29-05-2003 12:36									#91
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I don't know, perhaps you'd like to edit that once more before I address it?

OOOHHHH!!!

	29-05-2003 12:56									#92
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Simple question Zylka: Where did you go? I have a funny feeling you went to Rio.

	29-05-2003 13:10									#93
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Yes.

	29-05-2003 13:15									#94
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In other words, you have never been to China and you don't know what you're talking about. Same as always.

	29-05-2003 13:16									#95
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Yeah, that's right. I was actually in Rio

Also, an Iraqi farmer shot down an Apache so the Americans don't know what they're doing. WELCOME TO THE NEW ORDER!

	29-05-2003 13:21									#96
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Time for your meds.

	29-05-2003 13:25									#97
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Did you just say time for your small chinese dlck and pathetically insecure nationalism?

	29-05-2003 13:41									#98
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Those are/were citizens. Not the government. Get those straight. There is a lot to criticise the US about, but comparing human rights in the two is silly. Just plain, vanilla silly. That is why I responded in this thread.

Oh really? Certainly the Chinese government hasn't been profiling minorities. They hasn't invaded any foreign counties, dropping tons of bombs, leaving behind unexploded bomblets, radioactive DU cores, hidden landmines, and who knows what.

Are you talking about human rights violations NYE?

	29-05-2003 13:46									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Urban Ranger China is a member of the UN, and the UN has a charter with a list of various human rights and China has violated almost all of them.

Cite?

	29-05-2003 13:50									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka Did you just say time for your small chinese dlck and pathetically insecure nationalism?

It doesn't surprise me a bit that you resort to personal attacks and broadstroke demonisations to replace actual intelligence and rational arguments.

	29-05-2003 14:10									#101
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UR: Zylka has some type of mental health problem. He seems to lose it every once and a while. Just ignore him.

	29-05-2003 14:25									#102
	Re: Try travelling your own ****ing country. Things aren't pretty outside of HK Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Zylka ...and here I thought that aside from British built Hong Kong and the poor emulation of such in other downtown centers - China is just one huge filthy slum of absolute poverty, dirt roads covered in trash, rusted bicycles from eye to eye, TANKS RUNNING OVER PEOPLE, and a sea of corrugated tin roofs held up by shotty wood framing.

Doesn't sound like the same China I live in.
When were you here? 1996? Oh, no wonder. That's ancient history for China. Things have changed dramatically since then.

	29-05-2003 15:17									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It doesn't surprise me a bit that you resort to personal attacks and broadstroke demonisations to replace actual intelligence and rational arguments.

Sure, because we all know insulting someone because of a medical condition isn't such. F*ck, you Chinese only see what you want to - I love it!

	29-05-2003 15:18									#104
	Re: Re: Try travelling your own ****ing country. Things aren't pretty outside of HK Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by mindseye Doesn't sound like the same China I live in. When were you here? 1996? Oh, no wonder. That's ancient history for China. Things have changed dramatically since then.

Oh. The seven year wonder, I guess

	29-05-2003 18:09									#105
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quote: Getting profiled for being a minority? Getting immolated by ruffians for being a homeless? Face it, for the average citizen, China is a much, much safer place.

You're the first Chinese person I've heard to say this. Usually it is the opposite. The Chinese profile minorities more than most nation and are far more discrimnating. Mainland and Hong Kong are a huge difference over there. Overseas Chinese even more so. There's all the regional pride in the mainland. The Chinese are generally racist against Chinese as well as everyone else. Homeless are even considered citizens in China. In fact, most of the truly homeless I saw usually looked badly beaten.

One of the first warnings I got when I went to China was to becareful. Never to go out into the countryside alone for fear of being robbed and killed.

But true there is less likely to be a lunatic with a gun going around shooting people. I hear they prefer bombs there anyway.

	29-05-2003 18:12									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Urban Ranger and I live in the People's Republic of China. We have freedom of religion and freedom of speech. We can speak out against the government without fear. No one gets tortured. There are some problems with racism and poverty, but for the most part, we have human rights that are on par, if not better than what Americans have. The Beijing government that you think is so evil has not overtly interfered with our rights.

Is this Hong Kong or China? Two different worlds.

	29-05-2003 18:15									#107
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Their lives have become much freer, wealthier, and happier over the last 20 years, and will become even better over the next 20. You can't jump from step 1 to step 100. The country would collapse like that. But you can walk, or even run. And China is running.

Seems like the Chinese are saying that everything is fine and ignoring the problem. Which is very uncharacteristic of them.

	29-05-2003 18:26									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Cite?

Here

quote: Certainly the Chinese government hasn't been profiling minorities.

Here

	29-05-2003 18:29									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Zylka, I've only been to Kunming, Xian, Guangzhou, Beijing, Nanking, Shanghai, Tthe city where they make Tsingtao beer (Tientien?), Wusu (sp?), and Macau. So obviously I don't have your expertise.

You should have gone to Suzhou. I'd have loved to see that city back when it more glorious. The canals would have been breathtaking beautiful rather than the open sewers they are now. I guess they are still breathtaking.

I've been to Xian, Beijing, Nanking, and Shanghai as well. They are all very modern cities and are hardly representative of most of China. Even then, they have their 'shanty town' districts. Though Xian is too dry for me.

Hangzhou is beautiful. At least half of it. But that half is truly gorgeous. I look forward to going back.

Let's see. I've visited some smaller villages during my medical tour. One 'hospital' looked like somethig you'd expect in a poor African village only more tea. What was the name of that one town I taught at for a weekend? I forget. But as nice as they were I wouldn't want to live there. I wouldn't call it polluted or dirty, just old. I was very greatful to be working a city there after that experience. Sichuan province is interesting. There are many villages there that seem trapped in time. No electricity or running water. Also out of the way of the government. They seemed to be very happy and friendly people though. They were more Tibetan than Chinese, however.

	29-05-2003 18:46									#110
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DinoDoc, The Amnesty International article you cited clearly shows that UR is a victim of propoganda in his own country.

UR, you read that didn't you? I can only hope that you and your fellow residents can one day have government by the people for the people. Until then, keep your head down and keep yelling that everything is just great in China. We know they are watching...we understand why you must keep up your facade. Good Luck.

	29-05-2003 21:22									#111
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Is this Hong Kong or China? Two different worlds.

Yes, two different worlds, but Hong Kong is part of China. If the Central Government was truely evil, as some people suggest, they would have squash Hong Kong.

	29-05-2003 21:27									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www As for the school shootings, those are crimes comited against other people by people they meet. And I cannot see how you can comparing the two when one is a crime commited againt someone by a fellow human, while the other is crimes commited by a government against its own people. CHINA ABUSES HUMAN RIGHTS, and I am sorry if it hurts you to hear that but its the truth. Chinese people are not the problem, its the government that rules them thats the problem. And I did read your post.

Well apparently you missed the point in it.

I brought up school shootings because like human rights abuses in China, these are problems that seem overblown when viewed from outside the country. I'm sure you agree that it's ridiculous to say America is unlivable because of the crime in some inner cities. Yes, this crime is a very big problem, just as human rights abuses in China is. But it's nowhere near what the foreign media makes it out to be. More importantly, both problems are not easily solvable, as they are the results of years of cultural momentum and will take only years of slow subtle change to reverse.

Once again, let me restate: I'm not going to deny that there are human rights abuses in China, and I'm sure you're not going to deny the existence of schoolyard shootings in America either. But these problems will take many years to reverse, they are being reversed as we speak, and they are nowhere near the levels that the foreign media makes them out to be.

quote: Originally posted by Dashi Seems like the Chinese are saying that everything is fine and ignoring the problem. Which is very uncharacteristic of them.

Words are just words. Why don't you try looking at the actual trends in China? Since you've been to Beijing, Shanghai etc I'm sure you know what great leaps and bounds they have made. How is this "saying everything's fine and ignoring the problem"?

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 UR, you read that didn't you? I can only hope that you and your fellow residents can one day have government by the people for the people. Until then, keep your head down and keep yelling that everything is just great in China. We know they are watching...we understand why you must keep up your facade. Good Luck.

Damn! We really should have used this argument during the Iraq War.

"We know that you'll be exposed as unpatriotic... we know your neighbours will slash your tires and call you French, and they'll shoot or kidnap your children on their way to school... just keep screaming WAR. We understand."

This is known as the Poisoning the Well fallacy, my friend, and unfortunately simply goes to show your ignorance of logic and reasoning.

	29-05-2003 21:34									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Yes, two different worlds, but Hong Kong is part of China. If the Central Government was truely evil, as some people suggest, they would have squash Hong Kong.

They are evil but they are not stupid. Hong Kong's economy represents a huge percentage of the Chinese economy so they don't want to kill the goose which lays the Golden Eggs.

	29-05-2003 21:38									#114
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And the reason why they have left Macau alone is?

	29-05-2003 21:42									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Yes, two different worlds, but Hong Kong is part of China. If the Central Government was truely evil, as some people suggest, they would have squash Hong Kong.

So in order to be evil you just have to squash Hong Kong. Tibet isn't enough?

	29-05-2003 21:46									#116
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Seems like the Chinese are saying that everything is fine and ignoring the problem. Which is very uncharacteristic of them.

No one here is ignoring the problems. Like Ran says, the problems are gigantic. Look at the corruption. It's wide spread. The Central Government is cracking down on it. They haven't got rid of it, but they are making headway.

And look at SARS. Top officials in Beijing were fired. That might seem minor to a Westerner, but it represented a big change within China.

The biggest thing the Mainland needs is the establishment of rule of law. For that, they need honest, trained and experienced police, lawyers and judges.

Western democracy did not spring up over night. It took hundreds of years. The expectations for China should be placed within that context and it should be acknowledged that things are getting better.

	29-05-2003 21:46									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai And the reason why they have left Macau alone is?

The same. Crushing Macao would make people in HK think one country two systems wasn't working. You see they are evil but really only in the poor hungry, you must do exactly what I tell you or else sort of way.

	29-05-2003 21:46									#118
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Words are just words. Why don't you try looking at the actual trends in China? Since you've been to Beijing, Shanghai etc I'm sure you know what great leaps and bounds they have made. How is this "saying everything's fine and ignoring the problem"?

I never said that China isn't making improvements. But there are certain things that seem to be ignored or denied. SARS was denied as a problem until the WHO finally put some pressure on China. Let's not forget about AIDS as well. I remember watching a news program in China stating that they specificly don't test for HIV because it is not a concern there.

	29-05-2003 21:53									#119
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi So in order to be evil you just have to squash Hong Kong. Tibet isn't enough?

I think the Central Government is trying to avoid the chaos that occurred in the former USSR. Things are a lot worse there. So any group that advocates independence is going to get squashed.

The Central Government is also displaying the common delusion that it is bringing "civilization" to Tibet. They're treating Tibetans just the way Canada treated its native people.

From what I can see, the Mainland people believe that Tibet was an old feudal economy where the priests lived like kings while most people lived in poverty. The Mainland people, and some Hong Kong people, that they are helping the Tibetans.

It's an old story that we've seen happen throughout the world.

Does that make the Central Government evil, misguided or both?

	29-05-2003 21:54									#120
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PRC has a pattern of trying to ignore health issues and hoping they will go away. Do you folks remember the Aids tanted blood incident from a few years back? State hospitals were reusing needles, medical tubing, and even giving transfusions without any screening of the blood supply!! The official line was aids isn't a problem here so why waste the money? Then they found out that aids was a problem and that perhaphes tens of thousands got aids because the government was trying to save pennies.

The PRC needs to stop just reacting to health issues when groups like the WHO force them to and start working on prevention like most other countries do.