31-05-2003 09:08									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Thue I think the point is that 1.5million could easily die if it ran unchecked.

No, the point is that we live in a world with not enough real to worry about, so we make things up.

	31-05-2003 09:35									#152
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quote: Originally posted by LoneWolf No, the point is that we live in a world with not enough real to worry about, so we make things up.

We are not making up people dying of a new illness near us. One that spreads in some interesting ways. No one really knows how far something like this could get.

Blown out of proportion? I suppose the Black Death was blown out of proportion, yes?

My point is that with any outbreak like this, no one knows for sure it isn't the next plague until some time passes. I don't think anyone has made anything up. Rather, the problem seems to be authorities trying to hush things up.

	31-05-2003 11:06									#153
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The plague killed one third of the population of Europe (more in some areas). This has killed 500 some folks.

Your hysteria is just proving my point.

	31-05-2003 21:04									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I remember you claimed to have been to China. Nevertheless, your own words are all we got.

Sigh, I've seen more of China than you have. But then again, you only see what you want to see. So I guess nearly every visitor to China has seen more of it than you.

quote: That has something to do with the government?

Since we're only talking about the Chinese government, I ask you what any of your previous posts in this thread have to do with. You spent nearly all of them talking about the US government. You should be banned for spamming off topic then.


You hear? Okay. That means you really haven't been to China, afterall. [/QUOTE]

Sorry, UR but that is pathetic. You're responses to the other posters weren't much better. You spend all your time evading the issue. People say your smart, perhaps with computers and math, but everywhere else I've seen this sort of dribble. Perhaps you should relax. Take some time off. Maybe you should avoid political thread, especially China related ones. Or you should just face the fact that you can not argue. But it's cute that you try.

	31-05-2003 21:11									#155
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Reported in today's New York Times: quote: Number of SARS Cases Falls Sharply in China By ERIK ECKHOLM EIJING, May 30 — China has nearly tamed the SARS epidemic, with new cases dwindling and no evidence of the wildfire spread in the hinterlands that experts had feared, a senior health official said today. Daily reports of new SARS cases nationwide averaged 151 in early May but fell to 14 in the final third of the month as the epidemic "started to be effectively controlled," said Gao Qiang, executive vice minister of health, at a news conference today. The country reported seven new SARS cases in the 24 hours ending this morning, six of them in Beijing. A cumulative total of 5,600 cases have been reported nationwide since the epidemic began last fall in the southern province of Guangdong, with a total of 328 deaths. Mr. Gao, who took effective command of the health ministry on April 20, when the former health minister and the mayor of Beijing were both fired, cautioned against complacency. But he said that the country's sweeping new measures of quarantine, contact tracing and infection control appeared to be taking effect. The disease has largely been confined to Guangdong, Beijing and a few provinces near the capital, he said, and "there has not been large-scale spread in rural areas." International experts still raise questions about China's SARS reporting but generally agree that the disease appears to be waning. Some warn that SARS might resurge in the fall, a pattern shown by related viruses. Mr. Gao defended the statistics today, saying, "I've learned that infectious diseases are impossible to cover up." But he refused to offer special praise to a retired military doctor who in mid-April played a key role in exposing an official cover-up of SARS. At a time when the health minister at that time, Zhang Wenkang, claimed that Beijing had only 12 SARS cases and that the disease was under "effective control," the doctor, Jiang Yanyong, told the news media that more than 100 SARS patients were being treated in a few military hospitals alone, with many deaths. Alarmed by Dr. Jiang's claims and other evidence, the World Health Organization demanded access to Beijing hospitals and found that SARS was far more prevalent than officials had admitted. On April 20, China's top leaders changed course dramatically, firing the two officials, pledging honest numbers and starting huge control campaigns. Dr. Jiang was not been punished for speaking out and has recently won praise from a few newspapers, but he was also ordered by military superiors to stop speaking to the press. "I don't know why people are so interested in Dr. Jiang," Mr. Gao said today when asked about the man considered by many people here to be a real hero. "We have six million doctors and health care workers and Jiang Yanyong is one of them," he said, praising the profession as a whole for its sacrifices. Mr. Gao did say, though, that the epidemic had exposed the unprepared state of China's public health agencies and medical facilities. As the immediate threat of SARS recedes, he said, he faces the even more daunting task of fixing those problems.

But I thought that the western media only criticized China. How can this be?

Seriously, despite the clumsy start, the Chinese government has done a rather good job containing the problem. Let's hope that this will allow reform so that it won't happen again. Let's hope that the reform leans more toward open sharing of information, rather than more repressive measure and firing people for show.

	31-05-2003 21:16									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What does this suppose to mean? I have never denied human rights violations occur. I deny that the occurances are systemetic and widespread. Certainly none of the reports DD cited could back up his own assertions.

Actually, you said nothing about it. You only said that you didn't believe the article (probably because it doesn't fit with your view of the world), and spent the rest of the time criticizing the US in this and other China threads.

quote: So, are you implying everything is great in good old US of A, that bad things are not happening inside and outside the country? Oh, let me see. A Catalogue of Failures: G8 Arms Exports and Human Rights Violations No more excuses: The USA must obey International Court decision on prisoners' rights PROGRAM FOR ACTION ON HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE USA UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Hypocrisy or human rights? Time to choose UNITED STATES OF AMERICA A time for action - Protecting the consular rights of foreign nationals facing the death penalty This is just a short list of various AI documents on human rights abuses in the US. The truth of the story is your backyard isn't exactly clean. I fail to see why you are all so diligently telling other countries that their houses are dirty, when you should first clean up your own.

Uh-hem.

	31-05-2003 21:25									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Taiwan Independence: Hardly any different from the US's handling of the Freeman movement in, which advocated independence of Montana. Or what about the Civil War? I mean, it's not the US letting part of the country go away so easily, right? Fulong Gong: Waco, Branch Davidian. Enough said. Could the state of California or New York work outside the framework of United States? They[US] shot journalists during GWII on more than one occasion. They also shot innocent civilians who didn't know English. There is no absolute standards to human rights, in fact, flag burning is illegal in many countries. Besides, last I heard, a lot of innocent civilians in the US have been killed by loons with guns. Even in the West, there are some pretty hellish parts. Ask Albert Speer about Philly, for example. 1. Yes, they [US] shot the journalists on purpose. 2. No, not all battlefiled reporters were "embedded's" 3. Who knows why? Why ask me? Oh really? Certainly the Chinese government hasn't been profiling minorities. They hasn't invaded any foreign counties, dropping tons of bombs, leaving behind unexploded bomblets, radioactive DU cores, hidden landmines, and who knows what. So, are you implying everything is great in good old US of A, that bad things are not happening inside and outside the country? Oh, let me see. A Catalogue of Failures: G8 Arms Exports and Human Rights Violations No more excuses: The USA must obey International Court decision on prisoners' rights PROGRAM FOR ACTION ON HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE USA UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Hypocrisy or human rights? Time to choose UNITED STATES OF AMERICA A time for action - Protecting the consular rights of foreign nationals facing the death penalty This is just a short list of various AI documents on human rights abuses in the US. The truth of the story is your backyard isn't exactly clean. I fail to see why you are all so diligently telling other countries that their houses are dirty, when you should first clean up your own. A few people got killed in several days of rioting. How's that worse? How many people got killed in the LA riotings sparked by the Rodney King beatings? So you are asserting that all is peachy over there in the US of A?

I think it is time to admit that you have a problem.

	31-05-2003 23:32									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger So you are asserting that all is peachy over there in the US of A?

Nothing is prefect. Yes US has problems, but we can speak out against the government and seek to fix these problems in the courts and legislature. In China I doubt their is any short of apeals process, and if there is it is the dession is set in stone before they even hear the case.

As for the things you linked to they do not give very much information and mostly deal with prisoners and their rights Well if that is the only thing they have to complain about I think that shows that US has a good human rights record.

	01-06-2003 06:15									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Nothing is prefect. Yes US has problems, but we can speak out against the government and seek to fix these problems in the courts and legislature. In China I doubt their is any short of apeals process, and if there is it is the dession is set in stone before they even hear the case.

Of course there's an appeals process in China. Local-level elections are beginning to be implemented as well, and the City of Shenzhen is planning an experiment with the separation of executive and legislative powers. And why exactly would the decision be set in stone even before the case is presented? Because the men at the top just want to be "evil"?

You seem to have the idea that China is run as some sort of Dark Lord's lair. But ruling the nation like Dr Evil would be a damn stupid way to take the nation to superpower status, especially in this day and age when people can access information so easily. (The Great Firewall is a joke, frankly.) And the technocrats at China's top are doing a much better job than most of their counterparts in poor, underdeveloped nations in the world.

In conclusion, drop your preconceptions and ask yourself this: what is the current demographics and economic situation of China? What is the goal China should be aiming for? What realistic course of action is best for China right now? Is the Chinese leadership following that course of action?

	01-06-2003 07:45									#160
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Many despots have been amazingly enlightened and accomplished many great things for their nations and, suprisingly, for their people.

The issue is not that China is making great gains, they/you are. The issue is the nature of the government, who chooses it, what happens when you challenge it, and what happens later when the despots are not so enlightened.

I really hope things work out for China. Honestly. A managed migration towards a more representative form of government after a period of economic development sounds like a good plan as compared to results in Russia... if it works, and you don't find yourselves in the midst of another Great Leap Forward.

Good luck.

	01-06-2003 10:03									#161
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Many despots have been amazingly enlightened and accomplished many great things for their nations and, suprisingly, for their people.

I wouldn't actually consider this amazing at all. If they're enlightened, they would have both the intelligence and the foresight to accomplish great things for the nation. That, in turn, is almost always good for the people.

quote: The issue is not that China is making great gains, they/you are. The issue is the nature of the government, who chooses it, what happens when you challenge it, and what happens later when the despots are not so enlightened.

The nature of government is never an end in itself, it is merely a means. The end that we should be looking for is stability, progress, prosperity, and happiness. If a certain "nature of government" (whether democracy or dictatorship) cannot achieve that under a certain situation, then for that situation it is not a good form of government at all.

quote: I really hope things work out for China. Honestly. A managed migration towards a more representative form of government after a period of economic development sounds like a good plan as compared to results in Russia... if it works, and you don't find yourselves in the midst of another Great Leap Forward.

Hopefully that (the GLF) wouldn't happen. Luckily there's no sign of that right now. And probably no one in China today is interested in trying collectivization again.

quote: Good luck.

Thank you.

	01-06-2003 10:04									#162
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My grandma and my aunt have just been quarantined in Toronto.

	01-06-2003 10:07									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless My grandma and my aunt have just been quarantined in Toronto.

Jesus Christ! I hope they're alright.

And this is so close to home....

	01-06-2003 11:18									#164
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My mother is in quarrantine in Toronto too.

She's receiving chemo treatment for cancer and was in North York General when the latest outbreak occurred.

I think she'll be fine. She wasn't in the area where the SARS patients were, but I'll rest a bit earlier at the end of the week.