29-05-2003 01:39									#61
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quote: I am sure China is a nice place to go on vacation and such, and that they treat tourists very nicely.

Once again, you didn't even read what I posted.

I was not talking about tourism. The reason why I mentioned the shopping streets in Beijing and Shanghai was to expressly talk about the emerging middle class and rising living standards in China.

And apparently you didn't read that analogy I made either. Let me put it in closer detail, this time, right next to a compendium of your beliefs. Please, compare the parallel arguments on top and below.

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Every nation is not prefect and has done things they are not to proud of, but of all nations on earth China is the worst when it comes to human rights. ... [In fact] in China the communist government I think the main reason they are having so many problems with SARS in the first place. (In response to argument that most people will never face state brutality in China.) [T]he only reason those people never get brothered is that they know if they speak out they will quickly be dealt with, so like so many other places in the world just go with the flow and keep quite. (In response to argument that many countries are much more abusive.) And I know there are governments worst then the communist one in China, but they are already way down on the list as far as human rights. ... And you know why I dont want to live in China? The major reason is that I know if I went there I would be put in jail or maybe even executed if I tried to execerise my religious beliefs in that country, or even just voiced oposition to some government policy. (in response to argument that China's human rights problems are nowhere near the hellish level described above.) I can not accept the way the government of China treats its people and digards human rights. You sound as if they hold human rights dear in that country. Is that really so? If it is show me the proof of it. ... So you are saying that all the stuff i posted is propaganda? That China's government does not abuse human rights?? .... I am just pointing out one of the many injustices that take place in the world. How is this propaganda?? (in response to request to go to China and see for yourself) I am sure China is a nice place to go on vacation and such, and that they treat tourists very nicely.

Now, me arguing with the Asian version of you.

---

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www's evil twin who has lived in the Far East all his life Every nation is not prefect and has done things they are not to proud of, but of all nations on earth America is the worst when it comes to violence and crime. ... [In fact] in America the gun-loving government I think the main reason they are having so many problems with violence in the first place. (In response to argument that most people will never face fatal violence in America.) [T]he only reason those people never get brothered is that they know if they go to bad neighbourhoods (even during the day) they would likely get mugged or even shot. They know that they have to put metal detectors at school. They don't get bothered because they are used to these crazy measures that we in Asia will never have to go through. (In response to argument that many countries are much more violent.) And I know there are societies worst then the gun-filled one in America, but they are already way down on the list as far as danger on the streets is concerned. ... And you know why I dont want to live in America? The major reason is that I know if I went there my children might be shot if I sent them to school, that they have to go through metal detectors, or else their classmate could shoot them. (in response to argument that America's violence problems are nowhere near the hellish level described above.) I can not accept the way the government of America has allowed guns onto the streets. You sound as if they hate guns a lot in that country and that Columbine didn't happen. Is that really so? If it is show me the proof of it.... So you are saying that all the stuff i posted is propaganda? That America's government has declared guns illegal and that there are no school shootings?? .... I am just pointing out one of the many injustices that take place in the world. How is this propaganda?? (in response to request to go to America and see for yourself) I am sure America is a nice place to go on vacation and such, and that you will mostly go to the touristy sites and go back to your hotel at night.

Please, compare point by point. Read through everything, which you don't seem to have done before with any of my posts. I hope that after you've done that, you can see why your views are quite overblown, as overblown as the ones belonging to your Asian evil twin.

	29-05-2003 07:08									#62
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ranskaldan do you clam that China does not violate human rights of many of it ciztizens? Who do you think the Chinese government treats its own people? How do you think they treat those who voice opposition to them or try to pratice religion?? Please tell me I would really like to know if you seem to know so much about China, more then I do.

	29-05-2003 08:36									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www So are you saying the US solders shot these people on purpose? They had inbeded reporters with the troops, why would they shoot reporters on purpose??

1. Yes, they shot the journalists on purpose.
2. No, not all battlefiled reporters were "embedded's"
3. Who knows why? Why ask me?

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www When you are in a war zone and people are shoting guns, things like this happen, but you cant tell me they were under orders to do this.

Go check the news archives.

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Yes US may have done some bad things, but I would rather live in the USA then any other place on earth. Here we enjoy lots of freedoms, and sadly in many parts of the world, including China they do not.

Freedoms of what? Getting shot by lunatic gunmen? Getting profiled for being a minority? Getting immolated by ruffians for being a homeless? Face it, for the average citizen, China is a much, much safer place.

	29-05-2003 08:37									#64
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc By what standard of human rights is the extensive use of torture in China OK?

Cite?

	29-05-2003 08:39									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www ranskaldan do you clam that China does not violate human rights of many of it ciztizens? Who do you think the Chinese government treats its own people? How do you think they treat those who voice opposition to them or try to pratice religion?? Please tell me I would really like to know if you seem to know so much about China, more then I do.

For the third time in a row, you've replied WITHOUT reading my post and totally missed my point.

Never did I EVER say that there are no human rights violations in China. If I were arguing with your hypothetical evil twin in Asia, I would NEVER say either that there are no schoolyard shootings in America. But then, you haven't even read that analogy, have you.

GO BACK AND READ WHAT I WROTE, jesus christ! Go back and read that analogy in the last post I did. I'm getting tired of telling you the same things again and again.

	29-05-2003 08:47									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www ranskaldan do you clam that China does not violate human rights of many of it ciztizens?

What is human rights? Which human rights? You haven't even defined what you are trying to say. The biggest problem with screaming "human rights," "freedom," and "democracy" at the top of your lungs is you don't have a clue what you are saying, and neither do the people listening to you. As I pointed out repeatedly, these terms are very nice sounding, but they are so broad and so widely debased that, the only use for them is to either bash your politcal opponents or make yourself look good.

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Who do you think the Chinese government treats its own people?

What is your question here?

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www How do you think they treat those who voice opposition to them or try to pratice religion??

How do you think? Where did your information come from? Who got oppressed? Dalai Lama? Li Hongzi?

	29-05-2003 09:04									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www ranskaldan do you clam that China does not violate human rights of many of it ciztizens? Who do you think the Chinese government treats its own people? How do you think they treat those who voice opposition to them or try to pratice religion?? Please tell me I would really like to know if you seem to know so much about China, more then I do.

Urban Ranger and I live in the People's Republic of China. We have freedom of religion and freedom of speech. We can speak out against the government without fear. No one gets tortured. There are some problems with racism and poverty, but for the most part, we have human rights that are on par, if not better than what Americans have. The Beijing government that you think is so evil has not overtly interfered with our rights.

	29-05-2003 09:11									#68
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Who is selling what in this thread?

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/05/china051003.htm

quote: China: Harsh Sentences for Labor Activists Relatives Report Police Abuse at Hearing (New York, May 10, 2003) -- China's conviction of two labor activists for organizing peaceful protests shows how little China's legal system has changed in political cases, Human Rights Watch said today. The activists, Yao Fuxin and Xiao Yunliang, were convicted without legal representation. Human Rights Watch called on China to drop all charges and to immediately release the two men. During the hearing, police reportedly roughed up the labor activists' family members. Human Rights Watch said there should be a full investigation into this incident. "China chose to celebrate May Day this year by trampling on the rights of workers and intimidating their families," said Brad Adams, executive director of the Asia Division of Human Rights Watch. "These convictions give the lie to Beijing's smooth rhetoric about improving labor rights." Yao and Xiao received seven and four-year sentences respectively. They had been detained in March 2002 after organizing tens of thousands of laid-off workers to peacefully protest in Liaoning province. Their lawyer, Beijing-based Mo Shaoping, was not present at the hearing. In order to prevent the spread of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS), Liaoning province requires that Beijing visitors observe a ten-day isolation period. Mo was not notified of the hearing date in time to fulfill the requirement. He plans to appeal. On the day of the trial, hundreds of Liaoning workers reportedly gathered to protest at the court building, where they were met by a strong show of police force. Xiao Yunliang's daughter, Xiao Yu, reported that during the proceedings she was pushed into a car by five or six police officers outside of the court building, and that a police officer struck her mother when she objected to the treatment of her daughter. Yao and Xiao, who were charged with "attempting to overthrow state political power," were given no opportunity to speak at the hearing or otherwise present a defense. Court officials allowed only one member from each of the men's families to witness the proceedings. "The International Labour Organisation, the United States, and other international actors interested in labor rights in China should press Beijing for the immediate release of Yao and Xiao," said Adams. "The apparent abuse and intimidation of family members should be promptly investigated." A copy of the activists' December 2002 indictment, obtained by Human Rights Watch, indicated the subversion charges were based on interviews the men gave to international media, contacts they had with Hong Kong-based human rights groups, and their alleged attendance at meetings of the China Democracy Party in 1998-99. The indictment can be read at http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/02/chinaindictment.htm. Previous Human Rights Watch statements on the case can be found at http://www.hrw.org/asia/china.php (English) and http://www.hrw.org/chinese/ (Mandarin).

	29-05-2003 09:19									#69
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NYE: I think we all agree that there are human rights violations in China and that things could be better. The disagreement is with Jack's claim that China is the worst human rights offender, or one of the worst.

	29-05-2003 09:20									#70
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Freedom of religion?

http://www.family.org/cforum/resear...s/a0012092.html

quote: The People's Republic of China "Chinese government violations of religious freedom increased markedly during the past year…. Roman Catholic and Protestant underground 'house churches' suffered increased repression; the crackdown included the arrests of bishops, priests, and pastors, one of whom was found dead in the street soon afterward. Several Catholic bishops were ordained by the government without the Vatican's participation or approval…. The Commission concludes that the Chinese government's practices with respect to religious freedom violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)." The Commission's Vice Chair Michael Young: "It's impossible to ignore the serious deterioration in religious freedom during the past year in China…. We're not just talking about people being harassed, or arrested and fined for trying to live out their religious lives. We're talking about three-year labor-camp sentences without trial, about multi-year prison terms, about people-including women-beaten to death by police."

	29-05-2003 09:22									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai NYE: I think we all agree that there are human rights violations in China and that things could be better. The disagreement is with Jack's claim that China is the worst human rights offender, or one of the worst.

OK. You have freedom of speech? Really? I would hate to see what would happen to you if you were as open in your contempt of the leadership of the PRC as many Americans are about Bush.

quote: but for the most part, we have human rights that are on par, if not better than what Americans have...

	29-05-2003 09:31									#72
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I could post a few articles here too about Columbine, or the crime rate in L.A. or D.C., or whatever. And that's not going to prove anything either.

The truth is: all countries have systemic problems that are results of decades or even centuries of tradition, momentum, and necessity. In many cases, they are there because the alternative is even worse, and so we are all trying to work on these without breaking something else in the process. But pointing fingers at each other in derision and saying "you're the worst! you're the hellhole!" is hypocritical and unproductive.

As China stands now, it has made massive leaps and bounds in the last 20 years, and amazingly hasn't imploded in the process. Shrill and frenzied pointing at the remaining problems isn't exactly helping the already precarious situation.

	29-05-2003 09:35									#73
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan I could post a few articles here too about Columbine, or the crime rate in L.A. or D.C., or whatever. And that's not going to prove anything either.

Those are/were citizens. Not the government. Get those straight. There is a lot to criticise the US about, but comparing human rights in the two is silly. Just plain, vanilla silly. That is why I responded in this thread.

quote: The truth is: all countries have systemic problems that are results of decades or even centuries of tradition, momentum, and necessity. We are all trying to work on these without breaking something else in the process. But pointing fingers at each other in derision and saying "you're the worst! you're the hellhole!" is hypocritical and unproductive.

That is true. Unfortunately, it is all too common.

	29-05-2003 09:38									#74
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Those are/were citizens. Not the government. Get those straight. There is a lot to criticise the US about, but comparing human rights in the two is silly. Just plain, vanilla silly. That is why I responded in this thread.

I'm not saying that these two problems are the same. That analogy came up in the argument with Jack_www: I was giving him an example of another problem that's waaay overbloated by the foreign media.

Besides, it is the American government that allowed guns to be legal in the first place.

	29-05-2003 09:49									#75
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither OK. You have freedom of speech? Really? I would hate to see what would happen to you if you were as open in your contempt of the leadership of the PRC as many Americans are about Bush.

Nothing happens. I've taken part in protests against the Beijing government, such as the June 4 memorials for Tienanmien Square.

Mind you, there's nothing comparable to the high levels of contempt for Bush. Well, maybe for the local government, but not Beijing.

We have politicians and religious leaders speaking out against the Beijing government.

All varieties of religions and cults are practiced where UR and I live.

The problem with outside observers is that they perceive China as a monolith and they think that the Chinese government cracks down on every single thing in China. It's more complex than that.

The really funny thing is you still haven't figured it out. Here's a hint: I said Urban Ranger and I have these freedoms. But I didn't mention Ranskaldan. Do you get it now?

	29-05-2003 09:56									#76
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Besides, it is the American government that allowed guns to be legal in the first place.

No. It was and is the American people. For all their faults, only a fool would say that their government is the source of that particular problem. That's the big difference, the American government doesn't allow much of anything. The American people allow their government certain things.

btw, we have guns in Canada too. For now. Lots of them. And we'll always have them, because the biggest gun mart in the world is just so close... The government of Canada would be foolish to ever try to fight the wind.

We don't have the same problems with gun violence, for the most part. How do you figure that?

	29-05-2003 10:01									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Nothing happens. I've taken part in protests against the Beijing government, such as the June 4 memorials for Tienanmien Square. Mind you, there's nothing comparable to the high levels of contempt for Bush. Well, maybe for the local government, but not Beijing. We have politicians and religious leaders speaking out against the Beijing government. All varieties of religions and cults are practiced where UR and I live. The problem with outside observers is that they perceive China as a monolith and they think that the Chinese government cracks down on every single thing in China. It's more complex than that. The really funny thing is you still haven't figured it out. Here's a hint: I said Urban Ranger and I have these freedoms. But I didn't mention Ranskaldan. Do you get it now?

I'm finding all this hard to believe. Do you have laws in China that protect these rights?

	29-05-2003 10:06									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The really funny thing is you still haven't figured it out. Here's a hint: I said Urban Ranger and I have these freedoms. But I didn't mention Ranskaldan. Do you get it now?

No, I figured out a long time ago that China was as you describe. Now, what about the other billion or more people who don't live in Hong Kong and a few other 'enlightened' points?

	29-05-2003 10:08									#79
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, I figured out a long time ago that China was as you describe. Now, what about the other billion or more people who don't live in Hong Kong?

Their lives have become much freer, wealthier, and happier over the last 20 years, and will become even better over the next 20.

You can't jump from step 1 to step 100. The country would collapse like that. But you can walk, or even run. And China is running.

	29-05-2003 10:11									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm finding all this hard to believe. Do you have laws in China that protect these rights?

Yes, it is a Chinese law called the Basic Law that has been respected and upheld by the Chinese central government. It applies to the great Chinese city Hong Kong.

Some people will say "well that's Hong Kong" and they would be right. But the important thing to remember is that the PRC Central Government has not violated the Basic Law. If they were really as evil as some people on this thread suggest then they would have crushed the law.

Before 1997, a lot of these anti-China types were predicting doom and gloom for Hong Kong. They said the commies in Beijing would never respect the Basic Law. They were wrong.

	29-05-2003 10:12									#81
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Their lives have become much freer, wealthier, and happier over the last 20 years, and will become even better over the next 20. You can't jump from step 1 to step 100. The country would collapse like that. But you can walk, or even run. And China is running.

Wealth tends to be a liberating factor. Go, go, go!

	29-05-2003 10:16									#82
	Try travelling your own ****ing country. Things aren't pretty outside of HK Full PM-box? Change here!

...and here I thought that aside from British built Hong Kong and the poor emulation of such in other downtown centers - China is just one huge filthy slum of absolute poverty, dirt roads covered in trash, rusted bicycles from eye to eye, TANKS RUNNING OVER PEOPLE, and a sea of corrugated tin roofs held up by shotty wood framing. Surely this makes for a MUCH safer and politically lenient environment than the US?

Wait, maybe that doe

	29-05-2003 10:17									#83
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Their lives have become much freer, wealthier, and happier over the last 20 years, and will become even better over the next 20. You can't jump from step 1 to step 100. The country would collapse like that. But you can walk, or even run. And China is running.

Exactly. One of the problems faced by Mainland China is training enough lawyers and judges so that the rule of law can be established. These things take time.

There's also the problem of finding good administrators at the city and provincial level. The SARS problem is largely the fault of these low level civil servants who hid the problem from the national government.

China has done a great job moving from the Maoist system to a more open system. Just compare China over the last 20 years to Russia.

	29-05-2003 10:18									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka ...and here I thought that aside from British built Hong Kong and the poor emulation of such in other downtown centers - China is just one huge filthy slum of absolute poverty, dirt roads covered in trash, rusted bicycles from eye to eye, TANKS RUNNING OVER PEOPLE, and a sea of corrugated tin roofs held up by shotty wood framing. Surely this makes for a MUCH safer and politically lenient environment than the US? Wait, maybe that doe

Just when I thought everyone was nearing some sort of agreement.

I'll come back tomorrow to see how THIS turns out.

	29-05-2003 10:21									#85
	Re: Try travelling your own ****ing country. Things aren't pretty outside of HK Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Zylka China is just one huge filthy slum of absolute poverty, dirt roads covered in trash, rusted bicycles from eye to eye, TANKS RUNNING OVER PEOPLE, and a sea of corrugated tin roofs held up by shotty wood framing. Surely this makes for a MUCH safer and politically lenient environment than the US? Wait, maybe that doe

So Zylka, when were you in China?

	29-05-2003 10:21									#86
	Re: Re: Try travelling your own ****ing country. Things aren't pretty outside of HK Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai So Zylka, when were you in China?

Have fun.

	29-05-2003 10:26									#87
	Re: Re: Try travelling your own ****ing country. Things aren't pretty outside of HK Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai So Zylka, when were you in China?

1996. My father unfortunately had some returning business with your disasterous little "empire" and took me along as a kind of scare me straight lesson in how lucky I am. Aside from from the GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED TAXI CAB PROGRAM which supplied a non English speaking driver who thought it appropriate to drop us off at BIA instead of our hotel (12 miles away), I found the funniest part to be the shocking poverty and near helpless group mentality.

Good enough? By the way - So, when have YOU been to China? Doesn't sound like you've had much of the tour yet.

	29-05-2003 10:40									#88
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ranskaldan I am sorry to say this, but China is one of the worst offenders of Humand Rights in the world, and if you refuse to see that fact, then I dont know what I can do or say to change your mind. I know if I moved to CHina that I could not pratice my religion, or if i did i would end up in prison or worse.

As for the school shootings, those are crimes comited against other people by people they meet. And I cannot see how you can comparing the two when one is a crime commited againt someone by a fellow human, while the other is crimes commited by a government against its own people. CHINA ABUSES HUMAN RIGHTS, and I am sorry if it hurts you to hear that but its the truth. Chinese people are not the problem, its the government that rules them thats the problem.

And I did read your post.

Urban Ranger China is a member of the UN, and the UN has a charter with a list of various human rights and China has violated almost all of them. Also as for US troop shoting reporters on purpose please prove that statement and give me the proof that makes you say they shot reporters on purpose.

	29-05-2003 10:41									#89
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HAHAHAHA come on now, NOTHING? Seriously, have you ever visited your country outside of HK? Did you dare to stray out of the downtown areas? 80% of your country is like a big f*cking shanty town mess spilling out into a polluted harbour

I wouldn't want to be so truthful if you weren't all grouping together chanting love poems which praise your disaster area over the UNSAFE LIFE OF THE USA! BLACK PEOPLE CARRY GUNS OVER THERE

	29-05-2003 11:32									#90
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Zylka, I've only been to Kunming, Xian, Guangzhou, Beijing, Nanking, Shanghai, Tthe city where they make Tsingtao beer (Tientien?), Wusu (sp?), and Macau. So obviously I don't have your expertise.

Where exactly did you go in China?

Where did you see "a sea of corrugated tin roofs held up by shotty wood framing." I ask that because most of the cities I have seen have brick buildings, yes even in the older run-down areas.

Where did you see the "dirt roads covered in trash"? Surely not Beijing. The streets there are paved. As for trash, yes, I've seen lots of garbage, but just like in American cities, it is usually off to the side rather than covering the roads.

Where did you see "rusted bicycles from eye to eye"? The problem these days is the declining number of bicycles and the increased number of private cars. The days when the streets were filled with bike riders is long gone. But that's just my experience.

Please, tell us more about your trip. How long were you there? Where did you go? I'd really like to know because I have never been to any Chinese city that is "a shanty town spilling out into a polluted harbour."

Are you sure you went to China. Maybe you went to Hanoi, or was it Rio, or maybe it was Halifax.

Last edited by Tingkai on 29-05-2003 at 11:43