20-05-2003 03:39									#1
	SARS is getting worse not better. Remove this text

CNN is reporting that SARS is getting worse in much of east Asia while the Chinese government continues to play games with the crisis. Officially the Chinese claim the number of new infections is on the decline but a closer look shows the Chinese have just redefined the definition of SARS to exclude a people who are likely infected with the desiese.

When will the communists stop playing word games? Don't these officials know that it was their dilly-dallying at the beginning of the crisis which allowed things to spiral out of control? If they had attacked the problem head on the way the Communist Vietnamese had (irony isn't it?) then the desiese would just be a shadow of what it is now.

Please discuss.

	20-05-2003 03:47									#2
	Re: SARS is getting worse not better. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin CNN is reporting that SARS is getting worse in much of east Asia while the Chinese government continues to play games with the crisis. Officially the Chinese claim the number of new infections is on the decline but a closer look shows the Chinese have just redefined the definition of SARS to exclude a people who are likely infected with the desiese. When will the communists stop playing word games? Don't these officials know that it was their dilly-dallying at the beginning of the crisis which allowed things to spiral out of control? If they had attacked the problem head on the way the Communist Vietnamese had (irony isn't it?) then the desiese would just be a shadow of what it is now. Please discuss.

Considering that in late April the US govt similarly adjusted their definition of exactly what a "probable" SARS case is which brought the number of cases in the US down from 200 to 40, I hardly call this playing games.

Games are over. The Chinese government is propagandizing this as a war at home, and I'm sure you've heard about the draconian measures in place to keep the fight going. If you call this "dilly-dallying" then I don't know what serious work is.

	20-05-2003 03:54									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

We could of seen this not reach such proportions if the Chinese government took steps in the first place. The Chinese government was kicked in the behind for not doing anything at first and practically ignoring it. But they managed to get on their feet.

The virus is controlled everywhere except Taiwan. Taiwan having better infrastructure than mainland China will be abled to put the disease under caps in due time.

	20-05-2003 03:55									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Get your facts straight. From the BBC numbers of dead by country:

Mainland China: 289
Hong Kong: 251
Taiwan: 40
Singapore: 28
Canada: 23

Knowing SARS kills around 4%-5% if the US had the number of infections you claim then we would expect to see around a dozen dead people. We don't so your numbers must be in error.

	20-05-2003 03:58									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Pervious reports have said the government had officially implaced quarentines in infected areas but reporters have showing videos of migrant workers going in and out of those areas at their pleasure. I'm not questioning the offical policy what I, and may others, are questioning is the governments determination to see those policies carried out.

	20-05-2003 03:59									#6
	Got spare money?

Yes, if China was more competent in the beginning those numbers would not be so high. You have to look at number of infected daily, not the number in total dead. However tragic China did not do enough in the beginning however is bringing the disease under control.

Currently, Taiwan actually holds the largest amount infected daily.

	20-05-2003 03:59									#7
	Put an end to popups!

Isn't Sava's mom working on SARS? Sava, What's up??

	20-05-2003 04:15									#8
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Get your facts straight. From the BBC numbers of dead by country: Mainland China: 289 Hong Kong: 251 Taiwan: 40 Singapore: 28 Canada: 23 Knowing SARS kills around 4%-5% if the US had the number of infections you claim then we would expect to see around a dozen dead people. We don't so your numbers must be in error.

I wasn't saying that the US was playing games - I was saying that your argument about China playing games is invalid unless you also admit that the US was doing the same thing in late April.

	20-05-2003 04:18									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Pervious reports have said the government had officially implaced quarentines in infected areas but reporters have showing videos of migrant workers going in and out of those areas at their pleasure. I'm not questioning the offical policy what I, and may others, are questioning is the governments determination to see those policies carried out.

Infected areas?

If you're talking about smaller locations like universities or hospitals, then those quarantines are very strict - and I think you know what strict means. If you're talking about larger locations like entire neighbourhoods or cities, then unfortunately it is impossible to impose any sort of quarantine on such areas.

	20-05-2003 04:46									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Now the Chinese government has alway been big on censorship of the press, but, the recent expansion of censorship to internet chat rooms and any web sites dealing with SARS is some what worrying. I mean why on Earth censor information about a illness unless you are trying to hide how screwed up and ineffective your actions are?

Here is a BBC article about Chinese censorship in general as well as the recent expansion to include the world SARS on internet chatrooms and search engines.

	20-05-2003 05:45									#11
	Got spare money?

I'm not defending china here, I'd just like to point out an answer to that question: governments have the collective intelligence of a squeegy.

	20-05-2003 06:19									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by skywalker I'm not defending china here, I'd just like to point out an answer to that question: governments have the collective intelligence of a squeegy.

True, but some governments have smaller squeegies then others.

	20-05-2003 06:30									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

this all surprises you b/c ???????

	20-05-2003 07:28									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Isn't Sava's mom working on SARS? Sava, What's up??

Her company is working with other entities and agencies on a vaccine. She's not directly involved because she's the director of sales... but I get tidbits of news every now and then.

	20-05-2003 07:43									#15
	Re: SARS is getting worse not better. Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin CNN is reporting that SARS is getting worse in much of east Asia while the Chinese government continues to play games with the crisis.

1. Why did you link to the BBC when you said "CNN is reporting..."?

2. Worse is much of East Asia? This is rubbish. From the linked article:

quote: Epidemiologists from 16 Sars-hit regions agreed that most of the world's outbreaks are coming under control - although difficult struggles remain, especially in mainland China and Taiwan.

Fearmongering

	20-05-2003 08:44									#16
	Re: SARS is getting worse not better. Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin When will the communists stop playing word games? Don't these officials know that it was their dilly-dallying at the beginning of the crisis which allowed things to spiral out of control? If they had attacked the problem head on the way the Communist Vietnamese had (irony isn't it?) then the desiese would just be a shadow of what it is now.

This isn't a political issue. The capitalistic government in Hong Kong screwed up big time and that's a big reason why SARS spread to other countries. It took the HK gov't weeks to order full quarrantines.

The situation in Hong Kong appears to be under control.

As for word games, it could be argued that SARS was not as dangerous as reported in the sense that it has infected a very small number of people. About 1,500 in Hong Kong out of a population of about 7 million. If the HK government had responded quickly, the number of infected people would probably have been cut in half.

Crisis? What crisis?

	20-05-2003 10:15									#17
	SLOPS Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai As for word games, it could be argued that SARS was not as dangerous as reported in the sense that it has infected a very small number of people. About 1,500 in Hong Kong out of a population of about 7 million. If the HK government had responded quickly, the number of infected people would probably have been cut in half. Crisis? What crisis?

This reminds me of the following gem I have received through e-mail:

quote: The World Health Organisation today issued a new warning against non-essential travel to the entire Western hemisphere following renewed concerns about the spread of Severe Loss of Perspective Syndrome (SLOPS). Officials are warning travellers not to visit the UK, the US, almost all of Western Europe, and Canada, following further outbreaks of the disease,which has led to mass panic among the media, thousands of ecstatic children being kept out of school by their credulous and moronic parents, and increased profits for DIY stores as the idiot public rush to bulk-buy face masks and boiler suits. A WHO spokesman said, "You'd be much better off going to somewhere like Thailand or China, because all you've got to worry about there is SARS, and let's face it, you're about as likely to die from that as you are to get kicked to death by a gang of zombie nuns." The SARS virus has now claimed a staggering 500 lives in only six months, which makes it considerably more deadly than, say, malaria, which only kills around 3000 people every single day. Malaria, however, mainly effects only darkies what speak foreign, whereas SARS has made at least one English person feel a bit iffy for a couple of days, and is therefore considered much more serious. The spread of SLOPS has now reached pandemic proportions, with many high-level politicians seemingly affected by the disease. The rapid spread of SLOPS has been linked to the end of the war in Iraq and the need for Western leaders to give the public something to worry about. Otherwise, they might start asking uncomfortable questions about domestic issues, and that simply would not do.

	20-05-2003 19:16									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Wow! That's bad satire. Who wrote that?

	20-05-2003 20:05									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Sava Her company is working with other entities and agencies on a vaccine. She's not directly involved because she's the director of sales... but I get tidbits of news every now and then.

Do you know how they are looking at the future of SARS? If they are investing in developing a vaccine, they must think that it is eithier going to be around awhile in large numbers or is a critical danger now. She would probably know what kind of market they are projecting for a vaccine and that could tell us a lot.

	20-05-2003 21:33									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Now the Chinese government has alway been big on censorship of the press, but, the recent expansion of censorship to internet chat rooms and any web sites dealing with SARS is some what worrying. I mean why on Earth censor information about a illness unless you are trying to hide how screwed up and ineffective your actions are?

Huh?

What kind of logical leap is this??

America restricted reporting on the War in Iraq because they wanted to hide what screw-ups they are?

At the rate that the Western media is gloating over the loss of life in China, I wouldn't want to divulge all the information myself.

	20-05-2003 21:49									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Western media is gloating over it?

	21-05-2003 00:36									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

No, there has been no gloating by anyone. There has, however, been a whole lot of finger pointing as the Chinese government failed to take some very elementry steps to guard against outbreak.

Ran: BTW The U.S. never restricted any reporter from printing anything. They did make people who travelled with military units not give away militarially sensitive information like troop strengths, locations, etc. The also advised people not to travel in a war zone as, after all, bombs were failing there and people were getting killed. That's totally different from the day in day out censorship and repression the Chinese Communist government beats its citizens with.

	21-05-2003 01:16									#23
	Re: Re: SARS is getting worse not better. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai This isn't a political issue. The capitalistic government in Hong Kong screwed up big time and that's a big reason why SARS spread to other countries. It took the HK gov't weeks to order full quarrantines.

Tingy, the government in Hong Kong is just a puppet controlled by Bejing.

	21-05-2003 01:20									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin No, there has been no gloating by anyone. There has, however, been a whole lot of finger pointing as the Chinese government failed to take some very elementry steps to guard against outbreak.

That was a few months ago. Nothing that the Chinese government is doing now is perpetuating the outbreak, yet every death and incident is regarded as more "oversight" and, worse, "concealment of information".

quote: Ran: BTW The U.S. never restricted any reporter from printing anything. They did make people who travelled with military units not give away militarially sensitive information like troop strengths, locations, etc. ...... That's totally different from the day in day out censorship and repression the Chinese Communist government beats its citizens with.

The first example has a contradiction.

The second example uses emotionally charged language.

Take those two things out and we have two scenarios that are the same. [SARS and Iraq]

	21-05-2003 01:27									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ran, well the US does not run over its civilians with tanks. Your pathetic and completely incompetent government does.

The Chinese government was inconmpetent with handling SARs. Sure it is under control but there would of been far fewer deaths if the Chinese didn't cover it up for the first several weeks.

	21-05-2003 01:36									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Fez Ran, well the US does not run over its civilians with tanks. Your pathetic and completely incompetent government does. The Chinese government was inconmpetent with handling SARs. Sure it is under control but there would of been far fewer deaths if the Chinese didn't cover it up for the first several weeks.

Here we go.

the US does not run over its civilians with tanks.

1) The US hasn't exactly been refraining from bombing other countries. China, on the other hand, has refrained from running people over with tanks for a full 14 years, and invading other countries for about 40. And 1989 was just about 16 years after America pulled out of Vietnam - and we know what nice things they did there.

Your pathetic and completely incompetent government does.

2) There is no connection between "running people over with tanks" (or bombing people, for that matter) with "pathetic and incompetent". Unless you wish to suggest that past empires like the Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, and the presentday USA are all incompetent for any number of incompassionate acts they might have committed.

And the above two points are connected to SARS because...?

The Chinese government was inconmpetent with handling SARs. Sure it is under control but there would of been far fewer deaths if the Chinese didn't cover it up for the first several weeks.

3) Yes, one crisis makes the Cinese government "incompetent". That means that USA is downright idiotic for having Saddam Hussein backfire on them, right? Actually no. Countries make bad decisions some times. They support the wrong cronies and pursue the wrong policies. Unless the government subsequently collapses, it is not "incompetent".



Hence, your points, which randomly connect cruelty, error, and incompetence, are utterly moot.

	21-05-2003 01:41									#27
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The Chinese also invaded Vietnam in the later 1970s to punish them for invading Cambodia. You know about that?

The Chinese government also has let the budget for health care (even I acknowledge it is necesary) go down the drain.

	21-05-2003 01:42									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan The first example has a contradiction. The second example uses emotionally charged language. Take those two things out and we have two scenarios that are the same. [SARS and Iraq]

There was no contradiction, the language is hardly emotional, and how on Earth could anyone claim withholding vital military information is the same as the Chinese government's list of more then 400 different banded persons, topics, and ideas? Are you attempting to say it is a military necissity that the Communist government keep it's people ignorant of SARS, its spread, and which government officials were so incompetent that this happend?

If so then can you please tell me why banning access to the BBC, CNN, anything to do with Taiwanese Independence or the Taiwanese government's concerns about reunification, the Fulong Gong, as well as dozens and dozens of other topics/places are banned?

The same my behind!

	21-05-2003 01:52									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

Half your points are utterly unconnected to the SARS crisis.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There was no contradiction, the language is hardly emotional, and how on Earth could anyone claim withholding vital military information is the same as the Chinese government's list of more then 400 different banded persons, topics, and ideas?

Irrelevant to the topic, which is, by the way, SARS.

quote: Are you attempting to say it is a military necissity that the Communist government keep it's people ignorant of SARS, its spread, and which government officials were so incompetent that this happend?

Quite so. The Chinese economy and the image of the nation has suffered enough as it is.

Besides, it is a matter of self-survival for the Chinese government to contain the crisis anyway. Unless the top officials are ridiculously stupid, they would be draconianly pushing their subordinates to contain the epidemic. Heads have already rolled over this.

Hence, claiming that the government of China is somehow continuing to slack off while hiding this - is quite illogical.

quote: If so then can you please tell me why banning access to the BBC, CNN, anything to do with Taiwanese Independence or the Taiwanese government's concerns about reunification, the Fulong Gong, as well as dozens and dozens of other topics/places are banned?

Again, utterly unconnected.

If you want to talk about the legitimacy of the Chinese government, start another thread. Stop dragging in random points that have nothing to do with this.

	21-05-2003 14:07									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If so then can you please tell me why banning access to the BBC, CNN, anything to do with Taiwanese Independence or the Taiwanese government's concerns about reunification, the Fulong Gong, as well as dozens and dozens of other topics/places are banned?

I am not aware that BBC and CNN are currently banned. I am sure mindseye can fill us in.

Taiwan Independence: Hardly any different from the US's handling of the Freeman movement in, which advocated independence of Montana. Or what about the Civil War? I mean, it's not the US letting part of the country go away so easily, right?

Fulong Gong: Waco, Branch Davidian. Enough said.