won't cus or hit ya
But I gotta be straight when I say I wanna ****
Til the break of dawn
Baby, I got it goin on
A lot of pimps won't like this song
Cuz them punks like to hit it and quit it
But I'd rather stay and play
Cuz I'm long and I'm strong
And I'm down to get the friction on

So ladies (yeah), ladies (yeah)
If you wanna role in my Mercedes (yeah)
Then turn around
Stick it out
Even white boys got to shout
Baby got back

(LA face with the Oakland booty)

Yeah baby
When it comes to females
Cosmo and got nothin to do with my selection
36-24-36
Only if she's 5'3"

So your girlfriend rolls a Honda
Playin' workout tapes by Fonda
But Fonda ain't got a motor in the back of her Honda
My anaconda don't want none unless you've got buns hon
You can do side bends or sit-ups, but please don't lose that butt
Some brothers wanna play that hard role
and tell you that the butt need to go
So they toss it and leave it
And I pull up quick to retrieve it
So Cosmo says you're fat
Well I ain't down with that
Cuz your waste is small and your curves are kickin'
And I'm thinkin' bout stickin'
To the beanpole dames in the magazines
You ain't it Miss Thang
Give me a sista I can't resist her
Red beans and rice didn't miss her
Some knucklehead tried to dis
Cuz his girls were on my list
He had game but he chose to hit 'em
And pulled up quick to get with 'em
So ladies if the butt is round
And you wanna triple X throw down
Dial 1-900-mixalot and kick them nasty thoughts
Baby got back

	21-05-2003 01:13									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak because they don't know. They don't think the matrix is that old. Also, I think it is important for you to consider that during that time, they are also freeing people from the matrix, the anomolies. It is impossible for their to be a matrix in a matrix BECAUSE THEY SAID IN THE MOVIE THE ONLY WAY THE MATRIX WOULD WORK IS IF THERE WAS CHOICE. that would eliminate choice, and the matrix would fail. And you are wrong about neo only seeing code as he understands it. When they are in the core network, it is different than the rest of the matrix, yet he can see the code; even if it is encrypted and he can't understand it...

How would they not know that Zion had been destroyed six times and was rebuilt by 23 people each time if it occurred in the "real world?"

The whole idea of "choice" was an illusion. Everyone has a purpose. That point was knocked into our heads for the entire movie. The battle between choice and purpose.

	21-05-2003 04:04									#192
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quote: The whole idea of "choice" was an illusion. Everyone has a purpose. That point was knocked into our heads for the entire movie. The battle between choice and purpose.

I agree. Purpose is one of the most important concepts in the movie, IMO.

	21-05-2003 04:59									#193
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Did Persephone allow the Merovingian to find out what she had done just so that she could see the look on his face (and create a twenty minute fight scene), or was there some purpose in that?

	21-05-2003 05:39									#194
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quote: How would they not know that Zion had been destroyed six times and was rebuilt by 23 people each time if it occurred in the "real world?"

Now...

This is why I'm waiting to see the movie.

How do we know we are not in a matrix ourselves?

How could we tell if we are inside of a matrix?

What is this 'real' world you speak of?

	21-05-2003 16:05									#195
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quote: If Neo had fought "agents" in this one, they would have been treated like they were at the end of the first movie.

hmm, Neo did actually. And it was nothing like in Matrix 1. Sure, the agents were "upgrades", but Neo seemed to be downgraded.

	21-05-2003 16:13									#196
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The "Agent Smiths" that Neo fought were more like Neo than the original agents. They were closer in ability to Neo because the original Agent Smith copied Neo.

That said, it would have been good if Neo had owned someone in a fight like in the original.

	23-05-2003 00:06									#197
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OK, just saw it. The first half was generally useless, but from the Smith fight scene on it was goooood.

quote: Did anyone pick up the Merovingian bit? Unless I'm reading too much into it, there's a bit of symbolism there.

This has nothing to do with your theories of Merovingian, but I couldn't but help thinking...

"Corinthian" from Sandman.

	23-05-2003 01:16									#198
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Speculation time:

The Councillor is the last One before Neo. The council consists of the people who he chose with him to create the current version of Zion. That's why he had the 'nambla moment', as someone called it, with Neo (he's preparing him for taking his role, see), that's why he undermines Lock's defenses, and that's why there are no young folks in the council (there was something about this during the nambla moment, but seriously, was someone paying much attention?)

	23-05-2003 01:57									#199
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Ok, seen it. Liked it.

Criticisms:

As others have said, the rave scene is too long. Yes, I get it, we're earthy, passionate creatures, now let's move on.

The fight against the Agent Smiths was great to start off with, but the CG was depressingly obvious towards the end. They could have cut it off much earlier.

There were too many fights. I know this sounds crazy, but the time spent on rather irrelevant fights could have been used to ratchet up the tension, and make a better explanation of the plot. In particular, the fight Neo has with the Oracle's protector served little purpose, and was relatively bland, and the seltbelt fight with one of the Twins was also a rather silly low-key affair.

Thoughts:

In the Matrix, there was a single enemy, the Agents, who clearly worked in tandem with the sentinels. In Reloaded, we have the Agents, Agent Smiths, Sentinels and the Merovingian's gang. Some overt cooperation between the Agents and the Sentinels would have made the Agents seem more impressive. On the other had, maybe their apparent lack of direction is a consequence of losing Agent Smith.

I reckon the Merovingian is a program that was defeated by an earlier One, and recieved strange powers like Agent Smith. Whereas Smith can replicate himself, possibly reflecting his own egoism, the Merovingian can collect and store, and possibly create, other programs, like Persephone and the Twins.

I think that the Architect is a fraud. He failed to offer any proof of his identity, or of his story being true. He was relying on Neo's guillibility to save his own neck. If Neo had done the happy chicken dance, the Architect would have said: "The happy chicken dance, how predictably human."

	23-05-2003 03:51									#200
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There is some proof that what the Architect says is correct. The Merovingian, before Neo finds the Architect, mentions Neo's "predecessors" more than once. This most likely refers to previous Ones. Some of what the Architect said, especially concerning six previous Ones, had to be true.

	23-05-2003 04:40									#201
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I'm agreeing with Kaak on practically everything so far. Some definite weirdness.

I found some of the fights dragged on a bit as well... Oh, but theory of why Neo's fighting wasn't ultra-fast: Because all the fighting against the 'upgrades' and Smiths was done at ultra-fast speed, so was slowed down for the viewers to see properly.

quote: Possibly he was someone who was absorbed into the system - possibly the One from the first, failed Matrix?

I like this theory, there are clues dropped that he is much like Neo... except that the first Matrix was perfect, and so had no "One" leftover.

Oh, and I'm sure there was a pomegranite on Persephone's dinner table

	23-05-2003 10:06									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Speculation time: The Councillor is the last One before Neo. The council consists of the people who he chose with him to create the current version of Zion. That's why he had the 'nambla moment', as someone called it, with Neo (he's preparing him for taking his role, see), that's why he undermines Lock's defenses, and that's why there are no young folks in the council (there was something about this during the nambla moment, but seriously, was someone paying much attention?)

very interetsing...

	23-05-2003 10:09									#203
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The councillor would have to be very old for that to be true.

	23-05-2003 10:17									#204
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The problem with that theory is that the previous One is dead.

	23-05-2003 11:28									#205
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I just realized that if there is a matrix within a matrix that the humans who are allegedly plugged into the matrix are themselves only computer programs. The question then becomes are there real humans someplace in a higher level? Or is Neo really just a computer program that has become self-aware?

Neo could be like a Star Trek hologram that became self-aware and wants to become real.

	23-05-2003 12:42									#206
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one more reason it isn't a matrix within a matrix

	23-05-2003 16:50									#207
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Does anyone by any chance have the full dialogue between Neo and the Architect? Or maybe someone who can completely remember it?

	23-05-2003 17:18									#208
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Here you go Lemmy





**************SPOILERS***************


















Architect: Hello Neo

Neo: Who are you?

Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question maybe the most pertinent you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant.

Neo: Why am I here?

Architect: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent in the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden deciduously avoided it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexcerably here.

Neo: You haven’t answered my question.

Architect: Quite right. Interesting, that was quicker then the others.

Neo: Others? (What others? How many? Answer me)

Architect: The Matrix is older then you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next. In which case this is the sixth version.

Neo: Then there are only two possible explanations, either no one told me, or no one knows.

Architect: Precisely, as you are undoubtedly gathering the anomaly is systemic. Creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

Neo: Choice, the problem is choice.

Architect: The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect; it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it, Based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However I was again frustrated my failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another, and intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo: The Oracle

Architect: Please, as I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at an unconscious level. While this answered function it was obviously fundamentally flawed thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly. That if left unchecked might threaten the system itself, ergo those that refuse the program while the minority if unchecked would cause an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo: This is about Zion

Architect: You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo: Bull

Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it. The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix. Which, coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo: You won’t let it happen, you can’t. You need human beings to survive.

Architect: There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However the relevant issue is whether you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world. It is interesting reading your reactions. Your 5 predecessors were by design based on a similar predication a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way your experience is far more specific, Vis a vie love.

Neo: Trinity

Architect: Apropo, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo: No

Architect: Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end. There are two doors, the door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion, the door to your left leads back to the matrix to her and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know we you are going to do don’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth, she is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.

Neo: If I were you, I would hope that we don’t meet again.

Architect: We won’t.

	23-05-2003 17:35									#209
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So what about the spoon? How did it end up in the real world, if it isn't real ("there is no spoon")?

	23-05-2003 17:39									#210
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Stupid obvious answer: It's not the same spoon.